Why the fuck did they get rid of the Estus mechanic? It's the only thing that has held me back from this game

Why the fuck did they get rid of the Estus mechanic? It's the only thing that has held me back from this game.

Fuck off back to Dark Souls, faggot.

Because it's slow. Just git gud at blood vials. It's easy.

Blood vials > estus > grass

Going back to previous locations and grinding for blood vials is annoying.

Estus>vials>grass

>He doesn't like grass

If you're not shit at the game you won't need to farm.

1. Kill boss
2. Buy vials
3.????
4. Profit

That's definitely a weakness in bloodborne. Don't know why they didn't just spawn you with 20 and you could pick up along the way.

literally never ran out.

If you're smart about when you buy them, you won't need to grind them. The game is generous enough with echoes that it shouldn't be a problem.

It was nice being the first entry of the series, but the concept now feels dated and unrefined since it could easily make the game a cake walk due to the higher tier grass being op as hell. That and the duping glitch didnt make for fun with pvp

Your blood vials are refilled from your storage whenever you die.
By the end of the game, I had like 300 blood vials left over just from the surplus echoes. Didn't even need to grind. Bosses already give a huge amount of echoes.

Just be careful and you'll have 20 in no time. The first two bosses aren't that hard because you can cheat them with Molotovs and a gun

they should have had it so you start with 10 vials and refill at each lamp, later on you can get upgrades to 15 or 20.

I'm doing my first play through and that's why I choose to stick with low/ mid tier grass.

Or you can just use leftover blood from leveling and crafting to buy some every time you go back to the dream piling them up over time.
Hell one 5 minute run in Hyperion gall to kill the snachers for crafting shit gives you enough to buy over 20 of them

>grinding for blood vials
hahahaha HAHAHAHAHAHA. I bet you grind for QS bullets too

If that's a good enough reason to not buy the game, the problem is you.

It is annoying that if you fuck up enough times trying to kill a boss you had to grind for blood echoes to refuel your vials and bullets. It was also annoying how other consumables didn't refuel upon death unlike vials or bullets even if you had them in storage.

testing

You can only really run out on your first way through the game when you explore literally everything single thing there is. I had to farm some once on my first playthrough, but thats it

In my second one I never had any trouble again. Surplus of 200 or some shit

I can actually think of a lot of reasons or justifications, but none of them are enough. Really stupid move.

DUDE

Personally, I attempt boss battles several times without using any bloodvials. Then try once more and begin to use them once I'm good at the fight

Whats the point of burning up 15 vials if you're only half way done with the boss?

it's fucking fine, man
estus and blood vials both have their plusses and minuses
why do we need this thread all the fucking time

Which boss did you have trouble with? BB and Amelia alway piss me of and make me run out. But those are the only times where this is a problem for me

most of my characters have 400-600 vials, stop leveling up so much

GRASS

Best system would have been to spawn you with 5-10 and have you get more by damaging enemies and getting covered in blood.

LMAO

To be honest, they could have easily got around it by some meaningless bullshit like putting an abandoned blood cart of something near the lamps

I don't get how anyone can justify the blood vial system over estus, even with the whole "hurr dur you can just buy them lol" at a certain point in the game.

I say this as a person who generally, did not find the vials to be much of an issue in my first playthrough, but it's compeltely retarded that newer players, players who are going to be incredibly unassuming of the games systems, have to farm vials at the beginning, when they are almost definitely going to have a hard time getting used to the games systems.

It doesn't help that the first couple of bosses in bloodborne are arguably the hardest right up until the end lot.

But the main issue with the blood vial aspect of the game is how it ruins the pacing.

Eventually, you will get over the first part of the game, and you will generally be on a steady streak through the easier content.

But at this point, the vials stop dropping as frequently, it's pretty sad that the best place to farm vials is largely the first area for a good portion of the game.

This looming feeling of "oh shit I'm probably going to run out of vials and/or I will need to manage what I want to do with my stats so I don't run out of echoes to buy vials with" was an absolute killer of the enjoyment I had with Bloodborne's experience.

It's ridiculous that I see people defending the system here by way of "it's okay, you can just farm the students/pigs/isz ayy lmaos".

You don't have to farm.

I fell the same way, there is no reason not to spawn with 20 vials and it's not an issue with difficulty in any way.

>it's not an issue with difficulty in any way.
except that's exactly what it is, if you never had to buy vials you would be able to spend more echoes on leveling, making the game easier

ITT: pretentious faggots defending a legit flaw

For the sake of balance they could reduce echoes drop rate.

It's a relatively cheap health pack that you can buy infinitely of in a shop in a game that drops more than enough currency for it. Enemies even drop this item, and in good quantities.

What is flawed about this

This was my first souls game and I never had to grind once for them.

Are people really this bad?

The one thing that was truly flawed was Demons Souls Grass.

I had this feeling at the very beginning, but quickly got over it once I realized that you're wrong and enemies all over the game drop them, and you can buy them. Once I realized I could buy them, I had more than enough.

You don't even have to level up that much in this game, leveling up your weapons and using gemstones is all you need.

I agree it's a worse mechanic.

But at the same time the downsides are completely irrelevant and don't affect you as long and you aren't complete shit at the game. It really only affects new players to the Souls franchise that started with BB. To everyone else, running out of vials happens maybe a couple of times in the very first playthrough

Even with the hardest content in all of Souls games, the later chalice dungeons, blood vials drop like candy and you get an infinite supply of blood echoes to fill your bank with vials anyway.

Yes, it could have been done better. No, it's not a big factor if you played any previous souls game.

>enemies drop this item in good quantities?

Really?

I felt that after old yharnam, enemies stopped dropping them as much, and then by the late part of the game, it was almost a rare

I just hated the constant feeling of "I'm going to run out of Vials soon, therefore I will have to either farm them or spend echoes", it kind of nullified the amount I could enjoy it

it's not a flaw
it's a design choice that some people dont like
i prefer the estus system because it makes the game easier and when you're fighting a boss you dont need to worry about dying and wasting your vials

Did we play the same game?

Yes, I'm literally playing it right now, and I'm always at max vials because enemies drop them so much. Not to mention the health regain mechanic.

I'm telling you, I'm not getting this feeling that you're getting which is preventing you from enjoying the game.

>Because it's slow.

I don't follow. Wouldn't it be functionally quicker to just increase the speed one drinks estus (to the same speed blood vials currently are)? Then there would be no need for those low on blood vials to farm and the game would be functionally quicker for those people. Additionally, the game would be exactly the same as for those that didn't need to farm in the first place.

It also serves the double purpose of punishing you for dying. If you die after using your healing items stupidly, they're gone for good.

It exists for the same reason you respawn at a lamp / bonfire and not directly outside the boss room.

>if you die after using your healing items stupidly

as opposed to a new player who genuinely struggles with the game using them because they actually have to?

Honestly, I don't see any logical argument behind blood vials other than to make the game seem more obnoxious purposefully.

Unlike Estus, they fuck with the general pacing of the game

OK, I can see it that way.
Maybe they where trying to replace the hollowing system with this.
But personally I still prefer hollowing or even ember form mechanics.

Moon rune + chalice dungeons
Even at depth 3 you get mad blood echoes. Depth 5 each kill is at least 10K echoes.

Blood vial farming is really only a problem pre forbidden woods, easily the hardest part of the game. Once you beat Vicar Amelia echoes come in easy.

If the only argument in favor of blood vials is "They drop so frequently and you can so easily buy them it's trivial to always have 20 anyway" then why wouldn't you just remove the middle man and guarantee them?

Because you have to work for them
>why do i have to kill enemies, why can't i just have echoes
>why do i have to play the game, why can't i just beat it with one button

this is what you sound like

Killing enemies is why people play the game, you goober, why would anyone want that part streamlined out? Nice way to argue against a point I didn't make though. It's not Collect Healing Items Borne.

Why is it not possible for a part of a game one enjoys and likes a lot to be flawed? That's okay.

I don't see the argument for enemies respawning or having to run from a bonfire, or losing echoes / souls when you die, other than it making the game more obnoxious purposefully

That's what you sound like.

>Maybe they where trying to replace the hollowing system with this.
That's the way I see it, it's a much smaller issue than the recurring shitposters make it out to be.

Blood vials >>>>>> estus

Estus heals way too much late game and can't be punished well enough, vials only heal 1/3 and can be parried

Only bad thing is farming for them but unless a boss fucks you hard you should have enough always

I'm just arguing with you that it's not flawed because it's what you do in literally every other game

You kill enemies, you pick up health packs, or you buy them

Why is this considered a flaw? I'ts a normal mechanic that's been in video games for years

You guys are spoiled by estus

Comparatively if they were action games

dark souls:

>start a level with full health and several healing items
>die
>start a level with full health and several healing items

Bloodborne:

>Start a level with full health and however many healing items you have left
>die
>run out of healing items, and now you have to either buy a load more or farm them from previous areas

It's far worse in every way, I don't get the defence.

I get it, you want the game to be easier.

Why stop there though, let's also add checkpoints so that now when you die you don't have to replay an entire area! All of your souls are automatically saved because it was really lame and obnoxious losing your souls when you died!

Again, what other game other than dark souls does this?

What other games refills your healing items for you when you die?

It's a punishment for dying

Yes, I get that grass and blood vials are just potions, which have been an RPG staple forever. There are plenty of things about RPGs that have been refined over time, and I think estus is on the right track of doing so.

I totally agree that late game estus in some of the souls is too powerful (especially 3, jesus christ). I just think blood vials were a step backwards in some ways, but I understand if you see it as a classic part of RPGs that you like.

Me arguing this against you is probably very similar to people arguing against me liking Morrowind dice roll style combat.

Would then the ideal be for estus flasks to be parryable and limited in their health regain?

Just got this game and is the online community just dead? Takes forever to co-op or invade.

Set matchmaking to worldwide

Also its not dead but definitely not as active as DS3 is now

>morrowind dice roll style combat
We really are different people

How can you enjoy that? Nothing bothers me more than RNG in a video game

I prefer skilled inputs and proper hitboxes, so much more satisfying

I'll say this: estus is a fine mechanic,, though it's kinda op in 3, but bloodborne's vial system is also not bad. As for the question in OP, it's simply not dark souls, it's bloodborne

And the closer these games are to action games, the better.

>arguing over such a small irrelevant part of the game

that is strictly in the pvp/guns sense though, vials can't be parried by beasts.

Vials are also ridiculously quick as well, outside of the parrying defence, there is almost no strategic value to how you use them.

In addition, Vials are a strict 40% heal.

Estus is a set healing value, which means that comparatively, vials on higher health builds are about as useful as estus are on higher health builds.

I love that it seems no single bb player here can even begin to emphasise with newer players, people who possibly started the series with BB, people who will comparatively find the game ridiculously difficult, even from just a simple normal enemy-enemy standpoint.

Think about how these players will find the experience in terms of blood vials, and how they will want to level up as well, the pacing is absolutely fucked as a result.

Once you are good you will likely have a decent amount stored, but at this point you have to question, why bother with the non-regeneration system in the first place?

It seems overall like a poor attempt to make the game more frustrating, it comes along with issues like the lamp-dream-lamp teleportation system, ideas that seem arbitrary and useless rather than as genuine evolutions of the series.

As far as Morrowind combat, I just come from a pen and paper background and Oblivion and Skyrim have both adequately proven Bethesda is pretty garbage at making actually entertaining real time combat.

I enjoy dice rolls for the type of game because it leaves room to focus on a lot more things than twitch skills. That, and I just like numbers.

>the healing system in an action game is a small irrelevant part of the game

Genuine laughter.

BB's healing system is vastly inferior to the souls games by the way, it seems like they wanted the game to feel more like demons souls.

The only thing that's good about it is the parrying of healing.

Tbh, new players would probably prefer the blood vial system to the estus system because the estus system was introduced in dark souls

They may feel overwhelmed at the beginning of the game, but if they can't get past it, this game's not for them anyways.

Different guy, but I don't like it for the same reason that I don't like that you can't rest at the lantern. Despite Bloodborne's alleged fast pace it seems to like to waste the players time a lot. A system like estus makes more sense in Bloodborne because the player would have to waste less time buying or picking up vials (not even necessarily farming) and so the general pace of the game could be quicker. Similarly, "resting" at a bonfire allows a player to quickly restart an area if they took a few hits early on and want a sort of do-over (it also helps for farming but that isn't really the point I'm getting at, farming has always been one of the worst aspects of the Souls games, from farming Death in DeS all the way to farming the Lecture Hall. It's just too easy to acquire souls/blood)

I'll agree with you that the lamp system is fucking retarded.

Hunters marks should take me straight to the dream, and lamps should be able to teleport to each other.

There's no difficulty reason there, that's just straight up timeconsuming

This was only a problem pre patch (which most of the people in this thread didn't play) when you could only store 99. So some places where cake walks that get you to 90, but then you have a boss that you can only try about 3 or 4 times before you literally have to go get more vials because the original blood vial cap was much much lower. Combind with the loading times and limited rocks and you have bloodborne's biggest faults.

Those have been fixed though, so farming is not an issue.

The blood vial system isn't that bad, since a few kills of any trash mobs will let you buy a bunch.

BUUUUT, it is very annoying at the start of the game and if you are shit and/or new to these games it's very easy to get stuck in a loop of having 1-2 vials and not making it back to your echo's because you only have 1-2 vials.

Plus Central Yharnam enemies give 48 echo's, so buying them is no where near as viable as it is later. Once you beat Gasgoine it's no longer a real problem (but can be an annoyance), but prior to that its probably partly the reason 35% of players quit before Gasgoine.

It should have been like DaS3's system, start with 5 (or maybe 10 because they only heal 40%) vials you get every respawn, and find items hidden throughout the world that increase it by 1. As well as getting them as drops from enemies sometimes.

>I get it, you want the game to be easier.
Except there's nothing hard or challenging about farming echoes for healing items. It's just a complete waste of time.

hard =/= tedious

Estus mechanic is perfect, if anything, the fact that they can drop makes the game easier.

It works the exact same as any souls, except you dont get free vials back when you die, which is wholy irrelevant if you simply aren't shit at the game. Even if you are shit, just skip leveling once and buy vials with the blood instead, there, problem fixed.

No one talks how superior vial scaling is compared to Undead bone shards. You don't have to look around every nook and cranny of every area if you want to get max healing efficiency, this is especially pleasant for multiple playthroughs when you feel like you dont want to do an optional area, or go to a certain part of a level only because you need the undead bone shard.
Vials always healing 40% (?) of you health has a much higher impact than your healing items not automatically replenishing

We can nitpick any bad aspect and then come up with a better one. In the end it's such a small part of the game that doesnt decrease its quality as a whole

>It should have been like DaS3's system, start with 5 (or maybe 10 because they only heal 40%) vials you get every respawn, and find items hidden throughout the world that increase it by 1. As well as getting them as drops from enemies sometimes.
How about something like DaS2 with lifegems combined with estus? You can buy blood vials and farm them if you want up to 20 in general, but you start with a minimum of 1 everytime you die and you can get shards to increase the minimum to something like 10 or 15.

But according to Sup Forums everything about DaS2 was terrible so that's a shitty idea, clearly.

That's a nice cosplay.