When did you first realize Toriyama is a total hack?

When did you first realize Toriyama is a total hack?
>Future Adult Gohan only achieves Super Saiyan as an adult, even after witnessing the death of his entire family and most of the world
>Current timeline Teen Gohan achieves Super Saiyan 2 after witnessing a robot that he's known for a couple minutes get his head crushed
How can anyone defend this shit?

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>Asshurt Gohan faggot still mad that the Autistic character isnt the center of attention anymore.

Kek.

>Teen Gohan
Discarded

it doesn't matter how emotional they are if their base power is too low to achieve the state, nobody was there to train him since they were all dead

>Discarding canon

>canon
Gohan is 9 yo for the cell games, 16 during Buu.

>gohan was at least 13 during cell games is canon
You don't have the credibility to discuss this topic if you don't even know how old Gohan was

You fucking autistic dumbass.

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>Hercule High
Discarded

Can we not?

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Not have this thread?
Sure, OP already fucked it up

>Gohan died during Piccolo day

but that's Gohan day

Ultra Divine Water

He was 11 because 2 years pass in between Namek being destroyed and Freeza arriving on Earth.

He explained it indirectly via S cells. Future Gohan had less S cells than Gohan Prime, because his body got less peacetime rest and was in more constant full stress mode. It's the same reason why no Saiyan had gone Super Saiyan for thousands of years, they never took breaks from fighting and threw their kids into battle as soon as they could walk, so all had pathetically low s-cells counts on top of being pretty weak outside great ape form

1 year passed.

>what is the hyperbolic time chamber
You don't have the credibility to discuss this topic if you don't even know that.

>hyperbolic time chamber
>between Namek being destroyed and Frieza arriving on Earth

Lets kill a main character! Brings them back in 5 chapters.
Lets kill a main character! Brings them back in 5 chapters.
Lets kill a main character! Brings them back in 5 chapters.
Lets kill a main character! Brings them back in 5 chapters.

Seriously fucking stupid shit. If death has no meaning there is no fucking point to anything relating to personal safety. The only thing that even comes close to that problem is the issue of the super blatant powerlevel bullshittery the series invented. Oh this is a stronger mode because now hes blonde! Oh but this is another improved mode cause his blonde hair is LONGER! OHHHHH BUT NOW THE HAIR IS BLUE LOOOOOK OUT!

DBZ is utter garbage.

>implying not every shounen doesn't keep everyone alive
>implying most shounen don't overuse transformations and have powercreep
Take your autistic hatred elsewhere.

>implying most shounen isn't shit

>Defending dragonball z.
It's a shit series, fuck off.

Everyone doing something doesnt make it smart or good. The vast majority of shounen follows these garbage tropes and thats exactly what makes them shit. You can call it autistic as much as you want but the fact is that shounen is literally made for the lowest common denominator and brings nothing to the table except flashing lights and grunting at eachother.

The closest analogy it has to western TV is pro wrestling.

Gohan didn't train in the hackerbolic time chamber in the future timeline

Gohan got proper Super Saiya-jin training in the main timeline, so he was more powerful than Future Gohan already.
16's head getting crushed isn't exactly what caused the transformation, rather it was him letting go and letting his raw emotions take over. If Future Gohan did this, he'd like get Trunks autismo rage powers, but he doesn't do that because he's mainly holding off 17 and 18 from killing more people

>he fell for the viz meme

>Lets kill a main character! Brings them back in 5 chapters.
The whole point of 2 arcs was to bring people back to life, and the first time they did that, the main villain killed the dragon that grants wishes, and both times it was pretty hopeless.
>If death has no meaning there is no fucking point to anything relating to personal safety.
The characters know that. That's why Goku sacrificed himself to take out Raditz at the start of Z.
>The only thing that even comes close to that problem is the issue of the super blatant powerlevel bullshittery the series invented
Blame it on Freeza when he starts counting his Ki in percentiles and the whole fanfiction meta game of guessing who's got the bigger number.
>Oh but this is another improved mode cause his blonde hair is LONGER!
Actually, it was originally the fact that the muscles were bigger, but that made the form worse off as it made them too slow, and Gohan's Ascended Super Saiya-jin form was the goal for an entire arc and was foreshadowed throughout said arc, intentionally or not.
>OHHHHH BUT NOW THE HAIR IS BLUE LOOOOOK OUT!
Not DB or Z. That's Super's issue.
>DBZ is utter garbage.
I mean, the Freeza arc filler and the Buu arc is. Other than that, it's good. Sure, DB is objectively better, but who cares, you've never watched the series outside of shitty /dbg/ memes.

>His entire family
Are you retarded? Future Gohan died before Chichi died, the only one who died was Goku and that was unrelated.

why people get so ass blasted over a gag manga is beyond me

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>Autism.

Because Future Gohan was only able to achieve SS1 from the death of his family and world since they all died before he was able to go SS1

It was supposed to be Goku(or Piccolo)and not 16 who died.

They're assblasted cause the manga started to turn gags on to the audience without the audience realizing it.

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>>OHHHHH BUT NOW THE HAIR IS BLUE LOOOOOK OUT!
>Not DB or Z. That's Super's issue.
Revival of F was a Z movie

Which you'd think Goku would have used King Kai to tell them about.
Almost like Toriyama pulled it out of his ass.

It was, but it's now those storylines are branded under Super, with the Super version being the canon one

because living in a third world country where people treat a gag manga as the highest expression of art drives you insane over a couple of decades

>Future Adult Gohan didn't get the guidance that he did had he trained with Goku
>Generally laid low when he wasn't directly attacking 17 and 18 because of a literal life-and-death situation
>Doesn't attain SS2

>New Present Gohan spends time training with Goku for an entire fucking year to attain SS and gain mastery over the form
>Trains rigorously with Goku
>Attains SS2

Gee, I wonder why the cooler version of Gohan couldn't get SS2 while the lamer version of Gohan could

It was kino anyway

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Why do amerifats never mention everyone behaving like complete retards during the android arc and letting Cell reach perfect form?

Vegeta did nothing wrong
0-2karot

>the Buu arc is
Buu is easily superior to most of the Cell stuff from #17's absorption onward, Toriyama's inconsistent art aside.

I started disliking more and more about the series when the Namek stuff started, mainly that a lot of it was stalling until Goku came to do most of the work. The Cell and Buu sagas are where it got really bad though, those parts more than any others made it apparent that Toriyama had no idea what the fuck he was doing and just made shit up at random. SSJ3 is also the worst idea for a powerup ever.

Toriyama should've stuck to doing simpler gag manga. When he tries to tell ongoing high intensity plots he ends up tripping over himself multiple times. But people eat this shit up anyway so I guess he's doing something right at the end of the day, even though I don't get it.

Trunks wanted to destroy Cell and was the only one okay with Goku cheating in his fight with Cell via eating senzu beans and everybody else jumping on Cell

Be glad that recent non-WSJ shounen had the balls to kill many characters (important or not) whatever they need to. And not all shounen manga are about what you're saying.

What's wrong with the Saiyan and Namek arcs?

best anime of all time you lefty loony tune cuck

When he robbed Gohan of his place as the new MC.

That makes no fucking sense. It's the one thing he'd have spent years and years doing as soon as he managed to go SSJ. Kami being dead doesn't magically make his palace disappear.

In the name of the Freezer, and of the Son, and of the Holy Cyborg, amen!

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There really is no excuse for Future Gohan being so weak. Even if he never learned how to properly fight and train.

How come the Future versions are always better than the mainline versions?

Because in the future, there are no Dragonballs. There is consequence and danger

Future GAYhan is proof that GAYhan, at his core, is a lazy piece of shit who can't be bothered to go above and beyond unless his monkey dad and his slug dad are watching him 24/7. It doesn't matter if the world is burning down around him, the most GAYhan can be bothered to do is turn Super Saiyan and plateau there. Truly a disappointment.

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Saiyan arc is actually perfect as all the characters are given a chance to shine, even when goku comes to save the day he needs others to back him up.

Namek was similar on a smaller scale with retarded power creep and the impression that the jobbers were not going to get anything done, there were times in the saiyan saga where you could believe Nappa might get fucked up. Choitzu, tribeam, Gohan gets pissed, Kienzan, new piccolo move etc.there was no hope vs Ginyu force or freiza.

For dragon ball you really need to trim the fat and make a better headcanon for yourself.

Zenkai alone should have made him better. He took it upon himself to periodically get BTFO by androids. I can still believe him losing due to having one arm, getting tired and the androids having good teamwork and using full power but the way he was handled was just silly.

future androids are weaker than current timeline ones and fresh super saiyan Jobeta only lost to 18 because he got tired.

remove dyspo and add roshi

Based Toriyama warning against the dangers of single motherhood.

Based. The two balding jobber Saiyans are warming the benches while U7's REAL heroes are still swinging.

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roshi get ipad

>the more gentle the spirit, the greater the amount of S-Cells

Toriyama is actually a stupid faggot. Reminded me to never listen to a nippon geneticist.

>It's the one thing he'd have spent years and years
you can only spend two days i.e. two years max in the hyperbolic time chamber. don't talk shit you don't have any clue about, retard

Goku: “Master, Sir… I heard Beerus talking about S Cells. I’ve been wondering: What are S Cells?”

Whis: “S Cells are a microscopic life form that resides within all organisms.”

Goku: “They live inside me?”

Whis: “Inside your cells, yes. And we are symbionts with them.”

Goku: “Symbionts?”

Whis: “Life forms living together for mutual advantage. Without S Cells, life could not exist and we would have no knowledge of the Ki. They continually speak to us, telling us the will of the Ki. When you learn to quiet your mind, you’ll hear them speaking to you.”

Future Gohan is way weaker than main time line Gohan. You have to remember that Gohan trained with Goku and Piccolo for 3 years to prepare for the Androids. It's not only possible but likely that Future Gohan spent those years studying and was weaker when the androids arrived than he was when he fought Freeza.

>Literally doesn't make any mathematical sense fir him to be 9 when he fought Cell

Toriyama is a forgetful faggot

it ties into how saiyans err towards nagging wives. they need someone to drag them away from constant battle
>fight
>almost die
>get a zenkai
>get forced to stay home for a while and take it easy
>get more S cells
>repeat

It's a profoundly retarded concept. "a pure heart" has an influence on the amount of cells you produce lmao worse than mitoclorians. Even the idea being stressed from combat inhibits it because saiyans seem to get more stressed when they aren't allowed to fight or otherwise be free to go about their devices.

Trunks was a pragmatic motherfucker who knew not to mess around because of his life in the future timeline, everyone in the past was a weird honorfag

i'm talking about the physical stress of never letting your body properly rest

reminder a sizable amount of saiyans were not even considered low class warriors. Why didn't betas like vegetas brother go super saiyan like goten and kid trunks?

Does't matter if it explained everything perfectly because it's a retarded concept.

What? No most Saiyans were low class warriors. At least by the standard of the rest of the Freeza force. Nappa was a super elite and was barely above most scrubs

youtube.com/watch?v=o1hhKKhIOqE
The MEMES!

Namek was great
You're right; I expected them all to job against Freeza, that made the fact that they were giving him trouble much more awesome

I don't know about "most" but a sizable portion of sayians were not warriors at all. Gene wasn't for example, Saiyans also has a planet to run, they had butchers and tavern owners and shit.
I'm pretty sure there was some interview where the statistics of saiyans were given. Something like "super elite" was only the royal family. 1% or so was an elite like nappa (later retconned to mid-cass) and 60% was low class with the remaining not being warriors.

"low-class warrior" is still a warrior. Which is partly why Vegeta refers to Goku as a "full-blooded saiyan warrior" often instead of just saiyan, the warrior part isn't redundant.

>why didn't full blood saiyans that had been soldiers since children and mostly got by using great ape in a pinch rather than training have as easy a time going super saiyan as mutant hybrid children that grew up in peacetimes training at a reasonable pace

>so casual he thinks every saiyan was a fighter

Wasn't Gene something of an oddity? What we know of Saiyan's is that they were a war like race that love violence. I guess you must be right though since no society can form if everyone is a warrior

>S-Cells
Why the fuck do Midichlorians exist in Dragonball.

This aint the prequels.

Gene and Tarble are specific examples. If anything it lays a basis for natural selection of Beta saiyans in universe 6 being plausible. You can't have pride without shame. Saiyans who were not warriors were considered shameful in universe 7.

You know, I've always wondered. So like, Gohan is supposed to have had the highest potential of all saiyans but wasted it right? What's the story behind Goten?

You are a retard.

All of your criticisms are basically valid but DBZ doesn't pull out the bullshit transformations and new forms until Majin Buu, very arc has good moments that make them basically worthwhile and worth existing and even the Majin Buu saga starts really well it's just the veeeery end of the series that is a pile of shit. It's a better criticism of everything that's come since than it is of DBZ itself

Do the math you cunt

>main character dies
>is brough back lol
>new big bad to defeat, after Frieza it felt even more like a joke
>Vegeta lets Cell absorb the android, Vegeta in general
>time chamber lol, basically most asspull training
>Just keep making up transformations, new hair color

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Goten should have as much potential as Gohan considering he turned Super Saiyan on his own but Goten never got thrust into life threatening situations the way Gohan did, plus he didn't train with Goku or Piccolo

faster growth but less potential, and he lacks gohan's extreme fits of rage

4 start of Z
5 Namek
6 Trunks
9 Androids
9 1/2 Cell Games.

There you go dumbass. Learn your shit.

Wouldn't he be 10 because of a full year passing in the chamber?

>9 at Androids
>9 1/2 at Cell games despite being in the time chamber for almost a year

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He left the chamber early with Goku. The year never completed.

He's 9/10 in real world time 10/11 physically due to time chamber shenanigans. Everything in DB happens X amount of years later but shit like it taking two months to get to Namek is ignored

>Dad is strongest of his race
>Trained by his other dad who is also the strongest of his race and was also his planet's devil
>Gets a power up from a green guy capable of making magic wish marbles
>Attains the legendary transformation of his people before he hits puberty
>Attains an even more legendary transformation after the Terminator gives a speech
>Gets a power up from literal God to unleash his potential
>Still nothing but a jobbing nerd
>Bardock died for this

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>entire planet of super warriors blown up by a purple gay guy

Berrus is gay?

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it retroactively explains some plot holes, and really isn't as bad as zenkai boosts, but doesn't explain
why Caulifia and Cabba has high S-Cells when they're a gang leader and space cop, guys who'd deal with stress
why F. Trunks is so strong despite dealing with stress his whole life
and why Gine isn't the strongest saiyan

give Krillin ultra instinct

It's honestly crazy how the last arc doesn't feature a Saiyan circlejerk final 3, but based CHADza and CHADroid 17 saving the day while the Saiyan cucks watch from the sidelines after getting eliminated like retards

enjoy these threads while they last. i will finish what smugpup left off