Let's settle this, who deserved the serum?
Erwin, he would have been a great antagonist.
>A guy who is determined to live, saved the SL million times, whose plans actually works and don't require a lot of human sacrifices
>Or a tired guy, leader who is sick of his role, whose plans can be described as simple brute force and require million sacrifices.
t.Not Eren
If you read a summarized plot, then
>Young boy with pure dreams
>Adult man with guilt and nightmares
>A young boy who brings happiness and hope to his friends
>An adult man who is full of guilt and tries to fulfill a meaning to his life through becoming a monster
>Then you have manlet whit a strong sense of humanity, who decided he doesn't want to follow a guilty men who wants to become a scapegoat. And prefers to believe in a young boy who brings something positive to others (not to him, but Eren and Mikasa).
Now, that's the plot. And sounds good. The way Isayama developed it was really weak, mostly when it comes to justify how Armin "deserved" to live.
>He deserved to live because he was young, he was full of hopes and had dreams.
>But then he also deserved to live because he was the mastermind who solved everything.
That's when it gets stupid.
Giving it to a 15 year old kid with only 3 months of military experience is a retarded move no matter what.
Armin will become the same as Erwin guilt wise.
>More than 2 years have passed
>Anons are still mad
Basically this.
Who wins? A guy with year of leadership and infield experience or a kid with dreams and a few months of experience.
After a certain amount of time you just stagnate, once they both passed the few months bar their in the same ball park.
What you needed to judge them on was their contributions in that arc itself, Armin devised a plan to defeat CT, and Erwin devised a plan to defeat Monkey man. Armins plan worked, and Erwins failed.
Not only that, Erwins plan was worse and it only worked because it had an emotional effect on Zeke, something he did not anticipate or plan for.
>Erwin's failed
It succeeded , but then was ruined due to the element of suprise.
Armin's plan was just the same shit they were trying before of "I'll distract him while someone else sneaks from behind" but with the bait willing to sacrifice himself.
Not to mention that both plans worked, it's just that manlet didn't hear the cart titan approaching while Eren did.
>Erwin was a retard who sacrificed tens of hundreds of lives pointlessly just so he can get to the basement and prove daddy right posthumously and all his strategies have involved throwing people at Titans until Titans start dropping.
>Armin has shown a strong desire to live and seek freedom beyond the basement. Not tired of life at all and wants to live more. His strategies do NOT involve throwing lives needlessly at Titans until they start dropping dead and in fact involves putting himself at risk to minimize casualties for others.
Yeah. Armin deserved the serum AND the Colossal. He's my boy.
>Erwin had the strongest human and a legion of brainwashed scoutlings at his disposal and his plan ended up with Zeke escaping and nearly everybody dying
>Armin only had his wits and Eren at his side and he managed to fell the god of destruction and assimilate his destructive powers into the scouting legion
Geez I wonder
>erwin has 0 judgement
None of this shit would've been an issue if, after having been aged up, Armong became a bit more sure of himself.
As much as I respect Isayama for making one of the greatest shounen from this decade, that was a terrible and weak decision. And Armin is easily the most pathetic character is SNK.
And this time you cant blame Eren (since its his friend, he cant help it) but Levi being turn into a complete idiot by Isayama for allowing that. Its like Kishimoto told Isayama what to do with his characters
>His strategies do NOT involve throwing lives needlessly at Titans
No, his strategies just involve everyone suddenly turning retarded just so he can point out the obvious, his biggest accomplishments are using the rock that exists exclusively to plug holes in order to plug a hole, being at the right place and right time three times in order to conveniently get all the clues of Annie being FT and telling the person that discovered that titans can't move at night that titans can't move at night
Keith Shadis is depicted as the failure commander who threw bodies into the meat grinder, who nominated Erwin precisely because his strategies managed to lower fatalities and work.
Erwin manages to create his own mountain of corpses as well, but his strategies and planning ultimately bears fruit and positive outcomes.
The ruthlessness score is very appropriate; he's like a chess player who's willing to part with nearly every pawn, bishop, rook, etc. in order to achieve his ends.
Which is why he was so weary when he realized that all of his sacrifices would not enable him to personally realize his own ambitions. And why he was so relieved when Levi lifted him from the burden of ruthless command and allowed him to finally die with his men.
Neither of them. Bert deserved to live
>Erwin manages to create his own mountain of corpses as well
Because there just wasn't any other way to fight titans until they got their own shifter.
Well, that's obvious. He also got titan AIDS and the friend who begged for him to be revived just left him to fulfill his revenge. While Erwin is resting without further responsibilities and happenings.
>who deserved
Bros before any one else.
Eren and Mikasa did nothing wrong, I would save my friend too (if I had any friend).
I was mainly focusing on the events of the story; Erwin muses on the huge number of SC fatalities that have occurred after acquiring Eren, because they enabled them to play a bigger game.
Just remember how many valuable SC members were killed in Eren's first deployment; originally Erwin staged the entire operation just to confirm whether or not there were possible human enemies or traitors within the ranks and the walls.
I agree with you: It's stated in story that Erwin's SC has had the lowest mortality rate in history due to his leadership. But once Eren began the plot, Erwin's ruthlessness is directly responsible for the deaths of literally almost all of his men.
Not when you are just giving your friend a fucking disease that is going to kill him slowly while he gets the memories of a previous friend and lately enemy mixing with his own memories.
>Erwin's ruthlessness is directly responsible for the deaths of literally almost all of his men.
No, having to fight shifters with powers that they knew nothing about caused that.
>ruthlessness
that's just being edgy, he planned and calculated, made tactics and send his men to fight in order of getting shit done, not just to kill people for the lulz. How is ruthlessness when soldiers are of value but when measured with the goals, they need to fulfill their roles.
>Who deserved to die as a hero and who deserved to live other 13 years as a monster?
Pls, answer the question.
If that was the case he wouldn't have been so burdened by the guilt of their deaths. Other commanders and leaders in story and in real life oftentimes prioritize the survival of their men over victory and objectives. Pixis refused to cooperate with Erwin in his coup for this very reason.
The enemy does not care about what happens to your underlings. If you decide you do not care either and decide to be ruthless, then that's your responsibility.
Why wouldn't he? That's the way he is, but from an objective point of view, he had no other choice, they were fighting literal superhumans.
>If that was the case he wouldn't have been so burdened by the guilt of their deaths.
Are you a woman? Dying is risk in that field, so anybody with the minimum of mental health would feel remorse even if the plan was successful.
>Pixis refused
And also Zacklay, because they weren't sure if the cup was going to be successful, and they were at risk of losing their jobs. This comes with a mixed sense of opportunity and responsibility. If they fired me, another crazy guy is going to be put on charge, and also I am losing my job.
I think the subjectivity and morality of the series is one of the best parts about SnK; we can have people disgusted by the amount of carnage or appreciative of it like Floche.
Not trying to necessarily argue against you, because instory a lot of characters would agree and say that what Erwin did was necessary, and that it was the only way the protagonists managed to advance so far despite the odds. However, I believe that it's overtly simplistic to cast the blame solely on the circumstances or the enemy.
Erwin's more interesting when you weigh him down with the fault of being a ruthless bastard. He's definitely not one dimensional, and he's portrayed as sympathetic. The author modeled him after Adrian Veidt from Watchmen and you can certainly see the influence and how he was written.
I agree with everything stated here, especially
>And Armin is easily the most pathetic character is SNK.
Errwin.
New Hitchs
Erwin
Why do japs love those stat wheels. Makes as much sense as always stating the blood type because they constantly do blood transfusions in animes.
Last one
;_;
At least he figured it out while dying, isn't it? He is Eren level of denseness.
It's sad.
Armin was an investment in the future, rather than continuing to cling to the old veteran talent the Scouts had relied on for years. Old guard vs. new guard. Armin clearly had incredible potential whereas Erwin had experience, but that experience according to Levi had its drawbacks for Erwin as well. Levi had even felt the same way before, remember how weirded out he got by this scene? Erwin was a genius but the military had already pushed him really far. Not that that'll satisfy you pissed off angry fujos and faggy fudans but that was the basic idea.
>Armin was an investment in the future
Anyone could have done his job. Sit in a boat and shift. There was literally no reason to choose him over Erwin other than Isayama's fascination with his childhood friend.
Because, you retarded fag, can't understand the choice was not taken based on a black a white view, there were many reasons. As for deserved, is an ambiguous word when you see how fucked up is Armin now.
Eren didn't know that.
Now he knows and that is why he is trying to get the power of the Hammer Titan for himself.
The younger and the one who wanted to live.
Classic denial of everything Armin ever came up with throughout the series. Try to remember that Levi knew Armin had a talent for strategy and figuring things out that was famous among his close comrades.
You call me retarded and then dismissively repeat what I said, which is that Levi based his decision on several factors between what he knew of both people. You motherfuckers are just too mad to see this any way besides demonizing it and taking out your bitterness on Armin.
THREE CUPS AN UN-KNOWABLE PLANS.
PLANS ONLY ARMIN CAN CONCEIVE.
NEK YOUR KEK
>Armin is fucked up
So just for acknowledging the poor guy is fucked because his friend was afraid of being left alone and threw a tantrum, I am now an Arminhater?
>Oh it's you, again
>I am now an Arminhater?
Yes, and a fujo
No it wasn’t, distracting CT was impossible because of his Aoe skill. Armin found a way around that leaving him open.
A fail is a fail and Erwin’s plan failed to capture or kill the beast titan, he should have accounted for the 3rd shifter.
Of course Erwin’s fight was way harder but still.
Reread the entire series again and try not to roll your eyes so much when Armin does anything that you miss whole segments of the plot.
I think it's a bit early to cast Armin as broken at this point, at least moreso than anyone would be given the crazy situation on that island. Or any more than Erwin already was. With that in mind I don't see what his being "fucked" has to do with whether or not is was a good idea to serum him.
>Armin has more teamwork
Erwin btfo?
This still makes me so mad. If you literally say anything other than Erwin, I assume you're trolling, memeing, underage or just braindead.
ERWIN
DESERVED
THE
FUCKING
SERUM
*koff*
>This still makes me so mad.
Clearly.
He already went to the ocean, the illusion of a dream is already lost, and the only thing is fighting and revenge. See Armin face when he went near the navy. THat's not a guy who fulfilled his dream but one who got that one accomplished and dismissed and only have a lunatic friend genociding.
Erwin was not wrong in this scene.
He got confirmation for his Father's theory being right so he was esthatic.
If it wasn't for Piekshit Erwin would be alive too.
>He already went to the ocean, the illusion of a dream is already lost, and the only thing is fighting and revenge.
That's deep, but I'll buy him as broken when I see more than two panels of him in the present. Maybe a line or two first? 'cause otherwise it seems more like what you want to be the case rather than it being explicitly stated.
Yes and given everything else that had recently happened that was a weird thing to be super happy about. Try to think of it from Levi's point of view, and combine it with how Erwin admitted that he was tempted to quit the field and make a mad dash for Grisha's house but the angry ghosts of every person he'd sacrificed for victory held him back. The guy had a massive weight on him, and his head was in a weird place at times.
Yeah, I am SEETHING. I freely confess. I actually dropped SnK for months after this. Its like people don't understand the meaning of a symbol, command experience, management, respect of his peers, relationships with people in other areas and a hell of a lot of experience matter. It's even more brutal since SnK acts like none of that matters.
As if some soldiers wouldn't be demoralized. As if Humanity itself wouldn't be demoralized when the known, respected and most successful leader of the Survey Corps dies. As though you want a new person commanding humanity's most important apparatus at a critical point. As though Hange is equivalent to Erwin.
I'm not even a fujo or particularly like Erwin's character, but in story it just doesn't make sense. It would be better if Levi just wasn't in the scene and Eren and Mikasa did what they did. Levi is a fucking manlet, not a braindead clown.
ERWIN SHOULD HAVE
GOTTEN
THE FUCKING
SERUM
>nervous jihadi Armin
>broken
The point wasn't who deserved it more, the point was that Levi wanted his friend to die with as much dignity as is possible in a world of giant zombie shit. He didn't want his friend to be brought back from a somewhat dignified death (dying while rallying his troops to victory), only to probably be fucking eaten down the road. This was him basically telling Armin "fuck you, you can deal with living in this rat hole. My friend deserves to just rest in peace and not deal with this anime bullshit.
I actually sympathize with you, because there have been plenty of cases where I was just as mad if not moreso at the direction a story takes. I get really invested, but most of the time when I'm let down THAT hard, enough to yell about it to other people, I drop the series and find something that makes me happy instead of mad.
I don't know if that's what you did, but I get it. It's just in this case, I never expected Erwin to get picked. From a purely narrative standpoint it seemed like Armin would continue as a character, whereas Erwin had his big finale after countless death flags. I was more surprised when Eren survived Trost.
That said, I have an easier time seeing this from both angles, since one of them doesn't blind me with rage. So I can pick this apart and understand why Armin might have been chosen. Which there were good enough reasons for, just none that you'd wanna hear.
This.
Erwin no doubt. Imagine him being involved with the shit that is going on right now. It would be glorious. Armin would have been much more beloved if he had died. He lived long enough to become a shit.
Fuck Armin, fuck all that "oh Erwin wouldn't have wanted to live anyways guys" and especially fuck Jean.
>Bertholdt died 5 years ago
I feel old
>armin's plan to sacrifice himself led to the defeat of colossal titan
>erwin's plan to sacrifice himself led to him and his friends getting btfo all while relying exclusively on levi for victory (who also failed)
Regardless of which side you were on, you should have clearly predicted Armin to get the serum 100%. It was completely expected and obvious.
Agreed. All this time Isayama was working towards making Armin worthy but it resulted in many slowly starting to find him unsympathetic. I reread the whole thing recently and Armin was sorta alright right until about Levi's Choice took place.
You're correct. I stepped away so I could be happy. To be honest, I never really _expected_ Erwin to get the serum. From a narrative point of view, it would be too brave and subversive a decision. Robbing the team of Erwin also puts them into a bigger crisis state and offsets the gains they made by getting the CT. From a narrative perspective, it's the obvious choice.
What made me incredibly angry was how Isayama failed to sell this to me in story. I just can't imagine a world where Levi would find enough reasons to let this happen. He's not even aware of many of the positives relating to Armin; he also has no narrative reasoning since he's in-universe. The way Isayama as a Mangaka presented the situation to me, it makes 0 sense for it not to be Erwin.
This is what left me seething, because the veil was lifted and I was forced to consider extra-textual reasoning to back up a choice a mangaka made while also facing the damage it does to my belief in his ability to tell a good story. This is compounded by me being former military and having particular views about how much the lost of the highest ranking field leader in the most critical division of the human species would cause a breakdown. I just can't wrap my head around any experienced officer deciding to make that choice.
When you're under high stress - particularly when you're at war, your commanding officer is ridiculously important. Particularly in a low-information, tough-decision sacrificial framework. These characters live in a high stress, low-information world. The value of experience is inversely proportional to information flow / stress. It's not like Armin can Google all of Erwin's previous command decisions / all the knowledge he's accumulated. Or gain the composure to actually execute those decisions.
Left me SEETHING because of those reasons.
I just find it weird how Eren just left Erwin to die without a second thought. No remorse or conflict whatsoever
Armin was always fucked up. Guy is a creep.
This is too biased, while he wanted to give Erwin some rest he also knew an Edgy leader would lead... well Eren, as always, ruined it for everybody when he decided to play the dark guy who kills civilians and children... so...
I think Armin
god i hate his fucking face
the fuck you just say?
>I am not running
>I am staying!
>I am brave!
That's why I liked when he decided to give is life for the others fighting CT, he even just accepted that he wasn't going to see the ocean... And then he suddenly revived with powers and AIDS...
That's a good rationale to make the event something positive for Erwin and negative for Armin. I wish more people in these threads thought that way, there'd be less vitriol.
Fucking Jean.
Let's wait for the new the chapter and see what's going on with Armin's mind.
Probably thinking about coconut bras.
The beautiful face of bullying.
Armin did. Erwin truly needed to sleep. Guy was broken.
Look at that fujoshit.
Neither. The bottle should have broke and they should have been forced to keep Bert a prisoner.
Cuckasa loses last additional bit of hope she didn't even know she still had.
In that case it would make more sense for Eren to eat Bert, or to just kill him.
Verbal Rapist Armin is the best.
Neither. Bert should have done a suicide nuke and killed everyone.
I want to die.
Anyone that says Armin should genuinely kill themselves.
Armin in chibi form was so fucking disgusting with his constant sneezing that I came to despise the real one.
Good idea. Maybe Zackley working with Hange could have whipped up a machine to weaponize his profuse sweating. Shit fueled, of course. Imagine it: A hydraulic shit fed Bert cannon. The applications? Limitless.
Can you make serum from sweat?
If anything she should be happy that Eren is dense rather than outright not interested.