Madoka Magica

This bitch has been in my backlog for years now and I finally got around to watching it.
So I'm guessing Madoka is supposed to be a metaphor for Jesus Christ?
So far it's the only thing that I can put together, is there anybody else that perceived this show differently or was it supposed to be very apparent that Madoka was a metaphor for Jesus?

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>nasu + shaft
>fate #120000 flop encore

>urobuchi + shaft
>madoka AOTY

Watch Rebellion.

That's what Shaft and Aniplex get for trying to force a single-cour show into being a franchise. Butcher had to be fed an ending for Rebellion, then when he saw he was losing control of his story, he said "Screw this, I'm outta here."

oh shit I didn't realize there were movies
should I watch those or do they ruin the anime?

>Butcher had to be fed an ending for Rebellion
He was suggested to write a non-happy ending, and it was what he came up with. He seems pretty satisfied with what he wrote though, if we consider the interview which he said he had written all there is to the story and this is the true ending.
I think the major reason no new Madoka could be made is it would take a lot of effort to get Magika quartet together again and Shaft's schedule is already stacked. Also the expectation would be insane so they probably just don't want to continue it.

Watch and form your own opinion.
It's a very divisive movie for sure, depend on your take on Homura character you would either hate it or love it.
I personally think it elevates the franchise, but I'm sure many here would disagree with me.

would it be possible to go a little further into details without being spoilery? does it have major retcons and what have you?

Movies 1 and 2 are pretty much the same as the series, except it has some improved visuals and some new music. Some scenes were removed though.

Movie 3 is a continuation of the story.

>this is the true ending
Did he really say this? The ending was a cliffhanger. It was clear to me that it was made with continuations in mind.

Homura is the MC. Rebellion also leaves a lot more things to viewers' interpretation than the main series.

It's only 2 hours, surely it wouldn't take much time.

>"Personally, I feel like I wrote all there is to Madoka in the TV series, and now I’ve written all there is to Homura in this movie. I feel like I’ve had both of them graduate."
From the rebellion pamphlet

I'm still just confused by rebellion. No explanation helps.

What is exactly confusing though? I mean people may interpret things differently but I don't see anything confusing about it.

I thought the motive of the characters are pretty clear.

op here, if your lurking later ill write a very lengthy post on my thoughts about it and the series as a whole and we can have a nice civil discussion kay?

So he's just saying he can't think of any new place to take their characters

AI YO is the key

Why does everyone assume that everything's gotta be a metaphor for something deep? Sometimes a show is just a show.

oh come on you're telling me that when madoka was suspended by wires with her arms out, legs straight down, and head hanging down that wasn't supposed to be a metaphor for the crucifixion of Jesus?

2deep

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I thought that one was too in the nose.

I think the best use of metaphor in the series was with Kyoko/Sayaka character arc though.

They are the key players. With their character arc over, there is just no way they can continue the story.

It's less of a "true ending" and more of a "i can't think of a way of continuing it"
It's clear they left it open for more, though, going by Rebellion's ending. The existence of the concept movie proves they wanted to do more.

A show is never just a show. By it's nature it will always at least be a reflection of the society from which it was produced.

>They are the key players. With their character arc over, there is just no way they can continue the story.

Then what was the purpose of the concept movie? They clearly have ideas of the direction they want to go.

Madoka is a combination of Jesus and Bodhisattva. Butcher mix and matches when it comes to his messiah protagonists.

>When asked about Homura's position at the end of the work, he described her as an evangelist who is the only person within the world she lives in who understands Madoka's existence and role.
>Evangelist : a person who seeks to convert others to the Christian faith, especially by public preaching.

The concept movie is just elaborate concept art. It had ideas that they discussed in their pre-production meeting.
It didn't feel like Urobuchi at all, I think they're just going ahead without him.

In any case, anime projects for 2019 are getting announced recently, it's likely the sequel won't be for at least 2020.

I'm pretty sure they're waiting for Uro to hop on board. Maybe he already has and the Quartet is working under the radar. Who knows. Magireco was made to essentially stall for time, so we won't be seeing a sequel for a while.

Or maybe that's just what you see?

*2023, 10 years after Rebellion.

Honestly the way Rebellion ended made it feel clear that they wanted to take the story onward in another direction. Homura made it clear that one day they'd probably be enemies, so they can take it from there.

The story isn't really an analogy for christianity or anything, but yes Madoka has many saint-like qualities.
The story is about hope and love. Each of the girls represents a different form of love, with Madoka of course being unconditional, selfless love. The primary theme to take away from the story is that of hope which is summed up by the on-screen text which appears post-credits of the final episode;
"Don't forget. Always, somewhere, someone is fighting for you.
As long as you remember her, you are not alone."

I see a lot of people say this but I can't wrap my head around it. It's concluded the character arcs it set up and built off of from the TV series. As far as events being able to theoretically progress, then sure, it's as much sequel bait as the TV series ending which featured Homura fighting off wraiths in the new world. But I never see people saying that the TV series was setting up for a sequel.
They're both just endings that state that world of the stories continue on past the events of the story, nothing more and nothing less.

Have you considered ai yo?

I wouldn't call her an explicit Christ stand-in, but it's undeniable that the thesis of the show is that Agape is the only selfless form of love.

>it's as much sequel bait as the TV series ending which featured Homura fighting off wraiths in the new world. But I never see people saying that the TV series was setting up for a sequel.
No, it's worse than that. In the TV series, you're supposed to assume that Homura was on the verge of despairing and would've been taken up by Madoka; a single event. This is actually how the manga adaptation ended, though that's not canon.
In Rebellion, the status quo was so recently upended, you have Madoka on the verge of getting her powers back, and Homura saying they'll eventually become enemies. The plot of the next installment was already being set up. You also have this not-so-subtle cliffhanger symbolism in pic related.
It's obvious that Rebellion's ending was made with a continuation in mind. The concept movie's existence is proof.

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What metaphor would you be referring to? Pls explain

That is an interesting take on it and I definitely see where you are coming from with that. Although to me that text at the end sounded like a metaphor for Jesus.

But isn't that what Jesus represents? I'm not saying by any means that they were trying to adapt the Bible but rather more along the lines of "let's make a magical girl show but the main character is roughly based on jesus from the christoan bible."

I'm about to watch it later tonight so we'll see about thay

Rebellion is great and it has very satisfying ending. People who don't like both of these things are retards.
Don't even wanna argue with sequel cucks, let them be.

>People who don't both of this things are retards.

There's more to Christianity than just Agape, and the first Law, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength" is missing. Although, there have been much less comparable sacrifices that have been called Christ-figures, so you're probably not wrong. I'm just very technical about this, because I like it a lot and spend a lot of time relating the show to specific Christian philosophical works.

>unconditional, selfless love
>too much of a pussy to ressurect Mami

Rebellion's ending takes things in an interesting direction but it's not satisfying as a conclusive ending.

All of the magical girls still die, it's not about preventing that. It's about saving them from despair.

When you see your senpai you barely know get eaten alive by a monster right infront of you, you get a bit turned off from the magical girl thing.

At that point she didn't know any of that, retard, otherwise she would've thought up her deus ex machina wish around that point and wouldn't have waited another 9 episodes to wish it. She just pussied out on becoming a mahoshoujo after seeing her friend die. Some selfless love she has lmao.

I really would like to see another good sequel but chances for it are very small(even for a bad one)
>In Rebellion, the status quo was so recently upended, you have Madoka on the verge of getting her powers back, and Homura saying they'll eventually become enemies. The plot of the next installment was already being set up. You also have this not-so-subtle cliffhanger symbolism in pic related.
It depends how you interpret. Madoka is not even close to get her powers back as Homura is undoing everything easily.

I'm not too knowledgeable about Christianity, but I know a tad more than the average self proclaimed "Christian" so while I was watching the show it just kinda clicked, like "ohhhh madoka is supposed to be their savior like Jesus". I'm interested in your property we do you mind elaborating a little bit more?

Preferential love is just another form of egoism. Only unconditional love for all people is truly selfless, and that's why her wish had to be broad.

Yeah, that's the point. Madoka isn't selfless. Allegedly she wished a cat back to live in the original timeline, so it doesn't matter that she didn't knew Mami that well, plus if she and blue haired retard both became magic girls and Madoka's wish would've ressurected Mami, then it wouldn't have been nearly as dangerous of an avanteur anymore.

Considering how quickly and easily Madoka almost got her powers back, there is a very real danger that it will happen again at some point(s).

I think that it's a little more complicated than that. We ARE talking about middle School girls here, so it's not a stretch to say that madoka was quite torn up about her friend dying.

Yeah, just as I said, she pussied out.

>Jesus Christ

Who exactly is Kyubey supposed to be in the metaphor then?

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There are two books I'd recommend to fully understand the ideology behind Madoka. The first is CS Lewis' "The Four Loves" which does a good job of digging down into most of the variations Madoka uses for its characters. Its important to know that each girl, and her wish, distinctly represent a specific brand of love and its consequences: Mami, Philautia; Sayaka, Eros; Kyouko, Storge; Homura, Philia; Madoka, Agape.

The second book is Kierkegaard's "Works of Love" which is more specifically useful for understanding why Christians believe Agape to be the only truly selfless form of love, and why preferential love, including Kyouko's sacrifice for Sayaka, is ultimately insufficient.

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Mephistopheles. They hide lots of references to Goethe's Faust in the background, and Mephistopheles first appears in that story as a poodle.

What does it even mean retard? She became a mahoshojou allegedly around a hundred of times throughout all the timelines, she didn't wish for anything super grand and didn't demonstrated any kind of unconditional love towards all people. Hell, her last words to Homura are some of the most selfish things I've heared of and are essentially what led everything a stray. She's far from a saint

In the failed timelines she made selfish wishes, yes. I'm not sure why it's hard for you to grasp that the point of the show was to show that her final wish, to sacrifice herself to save all magical girls from despair, is what selfless love really looks like.

Ah yes, the famous christian character Mephistopheles, I loved him in Romans

Thank you user, I will definitely look into these.

I think in order to understand how that all works to to fully understand the multi-verse theory. The timeline we saw madoka ascend to god-mode was the timeline that she embodies unconditional love

>Madoka isn't selfless
>im-fucking-plying

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He originates with the Faust myth. He's just supposed to be a tempter, and serves more as a tool of the plot than a character. I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Because you were claiming that she had this love from the start, when in actuality it's far from the truth. She had no reason not to revive Mami, if she was nearly as selfless as you claim her to be, hell, she could've wished for some other dumb shit like the world peace or end of hunger, or anything else of that ideolistic sort. She herself even admited that she didn't really want anything outside of having a place in the world, so how do you know that her ultimate sacrifice wasn't in the end a completely selfish act disguised behind a pretty wrapper?

The events prior to Homura waking up in the hospital at the start of every loop is always exactly the same. Only the events afterwards are different.

Madoka is God.

Homura is Lucifer.

You can certainly make the argument that the show is wrong and all forms of love are ultimately selfish. I'm just trying to clarify what the show's intentions are.

And I should note, that I did not say that Madoka was an unconditionally selfless person from the very beginning of the story. However, that is the kind of love she is meant to represent, as shown by her wish. It's the wish, and the specific consequences of that wish, that are really supposed to show the girls' love in action.

>how do you know that her ultimate sacrifice wasn't in the end a completely selfish act disguised behind a pretty wrapper?
Because she genuinely cares about the plight of others. She found that preventing magical girls from becoming witches was a good cause to dedicate her life to, and that's what she did. Fullfilling a selfish desire was a motivator but not her primary motivator.

>idiots blindly regurgitating shit they’ve heard about “faust” and “jesus christ”

it’s about cute girls fighting witches and making wishes

If she's selfless, why didn't she wish Mami back to life? Surely becoming a magic girl to save your friend and countless other lives, who, should I remind you, she wanted to become anyway due to being a complete failure in every other aspect of living(from her own admission, it was very poorly established in the anime itself) isn't such big of a price to pay for such a selfless person as you claim Madoka to be.

I'll admit it's been a few years since I read Faustus, but I don't think it's fair to call my posts regurgitation

Maybe that's because she wasn't landing in the right timeline. The multi-verse theory is kinda hard to wrap your head around. If it's true, than there is a universe where you are *literally* the exact opposite of who you are in this universe.

How exactly does homura "fall from grace"? I haven't seen the movies but I assume you are using context from the movie that I am not aware of. So homura goes from wanting to protect madoka to wanting to destroy her in the movie? I honestly don't want you to answer that question because I would like to see for myself how the movie plays out but I assume that's what you mean.

>It's obvious that Rebellion's ending was made with a continuation in mind. The concept movie's existence is proof.

And the fact that Shaft doesn't seem to have the wherewithal or motivation to continue it now (especially with Gen being disinterested) is why Rebellion was a mistake. You don't have to disagree with Homura in Rebellion to think Rebellion was an unnecessary cashgrab that cheapens the original.

You're really caught up on that, and I'm not sure why. She ultimately does revive Mami. Why does waiting to do it make her selfish?

>Maybe that's because she wasn't landing in the right timeline.
that's not how Homura's time looping works. She doesn't hop to a different universe, she reverses time and creates a fork.

Rebellion deviates fairly strongly from the show in its message. I like the film, but I don't know why anyone would bring it up in conversations about the original, because they really are very different works.

But that's fucking wrong. Even if they never make a sequel, Rebellion is a brilliant thematic antithesis and continuation of character progression from the original. It makes the original more appreciable.

>I'm just trying to clarify what the show's intentions are.

>For all things in the world, if we just leave them alone and pay them no attention, they are bound to advance in a negative direction.

>Just like no matter what we do we can't stop the universe from getting colder. It is only a world that is created through a compilation of 'progresses of common sense'; it can never escape the bondage of its physical laws.

>Therefore, in order to write a perfect ending for a story you have to twist the laws of cause and effect, reverse black and white, and even possess a power to move in the opposite direction from the rule of the universe. Only a heavenly and chaste soul that can sing carols of praise towards humanity can save the story. To write a story with a perfect ending is a double challenge to the author's body and soul.

Madoka is just Urobuchi's way of creating a "miracle".

>Why doesn't Madoka revive Mami

A) She ultimately does revive her, just not immediately.
B) It's very possible that in a timeline we aren't privy to she did revive her immediately, but the show is focused on the timeline where Madoka ends the cycle by making a broad, selfless wish.
C) Madoka reviving Mami would be another wish based on preferential love, which is merely another form of egoism. For that reason, even if she had done so, it wouldn't have been sefless.
D)Had Madoka revived Mami, it would have saved her from death, but it would not have saved her from despair, which is the greater evil the show wishes to confront.

Like I said, if the multi-verse theory is to be believed, that is not how time travel works. She would be jumping to a another universe but at another point in time.

That's very interesting. Very very interesting. I hope it's not just another souless cashgrab because the fans wanted more. I'd always love to see more content from the media I love, but if it deviates from the original artistic message, it always ends up fucking it up for me.

You, in hindsight, know that this was a possibility, but Madoka at the moment didn't. Before the whole incident she was very keen on becoming a mahoshojou for the sole puprose of acquiring some sense of direction to her existence as she thought that helping others was something she wanted to do, but as soon as it became apparent that it's not all flowers and candies, she ditched the idea completely without even once considerating ressurection of Mami as something worth putting herself in danger for.

Sure, but there's more to a miracle than just breaking the laws of physics. Urobuchi also said that this was the first story he'd written where he felt like the characters had earned their happy ending.

>Madoka is a selfish bitch because she didn't throw away her life for a stranger when she just learned how retarded it was
user, your Mamifaggotry is showing

She obviously doesn't ditch the idea, since she continues to spend the rest of the show considering the possibility of becoming a magical girl.
But more importantly, there's nothing wrong in seeing Madoka as a selfish person up until the final wish. That timeline is the first and only where her wish reflects the boundless love for all mankind. The search for selfless love is multifaceted, as Urobuchi, the audience, and Madoka herself pursue it over the course of the show. It's found at the climax, as is the case with most stories.

Jesus Christ, you're dumb. None of those things explain why Madoka didn't revive Mami. They might explain why she was written not to revive her, but they don't explain why she in-universe decided not to, because if we are to assume that she's trully selfless, she wouldn't have thought twice about it at all no matter the circumstances. And even if we were to make a bizarre assumption that Madoka herlself was aware of those different kinds of love and wanted to make a wish that be trully selfless, she wouldn't have needed to consider it for so long carefully weighting all the negatives and postives of becoming a mahoshoujo. She would just wish away some dumb grand wish of ideolistic nature. It's especially jarring considering that at the start she wasn't aware of any negative conotations of being a mahoshoujo at all, so she wasn't essentially selling her soul to the devil.

>she wouldn't have thought twice about it at all no matter the circumstances
Why does selflessness imply thoughtlessness?

>Mephistopheles.

wash he the one that gave jesus his bread and wine healing powers

Because it's a different story, of course it's got a different message.
By that same note though, I absolutely agree that the TV series and Rebellion should be discussed seperately, particularly in terms of bringing up Rebellion in discussions otherwise strictly on the topic of the TV series.

It’s certainly an option to see the first third of Rebellion as commenting on that tendency in franchises.

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>I haven't seen the movies
Just to be clear, the first two movies are entirely redundant, and just recaps of the TV series. If you value your time, just skip the first two movies and go into Rebellion after the TV series.

>hurr durr you need to be suicidal in your compassion to be selfless
fuck off. The world is not black and white.

it's not a perfect 1:1 but yes madoka is a pseudo Christ figure

So what exactly made her selfless. At what point she acquires this characteristic? And in what way her wish is a demonstration of boundless love for all mankind? The only people who she saved by her wish are other mahoshoujo and even then the whole system where they exist constantly fighting faceless phantoms is still present for whatever reason.

Because a trully selfless person isn't afraid to inconvenience oneself for the sake of the other. We don't see Madoka pondering some grand wish to save everybody, we see her being afraid and doubtful for her own life.

tfw you picked Mami as best girl at the end of episode 2

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Yes it does. Because seeing others die, especially ones close to you makes you realize how precious life is. Seeing Mami's fate only further increases her instinct to want to live and not make a stupid decision that she knows will end in her own death

Yes I saw that from a post earlier in the thread. My laptop is torrenting the 3rd movie as we speak. When I get home, I'm going to watch it, than make a huge post about my thoughts on this anime

Honestly I'm shocked as to how long this thread has been going on and literally every single post is about discussion of the anime, not shit posts about who was best girl and what have you. I'm very proud of you Sup Forums you gave no idea

I feel like you chose a position early on and just feel like you have to stick with it. It seems very obvious to me that a wish that sacrifices her own existence to save all magical girls from despair is a pretty obvious example of Agape.

And you're missing my point on thoughtlessness. Why should she immediately wish to bring Mami back? Why should she believe that that is the right thing to do in that moment, when it wouldn't prevent Mami from going through the same thing again? She herself has suddenly been confronted with the horrifying reality of life as a magical girl, and you believe the selfless thing to do is to bring Mami back into that.

How is that suicidal, you dumb fucking retard? Stop strawmaning my argument. She literally wasn't aware of all negative implications and she didn't even have any sorts of doubts towards Kyubey's honesty at the start. There was literally zero percieved danger and the wish granted could've helped millions of people, so why didn't she wish it right away? When some of the negative aspects of mahoshoujo life surfaced after Mami's death, she become even more afraid for her own life, some selfless person she is. Yes, her life would be in danger, but so is the life of firefighters and policemen, if her wish would revive Mami, she wouldn't be fighting alone it would make it more safe for both of them, how is it suicidal?

I wouldn't call it a waste of time. The movies are better animated and clear up some unclear aspects of the original. The pacing is all wrong, but they certainly have their own upsides

Correct, at that point in the story Madoka is not selfless. She learns selflessness over the course of the show, culminating in her final wish.

When does she learn it, point me to the precise moment and reason.

I genuinely don't understand what you're asking for. Can you give an example from another show?

Not him but I'd say it's when she talks to her mom for the final time before heading out during the Walpurgis storm.