Cel/digital

Is there a successful way to make Digital animation have the same "feel" as Cel animation? Cel animation always just looks so much more textured and organic especially in the colouring, also just how well layers all fit together well, where digital animation generally looks way too clean and sterile and the clean, uniform character colouring often clashes with the painted detailed backgrounds.

What could be done to have the benefits of digital animation (faster, cheaper, allowing for more fluid animation) while trying to emulate the "feel" and "look" of cel animation?

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merriam-webster.com/dictionary/product
youtube.com/watch?v=jyQWXRJ8Lc4
youtu.be/l0vCY3I5yxo?t=90
youtube.com/watch?v=8oEyp-0xtwg
youtu.be/PyLIjk_V-1g?t=18m14s
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color
gurneyjourney.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_theory
youtube.com/watch?v=-sFCZhVOQUw

>Is there a successful way to make Digital animation have the same "feel" as Cel animation?
Yes. But it's as work intensive as cel animation, so people generally don't.
The difference is not in the animation, but in the coloring, as you have noted.
"Digital animation" is not a thing. The animation part of the process still follows the same regime as it used to, barring CGI.

Didn't some gundam series try to digitally emulate cel animation?

There are plenty of attempts at emulation. But they are done with filters, not by handpainting the colors on the cels. While they can and often do look nice, none of them look the way that old anime did.
I guess with advancements in technology maybe they can bridge the gap.

Add a gazillion of artificial grain.

At this point the average digital coloring looks way better than the average cel coloring. You can have way better contrast with digital since whites can be actually whites and blacks black, not to mention no limits for the amount of usable colors and their consistency since you don't have to physically mix and match paints.

Rest is up to the artists. Just like with digital line art, you still need to put the effort to get good looking stuff. Digital colors looked like crap in early 00's, but it didn't take that long for studios like Kyoani and Shaft to really show its potential.

Attached: [DmonHiro] [email protected] - Episode 03 - You Lose If You Work (BD, 720p) [5675B8B6].mkv_snaps (1280x720, 93K)

what about some kind of AI to "hand paint" the existing digital anime?
or just a filter, it's not that hard

>Is there a successful way to make Digital animation have the same "feel" as Cel animation?
Yes
Just make Cel Animation and photograph it with Digital Cameras

There. It's Digital now.

>At this point the average digital coloring looks way better than the average cel coloring.
Not even close
It looks like trash

And if anything digital colors looked better in the early 2000s when they weren't trying to make everything bright and shiny

Of course there is, the only thing that can't be replicated is cel shadows.

No. This is why old anime will always be better and cel will always be objectively superior. It's also why all people who actually know what they're talking about and have worked with both all pine for the good old days back when the only option was cel cuz it was so much better in every regard.

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Man, early 00s anime were fucking disgusting.

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Outside of some decent (but not great) filters, I don't know why anyone hasn't made a digital paintbrush program that generates "randomness" when you push down with the pen on the tablet screen in a way that tries to emulate actual paint on paper. The biggest problem besides the big uniform blocks of color that look borderline MS paint bucketfill is that it's all too bright, lacks actual color range and looks sterile.

Feel? That's vague.

In any case, it looks that way because it's literally mixed paint shot on film under real light. I guess you could print each shot out and film it if you wanted to waste money. Then you'd have to encode it for NTSC and find an old TV to watch it with shitty low-resolution.

Or you could just not wax nostalgically for a bygone era that was born of compromise and shortcomings in technology.

Oh, they're almost always watercolors too, IIRC. If you were so interested.

>Or you could just not wax nostalgically for a bygone era that was born of compromise and shortcomings in technology.
Are you actually stupid enough to think that technological advancements and business practices borne from profit hunting are beneficial to the end consumer? Please tell me you're not that stupid.

Misato a slut!

Yes they are. On average anime today look far better than anime back whenever you retarded faggots post cherrypicked screencaps.

Okay, so you are a fucking retard.

You are invalidating your argument by thinking of yourself as a consumer and anime as a product.

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/product
English is hard.

Cel-jerking is 95% nostalgia-fuelled masturbation, 4 percent appreciation for an older technique, 1 percent justified in cases where masterpieces were created with cel that wouldn't work as well with digital.

For anime as a medium and art, digital is a blessing.

Eh? Digital is far and away better than cel animation. People only bitch about it because animators aren't using it to its fullest potential.

That's not to say cel animation is completely irrelevant, but outside of student or art films, it'll never be used again.

This.

>digital is a blessing.
Because it lets studios cut corners and make a worse looking product? Do you think CG is a blessing, too?

>Digital is far and away better than cel animation
Please show me digitally colored animation that has the same amount of grain and complexity of color palette that cel painted anime has. Digital can do wonderful things, but even when it's used at its absolute best, it still can't reproduce the kinds of things cel animation was capable of producing.

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>People only bitch about it because animators aren't using it to its fullest potential.
Based on these threads I'd say there's a fair chance people don't only bitch about it for that reason. To most people it boils down to "I don't like how some anime look so I'll blame it on digital tools".

>the same amount of grain
Grain is not good.
People want grain preserved not because they like it, but because the alternative is to lose detail of the actual image.

>complexity of color palette
Alright, we're done. Get the fuck out.

>Gunbuster
Personally I like my anime to have a lot of animation rather than being made up of 90% stills, pans across stills, and stills with SFX animation over it.
>muh grain

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Moeblob, bean mouth, CalArts, etc.

Huh, there's all those words in this post, but it's like the one who made it had no idea what any of them meant.

>Grain is not good.
Disregarded.

Do you not fucking understand that actually putting paint on a brush and then painting a piece of paper, then filming the paper as opposed to producing it with a digital representation of that color does not actually produce the same colors?

>Personally I like my anime to have a lot of animation
Oh, you haven't seen it?

Oh, you don't understand the difference between filming paint and digitally trying to recreate the color? I understand. There are a lot of retards on Sup Forums who talk about things they know nothing about, so you won't be the first or last.

>Cel-jerking
Very few people care about cels themselves, they care about how anime looks. Digital genuinely is a blessing in how much more convenient and versatile it is, but we aren't seeing it in anime. TV anime is no less uniform than before digital, and that's where we should've seen most of the change.

In theory, yes, but no one ever does. Here is the closest attempt i've found (not anime but anime emulation)

youtube.com/watch?v=jyQWXRJ8Lc4

Even then you can tell, it isn't perfect. Proponents of digital will swear up and down that the flexibility of the tools allows for everything cel can do and more. While this is theoretically the case, nobody has ever produced a satisfactory example, so the thought is meaningless.

Digital coloration has gotten a heck of a lot better than the garish look of the 00's (on average), but with time comes new problems. Post processing effects are way overused and look fucking disgusting (like grease and blur) and CGI is being pushed hard (an anathema to the last bastion of traditional animation)

In short, it's just lip service from digital apologists.

Fluid animation has nothing to do with being digital or not.
Look at any old Disney movie.

>hur dur dur modern anime looks so ugly
You just don't like the aesthetic. Get over it.

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Not to disagree with you, but some of the blandness of modern anime can be put to the increased resolution.

>same amount of grain
>complexity of color palette
I don't think you know what you talking about.

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>Oh, you haven't seen it?
I have. Watching light-blue lightning flash on your screen for 10 seconds then 10 seconds of clouds isn't impressive animation. But if it's such a great show surely you can post a solid 15 seconds of Gunbuster having good animation, right? I'll change my mind on the spot if you can.

Are people claiming digital is outright better so fucking stupid that they don't actually understand the difference between the two forms of coloring? Do you really not know what cel coloring actually is?

>Do you not fucking understand that actually putting paint on a brush and then painting a piece of paper, then filming the paper as opposed to producing it with a digital representation of that color does not actually produce the same colors?
You are aware that your monitor is actually a device that receives electronic signals, converts them to light, and that using technology we can recreate any fucking color that it's capable of showing, be they originally cel shaded or not?

I'm actually having trouble understanding how you can be this stupid and pretend to have a point. Your monitor reproducing the colors is not the fucking problem, the primary filming source is.

Must be rough, being surrounded by people aware you're retarded. You'll get through it buddy. In the meantime, don't go off about "color palettes" until you learn how stuff works.

Just stop embarrassing yourself.

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I cannot teach him. The boy has no intelligence.

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>can recreate any fucking color
Knowing this, I keep wondering why so many shows use the same drab pastels.

The same reason why a character with their back turned to the camera is an acceptable shot: studios are cheap and lazy.

Anime by and large is fucking drivel; that anything good comes out of it is a miracle.

The thing that really gets me about these cel vs digital retards is that they must actually believe that all digital artwork is bad. Even though 100% of artwork you will ever see is digitally colored these days they outright refuse to stop being retarded. I cannot understand it. Its as if they don't understand what art style is. Its as if they don't understand the skills of an artist are more important than the tools they use. But this cannot be, how could you be so brain dead you can't grasp concepts such as skill or wanting to draw in a certain way?

tl;dr Sup Forums is mentally ill

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They know enough to be mad, but not enough to actually know what the fuck they're talking about. A dangerous combination.

Is nobody going to provide a counterpoint? Show me a clip of anime that emulates the hand painted look of cel perfectly. You cannot, your only argument is that it could, in theory, exist.

I use digital tools to draw but still, there's the fact that technology changes the user. The way you think about art and work is moulded by the tools you use.

Analog is always superior to digital bc it has unlimited resolution, but it's more expensive and harder to maintain.
Many old animes were made on the computers and not by the cel animation btw

>Painting a cel and filming it produces the same range of colors as a computer program trying to digitally represent this
This level of stupidity shouldn't be allowed. I don't think even Sup Forums is this stupid when it comes to animation.

There's no reason to emulate it perfectly, because just because it was made on cel does't make it inherently look better.

>everyone hates digital if they like cel
>the tools an artist works with don't affect their finished artwork
Holy shit user, easy on the retarded implications.

They're retards who don't understand how computer coloring actually works.

Digital looks 10x better

Tell us more about how colors works. You seems knowledgeable lmao

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Then outright say that, to promise the capability of cel emulation is disingenuous at best. People who have a preference for cel animation (myself included) don't usually care about the actual sheets of celluloid themselves, just the aesthetic of older anime, an aesthetic that has been completely lost to this technological shift.

tldr; don't claim it's an invalid complaint if it CAN happen but doesn't.

youtu.be/l0vCY3I5yxo?t=90
There's more actual animation here in a couple minutes than there is in a season of your favorite show.

>Then outright say that
But people have pointed out every time that while it's possible, it's not done.
Learn to read.

Not true from years of arguing with you people. The general counterpoint is "anything you want can be done digitally, it's so flexible so it's better and healthier for the industry!"

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Very few people are interested in emulating the look of cel animation, you have to accept that. Personally, I'd rather see experimentation with digital tools to produce new styles rather than looking backwards. I love seeing stuff like this for instance:
youtube.com/watch?v=8oEyp-0xtwg

>from years of arguing with you people.
So you aren't even arguing against anyone in this thread. You're just venting your frustrations about a life wasted on pointless fights on the internet?

>it's so flexible so it's better and healthier for the industry!
It is though.

>Tell us more about how colors works
I don't get it, do you think you proved a point with that? Saying something that's factually wrong is still factually wrong. Provide a single actual source that says digital coloring provides the same color range as digital. You won't, and do you know why? It's because if you read anything (I know you're allergic to learning so that you won't) you'd start to understand the inherent differences in the process, and that they by definition are not the same.

Don't let reality get in the way of pretending to know anything you're talking about, though. I know you need that cognitive dissonance.

>he can't even paint
>years of arguing with you people

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damn

Looking backwards is a value judgement, I believe that both methods of coloration or at least both styles are inherently valuable in their own way. I wouldn't want all digital animation to disappear. I'm failing to see what is unique with what you posted in terms of coloration btw.

I'm happy with my life, i've learned a lot from these talks, let's focus on the actual argument, hm?

Sure, but where are the results of this flexibility? Give me 1 example of cel emulation in motion?

This kind of posting just comes across as lazy and skeevy, and discredits you and your ideas. If user is being a complete retard, it shouldn't be that much effort to demonstrate it with words and images, instead of meaningless, single sentence insults. You guys really need to put more effort into your posts. It is this kind of unintelligent non-communication that destroys culture and community.

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>let's focus on the actual argument, hm?
You are the one who brought up the past few years.

Yeah, because I'm an anime connoisseur and I only watch my anime on actual film in a home theater I built just to see it it all it's glorious wonder.

I don't see why we should put in more effort than "he" does.

>no argument
Alright then. That's about the level of stupidity I expected from you.

Oh he's not me. He's not smart enough to be able to read 4 different posts and realize only 1 of them made a real point, and the other 3 spewed nonsense that they couldn't substantiate.

>Provide a single actual source that says digital coloring provides the same color range as digital.
Just stop.

>also just how well layers all fit together well
Uh, have you actually seen any BD rips of old cel anime? The layers are glaringly obvious, not to mention it's easy to spot paint running out of the line art and other various flaws. I remember even seeing those things show up on a polished production like Cowboy Bebop.

If you look closely you would notice there's actually very little movement outside of lasers, panning, and explosions. You can find more impression animation in a typical low budget kids TV anime.
youtu.be/PyLIjk_V-1g?t=18m14s

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot

>I'm failing to see what is unique with what you posted in terms of coloration btw.
Really? The usage of lighting, gradients, and highlights are pretty striking. It's hard to get that level of control in cel.

Do you need to be an artist to know what good art is? A chef to know what good food is? A doctor to know what good health is?

Dangerous line of thinking user.

I'm not continuing this conversation if you can't answer a question and just insist on semantic nitpicking or personal attacks.


Can anyone provide an example of digital animation that looks like cel animation or will you universally concede the point that potential to achieve isn't indicative of actual results?

>very little movement outside of lasers, panning, and explosions
GBF being the best recent Gundam aside, your point holds no weight. Look at the way they animated the heat wave, then laser, then monsters melting when they use the Buster Beam. The amount of detailed movement there is something you won't find anywhere in GBF. You also won't see nearly as much broken mech parts and crumple effects in new stuff.

He might be very well in the wrong, too. That's very possible. I haven't read the entire exchange. I'm just pointing out something I see that really bothers me.

Also: avid hostility to the newer shit should be extremely understandable. Electronic computation technologies will eventually outpace hand drawn animation, eventually. That's inevitable. But on the matter of principle it is good that people exist who will make a big fucking scene when change occurs that may or may not be in our interest.

Man, this .gif always makes me smile, no matter what. At least one good thing came out of this. Ash Crow was pretty good too.

Not that guy, but GBF S1 sure had some good production values for a Gundam TV anime. A shame the colouring is so bland, but then again that's par for the course as far as Sunrise TV anime go.

>Zero content
>Single line, snarky insult
Posters like this need to be drug out of their basements and eviscerated in the streets in front of their families. I'm inclined to think whatever you think is wrong.

>I'm just pointing out something I see that really bothers me.
But the thing is, he slings insults around and nothing besides, and you expect us to work hard to educate him.
I think you are just biased because of your own stance on the topic.

My point is 3 seconds of great artwork doesn't make up for 90 second of unmoving shit in my opinion. For every shot where an alien melts there's several dozen that's just two images of an alien in perfect condition then it switches to being sliced perfectly in half and slides across the screen. I'll take modern anime over this style any day.

I would agree that what you posted is impossible on cel. It's not bad, but it just looks like another higher budget (or at least more meticulous) digital animated anime.

>Just stop.
So that's a hard no on you ever attempting to learn in the differences between traditional animation and computer coloring? Okay.

>Whatever the majority thinks can be rudely asserted without reason, and people who object can be dismissed without effort
That's all that means in practical terms. Be polite and speak simply and plainly. It is not hard to state a simple opinion. Only a few more words than the robotic grab bag of snarky facebook insults.

But that is’nt what Gunbuster is like at all.Hell it is famous for its ultra realistic character animation and the creation of the Gainax bounce. There are tons of impressive shots of animation all over the place.

You're literally retard
>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color
>gurneyjourney. blogspot. /2010/02/color-wheel-part-1.html
>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_theory

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>he slings insults around and nothing besides
What I'm saying is that there must be an understanding that this behavior is unacceptable. Then that behavior is not an effective strategy of non-communication, and cool things can be accomplished.

>My point is 3 seconds of great artwork
But it's not just great artwork. The actual movement of the lasers and heatwaves and lightening was all drawn. That's animation. Gunbusters arms moving to use the inertia canceller is animation. The bending of the Buster Beam in the swipe shot is animation. GBF has the mechs actually moving quite a bit, but a lot of effects are done digitally and added later, and there's nothing even approaching the level of mech destruction in Gunbuster, which is also animation.

>What I'm saying is that there must be an understanding that this behavior is unacceptable.
The thread started off fine and civil until he sperged out.
You are pointing at us like we're his caretakers.

What the fuck does this have to do with colored paint being filmed versus digitally created? Do you even understand what the argument was about?

>Here's five hours of reading I scrabbled off of Jewgle
It's good that you made the effort to go grab that shit. Miles better than- oh shit you still actually fell into the retard trap.
>Hurrr UR STUPID DX DX DX

Don't do that. You can just say "This information is readily available." Why not just do that? It's more effective in the longrun. Why drag the retard contamination into the discussion?

Sure, that style isn't meant to look analog at all. That clip was directed and animated by people who work in a fully digital pipeline.

Now HERE is the true argument friends. I am a cel guy, probably always will be unless cel emulation becomes in vogue.

The real undeniable, PHYSICAL and irrefutable benefit digital has over cel is this, the median animation quality (animation being the actual conveyance of movement, not the overal visual presentation) is objectively higher with time/effort/cost saving methods of digital paint.

If you're a sakugahound, there are anime for you from any decade, but you'll find more of what you want right now.

For me personally, I care more about visual direction and presentation than I do about technical animation and sakuga (which can still be very nice).

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We already have.

He (or a number of goons) are complaining about their preferred aesthetic falling by the wayside, trying to pretend that they understand the technical realities that go into making their Taiwanese slideshows. If people want to get into weeds about this, then great. But they don't - they just want to gripe about how things were better when they were kids. People want to pretend like we're talking about a cinematographer manually altering film with chemicals and tricks of the trade, but we're not. At the most, we're talking about a color palette viewed through a computer monitor and how supposedly that can't be recreated unless you throw salt over your shoulder and play Smell the Glove backwards.

youtube.com/watch?v=-sFCZhVOQUw

I can't think of any modern anime production bothering to emulate cel aside from Shirobako