Sakurasou

What's more important to succeed: raw talent or hard work?

Raw talent.

Hard work.

Hard work beats talent when talent fails to work hard

I would go raw on left and hard on right.

Raw talent. You can work as hard as you'd like, but you're never going to be a doctor or an actor or an artist if you don't have the foundation of raw talent to compliment your efforts.

If working hard was all it took to succeed then the drones and wageslaves would rule the Earth.

Talent + hard work like Mashiro

Talent + Hard work > Hard work > Squandered Talent > Sup Forumsnons

>Talent
Its called IQ you retards, its an requirement not guarantee kickback

Overwhelming talent>>>>>talent+hardwork

You mean my talent to climb trees like a goddamn monkey is actually IQ

>Sup Forumsnons
You don't even know me.

Mashiro's looks with Aoyama's accent

>tfw my IQ makes me an olympic level athlete

People with high IQ aren't simultaneously masterful pianists, artists, athletes, etc.

>talent = IQ

IQ does correlate with those traits, yes

Luck is the only factor.

You control nothing. All can be taken from you by sheer chance.

WHO'S THE RETARD NOW, HA HA

...

It depends on what you are trying to succees in.
If you want to be a poet, or writer, painter etc, then raw talent beats hard work as you those types of occupations require that extra creativity that you have to be born with.
Hard wok can get you to the end of your potential. But some are born with more potentiol than you can work yourself up to.

raw talent without hard work and hard work without talent can both be completely useless depending on the circumstances

Both. Talent or hard work will only get you so far, but having both is what really makes a successful person.

>implying mashiro didnt work much more and much harder than aoyama
its about fascination with a topic, something is cute autist certainly had

If only your IQ was high enough to let you understand how wrong you are about this.

Unless you're some kind of one in a million prodigy, then you're still going to have to compete with thousands of other talented people. Who comes out ahead largely boils down to which talented person works the hardest.

You'll have to work VERY hard to succeed, friend

...

Real

Both

It still fathom me to this date they our main couple here in the LN had sex in the end....im not joking, go look at the forum at animesuki, they dud the deed, and they were teenager.

What with all these LN doing the bee & honey at the end despite not being an echhi genre

If you reach a low baseline of talent, then hard work wins out.

Succes = raw Talent AND AND friends/family, influential/famous.

The thing is to really succeed in this world, you need to have extremely high talent and then work extremely hard.
They are multiplicative:
success ~ talent*hard_work

If you don't have BOTH, then you are a loser, and you will never amount to anything.

Both are important. But success is more guaranteed if you put in effort.

You also forgot how he started only seeing her as a walking onahole to vent out his frustrations and then they broke up.

luck

>he believes that he lives in a meritocracy
>he believes in social mobility
>he believes that hard work is the ultimate decider of success

The only things that matter are who you know, the circumstances of your birth and whether or not you have the talent/intelligence/genetics to be able to compete in the first place.

For most people life is realising that you never stood a chance at happiness or success.

>If working hard was all it took to succeed then the drones and wageslaves would rule the Earth.
But they don't work hard. They go home and do basicvally nothing. The secret to success is to not waste time on fruitless endevors. That's it.

Be like me, have no aims to succeed, just chill out all day and fap to waifus

>weak-willed piece of shit tells himself it's not his fault

The key to success is to be of a successful lineage. There are exceptional circumstances in which those who are born with talent and who are driven enough to succeed are able to rise beyond their station, but there's a reason why the poor stay poor and the rich get richer.

Your fate was practically decided from the moment you were born.

all y'all forget about the most important thing. Connections. You can work your ass of with your amazing talent but will probably not get very far without the help of other people.

I was born with a disability that basically means I stand no chance of competing whatsoever. No amount of "hard work" or bullshit middle-class rhetoric is going to change that.

The world is not a fair place and regardless of what you've convinced yourself is true, the only reason you're able to comfortably assert that hard work is the be all and end all of success is because you happened to be born under the right circumstances in the right environment to succeed.

Don't' see why that's a big deal. A couple nearing collage having sex isn't something to be surprised about.

I cannot fap more than 4 times per day and yet my friend who is more talented can fap even 20 times a day. How can i even imagine to be like him with pure hardwork

Mashiro worked harder than Aoyama though, before Sorata her whole life was dedicated to painting.

>The key to success is to be of a successful lineage
Only in some fields. Besides, you could argue that since what you mean is just other people giving stuff to you, that's not success at all, it's just hoarding by those who previously succeeded.

Of those two? Hard work. Having ONLY either means hard work ends up ahead, but you need both to become great.

I'm not necessarily referring to connections and social leverage. What I mean is that successful people produce more successful people. Nine times out of ten, those who go on to make their mark on the world come from parents who already attained some level of financial success. That's why the poor stay poor whilst the middle and upper classes prosper.

hard work supports raw talent

Which is a problem in this time and age. It's gotten much harder to "get rich". ALL the people I know who I would call "rich" never did anything for it. All of them had their gradparents/parents work hard after ww2.

Yeah and why do you think that is? they know what their kids need to learn.

Raw talent when its built on with hard work

I can't believe there are posters in here that still believe in the just-world fallacy, I guess this is what happens when Sup Forums gets invaded by teenagers thanks to shounenshit.

>Its harder to get rich
Objectively false according to statistics

i’m sorry to hear that user; however, generally speaking, people don’t consider exceptions when debating about the general. most people aren’t born with disabilities

>asking Sup Forums, a bunch of losers, what matters when succeeding
You don't know. Quit pretending you do.

>I can't believe there are posters in here that still believe in the just-world fallacy,
>I'll just pretend we were dealing in absolutes as opposed to a 'which is better' abstraction
You so cool.

But you're complaining on Sup Forums instead of trying to be independent. You don't have to be earning alot to be called successful nor do you need to follow the social norms.

If you can shitpost on Sup Forums, you can definitely learn to program or do stuff online like stock exchange or even mining bitcoin. Learn to not be a stuckup bitch and have a wider not narrow point of view.

It's far more likely though. I don't get put in jail for doing ethical (good) things and probably get recognized for not being an asshole. That's depending on your field work obiously but true in most cases. Without thought police that won't work but humanity is trying.

But none off those is the key to succeed unless you believe in the just-world.
You just want to believe that, if you do unethical things but get a lot of money you can buy anyone.
You have no proof that it happens in most cases.

You can write a comment so you can do anything requiring at least some coordination. You could write a sentence, so you can do anything requiring a thought process. Depending on you disability you may not become a olympic athlet, but you could at least try and practice till you hit the ceiling. Still better than shitposting on /a

If you want to be able to compete with someone who achieves results seemingly by raw talent alone, then you need to not just work at a consistent pace, but with a good method as well.
If your method is shit from the outset, all your time practicing will be for nothing. This is why you need someone who's better than you to judge your skills every so often.
That said, no one achieves big things through just raw talent alone. People who have talent need to understand how to use and apply it.

...

>you can definitely learn to program or do stuff online like stock exchange or even mining bitcoin.
No i can't. My disability means that I'm a retard with numbers and calculations.

No one wants to confess that people like me exist -- people who are doomed to failure no matter how they try. It flies in the face of all the reassuring things they tell themselves to continue living in what they perceive as a fair and just world. There are millions of people all over the planet who are born into abject poverty and never given a chance to realise their potential. There are people living in third-world shitholes who might have been doctors or lawyers under better circumstances. There are people who end up warped so much by their upbringing that they could never hope to function in polite society.

But I suppose it's all just a matter of hard work, isn't it?

Well you're right that if you don't get caught/snitched you can't get punished.
But with a few exceptions people get punished in the end. We may not know what's going on without us knowing, but there is no point in thinking about that, is there?

>But with a few exceptions people get punished in the end.
How do you know that?
Are you god or something? You're just a religious zealot.

As somebody learning to dance for 2 years now, this is the most reasonable thing I've red. I know people who got way better than me in that time, but at the cost of their spare time. Practicing every day will make you way better way faster but you have to be devoted to that for a long time. In the end you have to know how big of a role any skill/activity should play in your life. I don't want to spend more than 3-4 hours a week on that skill, but he does.

You live in a terrible society user. I wouldn't treat the world as if nothing is going on. I know that the world is unfair, just look at the entire continent of Africa and South America, and countries where corruption exists like Philipines, Indonesia, even China.

>We may not know what's going on without us knowing, but there is no point in thinking about that, is there?

This is the same kind of religious thinking that is the problem of the just-world.
>just believe in this invisible thing that we can't measure or watch interacting with the environment
And yet you still believe that most people that do "bad" things get punished.

Good looks.

>This is the same kind of religious thinking that is the problem of the just-world.
>>just believe in this invisible thing that we can't measure or watch interacting with the environment

Did you misquote because I've no idea how that relates to the picture.

So why should I play by this world's rules? There's no reason for me to be anything other than an opportunistic, self-absorbed, backstabbing bastard. I was never given a fair chance, so why should I seek out success in the same way that a normal person would?

I should lie, cheat and steal to get what I want and feel fully justified in doing so. It's just my way of balancing the playing field, after all.

This show is an abomination

>Passion
>Effort
>Talent

The Holy Trinity of Success and Personal Fulfillment

spoken like a true edgelord. Imo you're right to try though. BUT you have no right to complain if that comes back at you in the end. You have to do that till the day you die to not loose it all because of being an asshole.

The picture tells you that you must keep trying because nobody knows about this magical talent thing, if you want to be successful you need money and good networks.
Do you even understand the picture?

t.brainlet

All or nothing is better than nothing at all, desu. I've been looking out for myself first and foremost ever since I figured out that being "nice" and doing everything I'm supposed to do was only leading me to ruin as a second class citizen. It may be edgy, but for someone as hopeless as I am edgy is about the only thing that works.

As long as you dont murder or rape anybody it's honestly fine. Go be a politician and bamboozle the citizen's cash, go sniff your neighbour's pantsu. Go jerk off to gore and snuff. Whatever you do as long as you don't get caught its fine.

Although anyone can learn to draw, most won't be able to reach the same heights as someone with talent.

If you're born tone deaf, no amount of practice will make you a good singer.

The point of the paragraph is that regardless of whether you have talent or not, you're going to have to work hard, so why worry about talent when the only difference it's ever going to make is when you reach the peak of your abilities. The problem the paragraph answers is that the question of talent stops some people from trying in the first place. The fact of the matter is that if you understand the problem that you're trying to tackle at a fundamental level, and work hard at it, you will unavoidably become good enough at it to be considered successful (though not the best, that's where talent comes), unless you have a literal, clinical mental retardation.
People who think they don't have any talent and wont therefore even try to tackle the problem of self improvement simply lack a fundamental understanding of how the world works and how your own mind works. They think life and the world is this nebulous thing that you just pass by without needing to put effort into the things you do. They don't understand what trying even means because they have no work ethics. When was the last time you spent 6 hours after your 8 hour work day practicing a certain skill? Never? Well no fucking wonder you can't learn a thing.

Luck & healthy genetics desu.

Reminder that the author's newest light novel series is selling like hotcakes and the anime adaptation is inminent.

>whether you have talent or not, you're going to have to work hard
That is the just-world fallacy and the religious thinking, if you have a good family you don't even have to "work".
>if you understand the problem that you're trying to tackle at a fundamental level, and work hard at it, you will unavoidably become good enough at it
There you have it again "just work harder dude".
>When was the last time you spent 6 hours after your 8 hour work day practicing a certain skill?
That is the thing, I don't need to practice after 8 hours of work because I can do it all day unlike my poor friends that have to actually work to be able to eat.
The poor bastards really believe that I "work hard" but I don't, I don't even do 50% of what they do but my mind is much more focused because I don't have to "work hard".
You understand the world now? People that had luck don't even need to work hard to become good becuase they already have more free time to have a healthy mind. You probably don't understand because you're a poor guy that had to work to stay alive instead of learning.

>Sup Forums denying that talent exists
I literary only listening to lectures, made notes and revised for an hour for an exam and got my Master's no problemo
I didn't even break a sweat doing my STEM PhD

>thread

How on earth is it religious or just-world thinking? "hard work" doesn't have an inherent positive or negative implication and doesn't therefore fit just-world thinking. You can work hard in the wrong kind of way and end up with no positive results for the thing that you wanted to be good at (say for example that you want to increase muscle mass in one part of your body, but instead you accidentally work hard at doing reps for the wrong muscle group, sure you worked hard but you worked hard the wrong way so you didn't get what you wanted).
There is an uncertainty about hard work that will not guarantee a specific kind of result for your work (maybe you'll get this good or maybe you'll get that good, but at the end of the day you'll improve regardless, how much that is is not a certainty), but what is absolutely certain is that a lack of hard work will not grant you anything in the short term. Improving at a skill is simply a question of mileage, on top of plenty of other things, but first and foremost its a function of time. You can be a Sunday painter and work leisurely at your paintings all your life and perhaps you'll become a good painter by the time you're 50. But if you want to be good at your craft before you hit 30, you have to crunch all that mileage down into a shorter time span, which means WORK HARD. The implication of your thinking is that "because I can't attain it easily, there is no point in trying to do it at all", which is the thought process of a person who doesn't truly care about self-improvement and shouldn't therefore even participate in conversation. It's fine to not care about developing skills, socializing is plenty enough for most of the population, but don't start yelling at the sidelines about retarded shit that doesn't apply to yourself. Also you're mistaking success with ability. Being successful has nothing to do with how good you are at a thing (though ofc there is correlation), but that's also not the topic at hand.

No one is more talented than me at being a neet and masturbating to weird anime porn

Remember when nips went ballistic on this anime because one of the characters made a korean dish?

If I had to choose, I'd say hard work. Not having talent will in some cases get you nowhere, but not doing hard work will never get you anywhere.

Talent and good genes are wasted on the effortless.

>People that had luck don't even need to work hard to become good becuase they already have more free time to have a healthy mind. You probably don't understand because you're a poor guy that had to work to stay alive instead of learning.
Also I am writing from the point of view of a upper middle-class kid who had no ambitions and no real skills before they turned 19. Who then started pursuing art without any prior experience or family influence. Who in the comfort of their parents house had 24/7 free time for 3 years, of which he only spent a few hours a day working on his craft, improving steady but not fast, and who now lives on their own, works a full time job, and spends the rest of their time practicing their craft and improving at a much greater rate than before.

Of course, how could I forget Aoyama being raped by the Gangnam Style guy?

Talent only matters for people who want to be at the top of the world. Working hard for no gains is pointless. But 90% of people should be able to get by.

I don't have the authority to speak about other professions, but I can speak about my profession which is mathematics. If you can't grok the materials in undergraduate or graduate school, most likely you are the one at fault. It's not about working hard or being a genius. It's about working efficiently, and having the curiosity to learn and understand things.

Trying to understand, say, why the fundamental theorem of calculus is true would be a more beneficial use of time than any homework set, but most students are just not very curious and just want to solve homework problems. Without a strong calculus foundation, more advanced subjects like harmonic analysis and PDE become unlearnable, and then they blame the god of intelligence for being unfair even though they always do all the homework.

Statistical outliers exist, in either direction. But the point is that you can never know about your limits, even if you are born so retarded you can't do 1+1. My parents used to call me dumb at maths and compare me to other kids, but I never cared and just went my own path, simply because it interests me. Your limits are almost always higher than you expected, even if not world-class, and it's a guarantee that most people never put in the effort over a lifetime to reach those limits.

>The implication of your thinking is that "because I can't attain it easily, there is no point in trying to do it at all"
I don't think you understand anything I say, there is no NEED to work hard if you had good luck, and if you had good luck then every "work" you do is going to be "harder" because you don't have anything to worry about.
Telling people to "just work hard": >whether you have talent or not, you're going to have to work hard
Is stupid because some people doesn't even need to work hard to achieve something, you just do it instead of worrying about work or food.
>I am writing from the point of view of a upper middle-class kid who had no ambitions and no real skills
Great, now tell me about "hard work" when you're a starving kid in a war stricken country.
Looks like you only believe about "hard work" because you have never seen "hard work", as in guys that have time for nothing between works but to use cocaine to stay awake.
Get out of your bubble.

>I don't think you understand anything I say, there is no NEED to work hard if you had good luck
Then stop involving yourself with lifestyle conversations that doesn't concern your own life philosophy. If you're well off, happy with your life, and don't have the need to become good at a craft or skill then that's fine, but trying to act like you belong in the conversation in the first place. The topic of "talent vs hard work" is literally only relevant to those people who decide (and are able to) live their life around developing a skill. People who don't have the means to do so, and people who don't care to do so, cannot, need not and should not concern themselves with the problem.
>Great, now tell me about "hard work" when you're a starving kid in a war stricken country.
Starving kids in africa aren't concerned with getting good at painting or music or whatever craft now are they? Jesus christ you're literally comparing apples to oranges. This has nothing to do with the topic of "talent vs hard work".
(although funnily enough in some developing countries working hard and improving at a craft can be one of the only ways of getting out of their shitholes, like south american countries and football)
>Looks like you only believe about "hard work" because you have never seen "hard work", as in guys that have time for nothing between works but to use cocaine to stay awake.
I literally work every day with immigrants who either work two jobs or want to work overtime daily because it's what they need to do to support their family here and back at their home country. At 6AM my coworker comes to work straight from another job, then goes home at 2PM, drinks a couple of beers and goes to bed to start it all over again. But these people, like said before, do not apply to this conversation because skill development isn't even part of their life.
You're talking about hard work in the context of upkeeping a livelihood which is not even the topic. Stop,its embarrassing.

Having the passion for one particular subject necessary to bust your ass off is a talent in itself.

But this conversation only matters for people who are motivated to become skilled at something. If they don't care for it, they wouldn't need to worry about either talent or effort.