Is Nen the ultimate power system? Will it ever be topped?
Is Nen the ultimate power system? Will it ever be topped?
Create a manipulation ability that isn't "I stick X in Y and now i control Y"
It's a pretty good system and the part about increasing the power of your nen by imposing limits on yourself and having clear rules to follow balances it out well enough. Though the "nen that becomes stronger after death" part isn't exactly as well thought out as it could be.
It's perhaps dumber than Jojo's.
Morel, Shoot, Halkenburg, Mizaistom, Luzurus.
It destroyed itself. Everything is a specialization with focus on one or two of the other paths right now.
So good Togashi still feels the need to explain it, in-story, 20 years later
>it's another specialist
Best system is death note. You have a clear set of rules on how to use the item. That's it. There's no ambiguity on what you can or can't do with it.
Clear rules are shit, because it turns into a game of rock paper scissors then.
Best systems are ones where there are clear rules but there's ways of imaginatively poking holes in the rules, but never allowing the character to step, circumvent or break them
I think stands are pretty cool. They're free enough to do pretty much anything you want but each stand generally is loosely limited by a general theme. Nen would be better if Togashi stuck more to how it started rather than people being able to be more than one type or some people being able to be any type at will.
I also like the rune stuff in Witch Hat Atelier. Everyone is basically on equal footing and they're only limited by how well they can draw and how much knowledge they have about the different runes and keystones.
>Clear rules are shit, because it turns into a game of rock paper scissors then.
I mean, maybe if you have something real simplistic like an elemental type advantage system. The death note just makes it so a character has more options of what to do, like if they had a futuristic gadget. It therefore comes down to how the person uses it.
But examples on the loophole thing?
No, being omnipotent is.
>ultimate power system
>Even though specialist exist breaking any balance the system had
Togashi was close but not close enough
exhibit A:Kurapika gets 100% in every category as a specialist.How is this not broken?
specialists don't seem to live very long
>by the way, if you have a great talent like the 90% of the characters we actually see on scene this whole graph means shit
Having 100% accuracy in each nen type means little if he doesn't do anything to train his actual levels in each category and Emperor time exhausts him/shortens his life span.
This. He can effectively only use it for 6 days worth of time before he dies. Hardly any time to train and become top tier in any other category.
Part 2, though this doesn't actually go into the details like how the "floor" of the artificial sacred ground is determined or the summoning language.
This doesn't even seem like a power system. It's more like a video game battle system. It's too strict and mechanical going by these two images. Too many rules too.
So Kurapika blocking Uvo punch at 100% with just 1 broken arm and then completely healing it in a matter of seconds is pure bullshit.
Nen is only as good as its user. There's no point in arguing who got "broken" powers when the powers are just a form of self-expression that are limited by the users creativity, willpower and skill.
It's a summoning system, though it does work out sort of like a duel system if it's just two summoners. I like all of the rules because there's no bullshit ways to circumvent any of it so there's no asspull special powers.
There's a fine line between having enough rules to keep the fights free from asspulls and having too many rules that every fight seems by the numbers basically. I haven't read the series though so I can't really say anything about it but just from those two images it seems like there's way too many rules to be interesting. It also seems like there's too much setup and eventually it'll get dropped, at least on panel.
Naruto’s chakra affinity system is way better
On paper and initially without the eyehax, bloodline limit, and runaway affinity mixing anyway. It would make a pretty balanced system but quite difficult to write a story around.
>inb4 nen copy
>What is chinese elementals
>that are limited by the users creativity, willpower and skill.
They are limited by whatever the fuck Togashi wants at the moment
Why do people like stands again?
There's really nothing that's systematically interesting, complex or balanced about it. It's pretty much just: any power you can think of, then slap it on a punch-ghost middleman. Mind you many of the individual stands themselves are creative and fun and the psychic projection bit is a catchy gimmick, but as an overarching "power system" it's utterly useless.
Perhaps the execution of stands is what makes it good rather than the idea itself. But like I said, it's general enough to have a large variety of powers and that makes it interesting. Not every stand is a punch ghost. That's something people who have only watched the anime would think. And each stand itself has a (vague but still generally there) rule set. Though that doesn't prevent the occasional asspull.
Yeah, but basic Nen is that you got an aptitude. This is whatever part of Nen that fits "you" the best.
Afterwards, everyone will be making their own powers based on their aptitude. Everyone besides the specialists are equal here. Sure, some are better at it that others, but it's not Nen's fault that some characters are talentless fucks.
Finally, lots of characters chose to put a hard limit on their abilities. This is where the "limited by whatever the fuck Togashi wants at the moment" comes in. That's a decision by the character though, not Nen.
Elements were a terrible idea because of how hard the counters were
>Sasuke turns all Diedar's bombs into duds
>Wind Rasenshuriken only makes fire jutsu stronger instead of doing anything helpful
If it just went into soft counters using their individual properties, like wind cutting, you could have made soft counters with strategy and not have every battle be one sided. Its a good thing
it got dropped after 2 or 3 fights.
The elements were a great idea that Naruto didn't even end up using (besides like, half a fight?) because of some dumb fucking reason.
If Naruto fights had actually been about elemental countering and elemental neutral taijutsu and genjutsu, Naruto fights would have been actually interesting during the later arcs.
Instead we got all these bizarro powers that did jackshit.
That's the benefit of it being by a more experienced author. The rules actually add even more dynamic to the fights especially as the series goes on.
They pretty much eliminate power levels. No matter how strong a stand is, the user can just get stomped. It also keeps the main characters grounded both figuratively and literally, so that they can have relatable obstacles because they are still humans with special powers (much like how other shonens get these plot holes where the characters can move 10X the speed of sound and fly but still have entire chapters dedicated to running away from a threat). They have basic limitations such as range so that they can have their powers lent to unique and creative situations without being too overpowered.
I don't LOVE stands, but they are probably the best way I can think of to keep fights creative, but also not have some stupid emotional based flare up of power where someone through determination teleports behind you and shoots a nuclear blast capable of destroying a mountain
Fair point. I find that situation a bit unclear, as before the introduction of the time restriction of Emperor Time, I just imagined he practiced up those abilities. What I imagine could be going on there is that Kurapika trains up lesser forms of these abilities and then goes Emperor Time for a boost to make them an actual threat. The idea would be something like studying for a topic, say physics, in your normal state, but then having a super power that gives you an increase in IQ for the exam. If you were able to study with a higher IQ, you would do even better, but you'll do fantastically better than your peers this way. But that's speculation, Togashi left a hole there.
The chaotic assemblage of random powers is what makes Jojo entertaining. There's hardly a system, but it doesn't need one. Araki is talented at introducing characters and power sets in speedy fashion.
Why do people act like this happens more than it does? There are only 10 confirmed specialists in the entire fucking series and 4 of them are dead.
*correction 5 of them are dead
My fellow gentlemen of African descent.
Sanderson alone can make 10 different power systems better than all of Japan has ever done.
>have magic ghost thing
>use it to drive a car
This is pretty fair. Death Note gets credit because its rules are relatively rigid, yet Light exploits them in creative ways like ripping the deathnote apart, using the choice of death to control events and timing, tricking other people to write in the deathnote, and forcing a shinigami to write the name of his enemy. The justified scheme/asspull ratio is quite good.
Yeah, Sanderson is great in making these controlled powers. His novels basically reads like a shouhen manga.
>metal pushing AND weight control
Pitou is my wife and we love each other very much!
I don't really think Stands are a power system so to speak.
System seems to imply there is some well "system" to how everything works but at this point Stands are mostly just ghosts that have strange powers.
>System seems to imply there is some well "system" to how everything works
Stands still have a system even if Araki isn't good at working with it.
They're still a power common to lots of characters even if their actual effects are all over the place.
One where the user can possess the opponents body, on the condition they are taller and weigh more, for 24 hours. They can then posses someone in that body, basically making a Russian nesting doll of people. The time limit for the previous body frozen whenever the user adds another “layer”
Sure they do
>The physical strength of the stand is inversely proportional to its range, unless it's remote controlled
>Remote controlled stands must obey their rules
>Stand damage feed backs to the user
>Every stand has a special power with a specific ability
For the most part. There are exceptions though, like Killer Queen and Golden Requiem.
I'm pretty sure it's stated that both a Conjurator and a Emitter could learn a lv 10 Emitter ability but the Conjurator would only use it with the 20% of power, I think you are speedreading too much or blatantly ignoring the point that Emperor Time it is broken as balls, just as many other things, at the end it all depends on your "talent" and how the author feel that day, just like any other generic shounen.
Pretty much agree with all these points.. I like Jojo and stands, but the larger point I was making that the stand system is really only as good as Araki's ability to continue designing interesting stands, which so far he has delivered on as opposed to nen is actually a cohesive system that's more than the sum of it's parts.
I've always liked hamon more even if it was a more of a generic chi thing, it was bullshit how Dio survived against Joseph's purple hermit hamon attack, if it was part 2 Joseph Dio would've died instantly.
Emperor Time only gives him 100% accuracy (force) in the categories, he's still restricted by whatever "level" of mastery he's reached in each. Training all categories and being as effective as a master like Netero would take years and ET would kill him before he could.
Emperor Time gives a very unfair boost compared others, my only point is that he'll never be as good as someone who has the natural disposition all the time. He's extremely powerful but not undefeatable.
And sure, talent is a huge factor. If you don't like it, oh well I guess?
It would be cool if it weren't for the specialist category which is a defeats the whole purpose by letting people do whatever the fuck they want. Also there's people like Alluka who just have abilities that don't fall under Nen at all, again defeating the whole purpose.
you should just play pokemon
elements were stupid as fuck, if they were part of every battle the story would be stupid, why wouldn't they just send a bunch of the super effective ninjas to beat the bad guy's type
you should really play pokemon, or read it, they cover this concept really well, I think you will enjoy it
So far he have been undefeatable under "normal" circumstances i.e Uvo vs Kurapika, also the fuck is wrong with that page.
The Nen categories are generic as shit, but I really like the "make up your own power" part.
What about Geass? Is Geass a power system?
Sure. But even in Kurapika versus Uvo, he was only able to enhance himself enough to suffer a broken arm. Relative to Uvo at enhancement, Kurapika is about as strong as a child. Is the game really tipped to Kurapika's favor? Sure, I won't deny that. If that's enough for you to cast the series in flames then so be it. But the situation isn't nearly as bad as people try to make it seem.
Also apologies, that's the version I found on a site. Thanks for posting something less shit.
Since I missed last time around, gonna say I might be inclined to agree. Just thought there were some fair reasons for people to say they prefer stands despite the lack of an overarching system. I sympathize. I posited death note as best by the by.
It is, but the show showed like 2 different geasses so its not really worth talking about.
Would Gon at middle of CA arc beaten uvogin in 1v1?
I love Nen, but I find it really difficult to come up with a power within it myself. Nen is actually a pretty strict system, but Togashi doesn't actually go into much detail in how it's strict, which is good for him because it lets him fudge the math here and there in order to create cool abilities or scenes, but for a fan trying to use the system themselves, you can't just give yourself the same creative control the author has, which means it's difficult to create an ability that's interesting without threatening pre-established limitations of the system.
For the top three categories, their simplicity is endearing, but it also makes it difficult use them when creating an ability without having to either dip into other categories or be left with something boring. For the bottom three categories, it's difficult to create an ability that's useful in a broad range of situations without feeling like you're breaking some rules. I think Togashi knows that, and I think it's intentional, but he has the authority to do whatever he wants. The reason I say it's intentional is because I think Togashi specifically made it so the further towards the top you are, the more you're like Dragon Ball, and the further down, the more you're like JoJo. These are the two battle shounen that predate Togashi and inspired him the most, and one's extremely simple where people fight with their bodies and throw energy blasts, while the other relies on conjuring objects that are broken in extremely specific scenarios, but useless otherwise, which creates the villain-of-the-week formula.
Conversely, I could make a dozen Devil Fruits or Quirks right now and feel confident in their strength, originality and how fitting they'd be in their respective series. Doing that with a Hatsu is a monumental task.
I've played and watched Pokemon enough. Anyway, that's not really what I mean. The elemental jutsus in Naruto were both underutilized and misused.
Used correctly though, it could have created some great tension. For instance, an enemy with lower power level but could have been given an elemental advantage to make him more of an obstacle, or the one of the good guys could have had an elemental advantage to make him taking on a strong bad guy more credible.
A bigger skill element could also have been portrayed, showing for instance a ninja using genjutsu or something like that to defeat a bad matchup.
And if you don't want to play with the advantage disadvantage bits, just make them have elements that don't counter each other to make it a fair bout.
Of course, this was the least of Naruto's problem. It's biggest problem was really that the pool of jutsus and their abilities started to inflate really fast, making it next to impossible to actually read the fight in a comprehensible manner. That's why the pre-timeskip chapters were the best, because then everyone were shitty scrubs with 2-3 abilities at most.
Compare this to Nen or Stands, where the cards are mostly open on the table at the start, which makes a huge difference in making the fights comprehensible, which in turns creates an increased sense of tension to the battle.
Unironically yes. I can't think of a better system. And I read A LOT of mangas.
I too have read five of the most popular shonen manga. You might consider me an expert on manga.
No, and you're retarded for not being able to come to that conclusion yourself.
Mizaistom is a manipulator. The cage is only an aesthetic effect. If his power consisted in conjuring cages, then the trapped guys would still be able to move inside the cage. The fact that they are totally paralyzed from head to toes means Mizai is manipulating their bodies through a semi-coercitive manipulating ability. It's also pretty obvious he's a manipulator since most manipulators need a controller -a real object they always carry on them- to activate their ability : Morel has his pipe, Sharnalk and Illumi their needles, Shoot his floating hands, and Mizaistom has his cards.
No, I meant I read dozens and dozens of mangas, maybe hundreds, I don't know, including underground and less known ones. I'm a real autist when it comes to manga.
Okay. Recommend me other mangas with good ability systems.
I don't know why you think he's retarded. Chrollo is the strongest spider and Togashi gave him a 25 and he gave Gon a 23. "Middle of CA" would be when Hakoware wore off Gon and he went to use Jajanken on Morel (who Togashi also gave a 23) and it scared the ever-loving shit out of him. Uvogin was obviously a 23 or 24, so thinking Gon wouldn't stand a chance is kinda' silly.
I don't understand why people love Nen so much. If I remember right, it basically works in putting condition on yourself and the stricter the condition is, the better your power will be.
The graph doesn't mean shit, you can come up with any power you want and it'll fit one of the categories.
>taking that hole filled dataset with seriousness at all
>weighting every single one of the categories in that data set the same
I'm sure you do user.
>The graph doesn't mean shit, you can come up with any power you want and it'll fit one of the categories.
I'd call you a speed reader, but that would imply you've read this series at all, which I highly doubt you have given that comment.
Well, it hasn't been inaccurate, for what it is.
Generally someone is put into one of the categories when they learn nen (they don't choose it, it's just what they are) and trying to use powers that match other categories incurs a penalty. So everyone has a "type" that their main powers are in because that's the category they were in when they first learned nen. But yeah, like you said, the more limitations you put on your powers the stronger they'll be. Like Kurapika's chain jail power is unbreakable but can only be used on the 13 members of the Phantom Troupe and if he tries to use it on anyone else a spike will pierce his heart.
It's been years since I read the serie, how am I wrong? I can come up with any power I want, and if it doesn't fit into any of the 5 top categories, I'll just call it "specialization".
That's not true for the characters, though, just the author, which is why people like it.
You're born with your Nen category dumbass. You don't just get to pick whichever one you like and it'll be all hunky dory. Also, it's explicitly stated that you can't create a specialist ability if you're not a specialist. If you haven't read a series in years, don't waltz in a thread about it talking like you remember shit that you clearly don't.
I never said it was bad, just that is not the flawless masterpiece people likes to push, at the end of the day Togashi can just come up with whatever he wants, just like with ki, chi, etc. Just the current arc Togashi is killing off all the broken hatsus and even give Kurapika the lifespan bullshit to try to justify his opness, though now that Don Freecss is a thing and that Nanika can just revert any nen restriction it doesn't seems like a real danger, not that the lifespan bullshit have ever worked anyways.
And you didn't even think about already existing games such as MMOs and FGs?
It has actually. Multiple times. In fact, the source material it comes from has also been innacurate on other things.
Yeah but I'm not talking about how the characters themselves choose their powers, I'm talking about how the author designed his power system.
Being locked into a category from birth is ok but it's not really relevant to us, as readers. I don't have anything against it, I'm just saying that if the graph didn't exist and the characters were only told they could create 1 power, it'll essentially changes nothing
>If you haven't read a series in years, don't waltz in a thread about it talking like you remember shit that you clearly don't.
You're acting mighty cocky for a guy who get 3 chapters a year
Can you give me an example of it being inaccurate? It seems pretty reasonable to me.
What category a character is in is generally stated though when they're introduced, or at least before they use their power. Obviously it's more or less arbitrary who is in which category as the creator but so is any other power system.
Mahjong by itself is a deeper system.
>Yeah but I'm not talking about how the characters themselves choose their powers, I'm talking about how the author designed his power system
Except the way he goes about assigning powers isn't at all how you characterized it to be. There have only been 10 confirmed specialists in the series and half of them are dead. There are separate categories with unique characteristics, and the powers are created to fall in line with them as described. A mess competant author might abuse this set up, but that goes for any power system.
>You're acting mighty cocky for a guy who get 3 chapters a year
How? I'm not blaming you for not keeping up with the series. There are plenty of manga that I'm behind on too. The difference is that I don't go into current threads on those series and start shitting them up because I can't remember certain details.
It's boring, over-explained, and dumb.
I think World Trigger has so far displayed the "best" system insofar as it is balanced, understandable, and needs little explanation.
It's also pitiful in that this thread subject shouldn't be repeated over and over, despite the replies the threads get.
HxH fans just ignore the replies and keep pushing HxH down other people's throats, worse still, they spread misinformation with claims such as OP's.
Because it can go really hard between "i make myself strong, and hit that guy", and some perception test where the opponent has to gamble on what the rules truly are.
Its competing against things like
-Dragonball(mystic bullshit ability OR lethal kenpo) DBZ(raw power level)
-One Piece(brawling vs special powers and some sheenigans)
-Jojo(stands are stronger than their users, abstract stands can only fight on their quirk)
-A lot of shounenshit(special ability is never as good as just hitting/killing/stabbing people)
-Kekkashi(speed vs precision)
-GUNM Battle Angle Alita
Togashi didn't write the databook.
>Obviously it's more or less arbitrary who is in which category as the creator but so is any other power system.
not so with World Trigger where everyone has the same baseline and the typical "battle energy" or whatever you want to call it is less about power and more about reserves, thus the most skilled fighters beat out the more theoretically powerful fighters, and finally the most skilled teams and squads beat out those.
Then Nen system isn't even good.
It's just vague horseshit retards who haven't been exposed to good power systems ( these do not exist at all, actually ) think it's good. And while good power systems don't exist, some are still better than others and Nen remains vague bullshit.
Hunter x Hunter and its system definitely aren't without flaw. Specialists, vows, and nen after death definitely muddy the waters up a bit. To me that can be either good or bad depending on how Togashi handles it. An ambiguous element, to me, can serve to spice things up. Regardless, manga power systems in general fall behind the magic systems you get in western fantasy.