Why is Saber such an honorfag in Fate when it contradicts her entire backstory?

Why is Saber such an honorfag in Fate when it contradicts her entire backstory?

Didn't she not only place being a proper ruler above everything else, before being a knight, before being a human, but was so coldly rational in her judgment that it eventually alienated her from her people and caused her downfall? Shouldn't she understand the utilitarian mindset better than anyone else? And yet throughout all of Fate she prances about spouting nonsense about chivalry and honor when as a supposed "perfect ruler" she should be well above those things.

>being an edge lord causes the downfall of her kingdom
>hurr why does Saber think it's a bad idea

Doylist: Urobutcher, despite being one a few people besides Nasu who can write a good Fate story, is a huge edgelore and railroaded the character to create the message he wanted.
Watsonian: Saber was basically an old hag trying to LARP as her honorable Saber Lily teenage self that didn't yet have the responsibilities of the throne crashing down on her in Zero. When she sees how that gets her she goes back to robro in Fate

It has been ages since I read the novel, but I don't remember her being much of an honorfag in them, aside from stuff like not wanting to kill civilians for mana, and I place the blame on her being such an honorfag in Zero to Urobochi fetish of breaking righteous girls.

>being an edge lord causes the downfall of her kingdom
she was never an edgelord, tho

>daddy please love me
>lol fuck off

>Dude shows up to your motorcycle vigilante gang
>Never takes off his helmet but he knows how to fight and seems alright
>Few years later
>Bought to take on that Italian asshole a few miles down
>Dude takes his helmet off and declares he is the child of a chick who fished your sperm out of a trash can and you must declare the motorcycle gang goes to him when you die
>Obviously tell him to fuck off
>Come back and hes burnt the fucking place to the ground and raped your wife
>You are the edgelord here

yep, not seeing it

She goes straight from Camlann to the 4th HGW. Then she goes back to Camlann, and then to the 5th HGW. Her experiences with unique and different sets of morality led to a limited change in perspective in the still-living, still-learning character.

Saber being the perfect king is entirely an informed trait tacked on to fellate her and is never actually explored in any sort of depth nor does it impact her character in any sort of manner.

She's entirely defined by the tragedy of Camelot, not what came before the tragedy.

Anybody not retarded would clearly recognize this person was crazy and unstable and realize that drastic measures would be needed to neutralize the problem they posed. Either exile/kill them or actually put in the elbow grease to address their emotional issues so they don't become a problem in a future if you really insist on keeping them around.

Instead Arturia just ignored the problem and let Mordred continue doing knight things after their confrontation until shit went sideways.

Ironically Lion King did both those things and not only emotionally manipulated Mordred to be her executioner but also ensured that she would eventually kill herself from overexertion due to the """gift""" she gave her, getting rid of the problem once and for all.

The apple clearly doesn't fall far from the tree.
Both Arturia and Mordred are huge fuckups.

>exile/kill them
>avoid being an edgelord by going full edgelord

You might as well ask how Rin grew up to be a good person when she was raised as a magus for the first seven years of her life and by a shady priest for the next decade.

Urobuchi is a hack who tried to downplay Saber so he could wank Iskandar.

Except that if that was the case, there'd be a clear flow in character from Camelot->Zero->FSN. Instead, Camelot and FSN align with other and Zero is the odd one out with Saber feeling and acting like an outright different character (since she was literally written by someone else)

But Rin is a terrible person who just pretends to be good. See how she behaves in HF.

>See how she behaves in HF
You mean a good person who just pretends to be terrible?

It's the opposite. Rin is a goody two shoes who tries to act like a hardcore edgy Magus but no matter how hard she forces herself to she cannot bring herself to do it.

>See how she behaves in HF.
This is a prime example of this situation. Despite all the crap that's going she can't bring herself to kill Sakura because she loves her sister and prioritizes her over her muh magus mindset.

>Why is Saber such an honorfag in Fate when it contradicts her entire backstory?
In F/SN she'll straight up murder whoever doesn't give her the grail.
There's an ending where Kotomine offers her the grail and she kills Shirou for it. This happens if you don't spend enough time with her throughout the route.

Fate/Zero had her turned into an honourfag but that's urobuchi for you, needed something to taint.

I guess you didn't take the geass bad end then.

And I guess you didn't notice how in every bad end where Rin goes muh magus mindset she ends up breaking sooner or later. It's called a bad end for a reason.

I'm just saying she can actually kill Sakura (you said she couldn't) and you don't get to know how it feels for her, because it ends right there.

>and you don't get to know how it feels for her, because it ends right there.
Except we do, because we see it happening in other bad ends.

>inb4 t-the situation was different so she won't feel bad about it this time!

I agree she will probably feel bad, but my point is that she is capable of killing her own sister

>And yet throughout all of Fate she prances about spouting nonsense about chivalry and honor when as a supposed "perfect ruler" she should be well above those things.

Go back to Beast's Lair. It's obvious you didn't play the VN.

>I have not read Camelot

>where Rin goes muh magus mindset she ends up breaking sooner or later.
But we don't get to see that part, because it's never stated in the VN. You're making it up.

>razed villages full of her own people so she could claim their farmland for her army without any display of remorse
Saber was a tyrant in life, only in fate can she pretend to be the person she wanted to, being a just knight in zero and a maiden in stay night

did he kill his own in the process, or just tell them to pack their shit?

Why is saber known as a legendary king if she sucked that much at being a ruler? Was she so good at winning battles that people forgot that she was shit?
I'm probably missing something important.

Because she didn't suck, gilfag. She was an excellent ruler and her people were weirded out by how perfect she was. There's even a scene in Apocrypha about that.

Some people can leave a lasting impression, even if they ultimately failed in the end, like Vlad.

Urobuchi wrote her that way even though it contradicted what we had seen of her in FSN because he loves to break honorable girls and it also gave the rest of the characters an excuse to shit on her, which they did repeatedly.

There are multiple bad endings where Rin kills Sakura though. Rin can be much more ruthless than you give her credit for.

She had daddy issues? Is this mentioned somewhere?

No, her son (female) has daddy issues.

>"bad" endings
I dislike Sakura as a character and a concept. Just the kind of pornographic teenage fantasy nonsense that kills a story

She is idealistic to the bone, but she understands what needs to be done and do it.

I dunno, it's made quite clear that she is an experiment and that her experiences are terrifying. The movies go even more in depth with showing that Zouken has all sorts of insectoid creatures like giant spiders and the like, which makes it even am sadder knowing Sakura was four years old having to deal with his bullshit because of her negligent birth parents.

Any instances of sexual abuse with Sakura is offscreen and described as harmful and hurtful, not like you have a Sumika like scene where she is getting off on the familiars, and one scene in particular where she is low on magical energy describes it as her suffering, as the familiars are running through her organs, choking her and her fainting from lack of air.

I mean hell, if you get off on the idea of a young girl being hurt and violated from creatures like what Zouken has, that feed off rotting corpses as I mentioned before, in pits of vomit, gore, and whatever else, then it'd be YOU that is fucked in the head.

I always thought people who said her backstory is too much are kinda just dumb, the setting itself lends us stories of abuse that magi do to their progeny all the time. Magi are fucked up.

Blame the Urobutcher for her characterization in Zero.

In F/SN, she was still chivalric but driven for her own purpose. She didnt act dishonorable to anyone but maintaining her chivalric code to the utmost wasnt her primary focus. Heck, even in her legend she is known for doing dishonorable things since it was one of these things that meant she lost Caliburn.

Urobutcher made her autistic over her chivalry in Zero which was a huge blunder on his part.

Artoria wasnt a fuckup. It was all in her head. She was actually very sucessful and lead a mostly peaceful and idyllic rule whilst there was chaos flowing all around outside her Kingdom.

Nice 20/20 hindsight there. Artoria had much bigger fish to fry at that time than worrying about Mordred's bullshit as she was literally leaving for war at the time

I think the point, and this was brought up in the Banquet of Kings in Zero and was an irrefutable point, that a ruler needs to lead the people, and she was just a martyr. Not meeting her people and her close ones around her face to face, and pretending Camelot was a bed of roses despite the prophecy she saw, was her downfall. Putting a lid on something that stinks doesn't stop it from stinking.

The fault lies equally on her and the people. People can't expect that a hero should always shoulder them 24/7 and be a human at the same time. And heroes are at their core, human, with human failings. A similiar theory can be applied to Shirou, where he should balance having a life and helping others.

So you havnt read the VN. Thanks for clarifying.

Rin is possibly the nicest person in the F/SN universe.

She is good deep down, but not acknowledging the problem that Rin does have psychological issues with dealing with things that don't fit into her set of self imposed guidelines about being a magus, and that lots of times, she fucks up bad because of this. She is embarrassed about anything to do with Sakura, as is shown in the other routes and tends to just go out of sorts regarding her. Her rudeness instead of having a polite, discreet discussion with her in the Fate route is one example, and in HF for one scene, Sister IV, where Sakura brings up reasonable worry over usage of Archer's arm, Rin went from being honest about her feelings and worry for Shirou to "Shirou's mine to use as I please, go back to your room." That dismissive and outright hurtful thing was part and parcel for why tension between her and her sister got worse and worse.

In fact, I was elated when Shirou pointed it out to her, but then he quickly praised her as a good big sister before finishing the job and really hammering home being honest. If anything, I think that was what was weak about HF, seeing Rin's issues, but Nasu trying his best to keep Rin as an ideal hurt that narrative point.


Not bring cognizant of that would be the same as not acknowledging that Sakura, even recognizing her internal bitterness, loved Rin and did many times, attempt to bridge their estrangement.

If you only see one part of the situation, you're fulfilling an agenda based on bias, like that other dude is doing calling Rin a bitch.

>her backstory
>Zero
Fuck off

Well, mordred has all the right too kick her dads butt.

>pornographic teenage fantasy
Anyone who thinks Sakura being utterly defiled and infested by worms or abused by Shinji was ever intended to be erotic or appealing in any way is either completely retarded or fucked in the head. The narration does a poor job of representing Sakura's character but anytime her abuse is addressed it's appropriately portrayed as anywhere from morbid to horrific. Even when it becomes part of the justification for her H-scenes (the infamous "this lewd body that desires men" line) the tone is completely different from Saber and Rin's H-scenes.
The worst you could say is that her "victimhood" is being "fetishized" but that's still a fucking dumb thing to complain about, there isn't a man alive who doesn't want to comfort a girl who has suffered when he couldn't be there for her, and that's the core of their physical romance.

>20/20 hindsight
That's called common sense from where I stand. It was just another case of Seiba not "getting" people. She probably expected Moedred to suck it up and get over it in 3 seconds, without even breaking her poker face - just like she would have done.
But alas, she forgot that not everyone is an android.

>Rin is possibly the nicest person in the F/SN universe.

I wish saber didn't exist

underrated

You just proved that Rin was actually nice. Not being able to understand someone yet tries to understand and do something to make that someone feel better is better than being able to understand yet doesn't do anything at all. Hell, there are even other people that say they understand others yet they actually don't.

Also, normal people will just brush off someone if he/she didn't experience someone's circumstances saying that he's/she's just edgy. Rin's actions are good examples on what to do in that situation.