Someone you know is claiming that video games are not art...

Someone you know is claiming that video games are not art. They agree to play ONE game which is to convince them otherwise.

Which game do you give them, Sup Forums?

Silent Hill 2
>inb4 MGSfags

it's impossible.
all videogames that get close to art are imo deconstructions of videogames.
maybe rez or something.

Pathologic

Sakura Spirit.

sexy beach

i then twist the debate in to whether or not porn can be art and cite "the secret museum", which is much easier.

Games that go for meta, deconstructive bullshit are just looking for an easy out and are inevitably shit.

Transistor

flower

uses movement, colour and sound/music to convey a story.
quite a chilled and beautiful game that even a noob could play it and enjoy it.

what is 'undertale'

For people like that you have to give them an experience similar to something they know.

Something like Shadow of the Colossus, or Okami, shit like Flower and Journey, it won't be appreciated right.

Look at their preferences, and find a title to match. Once they begin to line up with the story and connect with the characters you can play the angle of how "Doesn't being able to have control improve the experience?"

Sure, when Sup Forums goes out and plays Metal Gear 3, they can feel how the mechanics add to the story, or reinforce.

Some person who has never touched vidya can't appreciate that subtlety. So you have to cheat by giving them something you know they'd like.

Bloodborne purely because of how the game actually develops the player if that makes any sense.

Kane & Lynch 2: Dog Days

this

i'm very offended someone thought i meant undertale.

thinking more mgs2, nier, drakengard.

Portal

Its short length is a plus too. If they don't finish that one, they wouldn't have finished any else.

Let him play his favourite game.
Who cares that people don't think vidya is art?

Games include art, but aren't a work of art unto themselves.


I'd suggest a literal piece of shit.

This. Journey fits the bill too.

That's not the scenario presented shit head.

dys4ia

I think OP is meaning people who don't play 'legit games' (ie something other than mobile games etc)

>only stuff I think is art can be art

Last of us, maybe.

any game by definition is art
i don't have to prove anything to anyone

>wasting time arguing over what constitutes art

What are you, an art major? Nobody has time for that dumb shit. Play some video games and chill out

Who is to say mobile games can't be considered art?

If people want to play this stupid fucking art card I'm inclined not to descriminate.

I hand him this game and let him/her borrow my ps2.

>pic. related

you know i meant something like candy crush dickhead

it's like you're saying cinema includes art but aren't a work of art unto themselves

Probably Antichamber.
Good luck doing any of that in any other medium.

you guys are missing the point. the goal is to try to find even ONE game to convince someone that video games can reach the artistic heights regularly achieved by cinema, music, or one of the other more established forms.

As dumb as it might sound DOOM. It has some good satire, Ironically leagues above that of anything in Beths Fallout games. In my opinion over the top satire is better art than pretentious surrealism that means nothing.

>only art that I enjoy can be art

Children's drawings are art, skrillex music is art, Kung Pow is art, Superman 64 is art. I rest my case.

This, now quit your bitching OP
Have a kot

Id argue multiplayer games and games with randomness aren't.

the fact that you have to explain this sort of gives tell tl the fact that no game has achieved this yet unfortunately

ok i'll bite

INSIDE
that game was artsy as fuck and i loved it.

ICO is actually a wonderful piece of storytelling

this is kind of a tepid argument. of course personal preference plays into what an individual considers "art" and its extremely difficult to pinpoint the exact line between art and not art but its hard to argue that there are works in different mediums considered almost universally to be the peak of their respective forms. the things you listed are not that.

somebody composed music, sculpted 3d models and painted all the textures and assets

by the very definition that makes it art

Id have to argue with them about the legitimacy of no video game art first. Most people think anything "Different" is good art, regardless of if it has any actual point or leaves any impression, kind of like the people who Batman vs Superman is a good movie because "muh symbolism" even though it accomplishes nothing.

Those individual components maybe, but someone also "crafted" a soccer ball, that doesnt make soccer art.

i don't understand what you're trying to say with this post.

I've got an addendum to the question.

What game would you make a normie play to convince them that games are art that would hold their attention long enough to finish the game? Shadow of the Colossus and MGS3 and shit are immediately out since no one is sitting down and playing a 10 hour game.

non not no

Braid.
Colorful and clever.

Postal 2

Rapelay

it's like saying that movie is made of individual components like music, series of quickly changing images and a written story.

movie is a whole thing. same as games.

>Someone you know is claiming that video games are not art.

Why should I give a shit? Being art or not has nothing to do with why I like them.

Also, anyone who goes around saying shit like that doesn't give a fuck about the thing you like. They just want to point you towards what they think is art in an attempt to feel intellectual.

What you do with attention whores like that is to ignore them.

Fine i'll do this in(hard mode) then.

I hand them this game and let them borrow my gameboy.

>pic.related

The OPS premise says "your friend doesn't think video games are art". Any person that thinks that only high quality artifacts are "art" doesn't understand that art is all about subjectivity. Anybody who claims otherwise doesn't understand art and that's the end of the argument. There is no such thing as "good art" or "bad art", that's just an individual projecting their biases into a piece.

The above is why this whole "are video games art" argument is stupid, because the bases upon which people try to say that something is or isn't art are always about the quality of the art, when really all they have to do is understand the definitiin of "art". Artifacts that are not "the peak of their respective forms" are still art, and that's just how it is. If somebody disagrees, then they don't understand the idea of art and talking to them about art is a waste of your time, because all they really mean is "I haven't played a video game that I really like".

The Void.

Bad Rats.

this

Videogames are what you get when you combine sports with movies.

Its a mixture between skill and entertainment.

The entertainment half includes art. If someone wants to play games solely for appreciating art, they don't know what a video game is.

Now to put videogames as art from the perspective of mastery of development/medium, I'd say KotR and Deus Ex.

KotOR*

Well yeah but that wasnt the ultimate point, the point was convincing a normie that video games have the "classy" level of art normies love so much, the idea is flawed, but its not really op's, and it was a challange to see if you could think of something that might sway them. It wasnt about your personal thoughts on art neccesarily, but more about the thoughts of the generic "not us" character that every group has, this one being not people who play these kinds of games.

im not disputing your core claim that art is subjective, but you cant disagree that one of the most important parts about growing and shaping a particular medium is designating a group of works that is more or less universally agreed upon as "good" for both consumers of the form to discover and enjoy as well as creators to study and draw inspiration for their own work from. if everyone subscribed to your theory of "all art is subjective 100%. everything is art" how does the medium grow as an art form?

you'd be right about that. Movies are like games, for the most part focus tested endlessly rewritten products. Movies and games have artistic things about them, but they're not ""art"".

It doesn't, welcome to post-modernism.

A game is like a museum full of art desu.

I think that both of those games are have too many technical issues to be a masterpiece of video games. I would argue that creating a video game masterpiece requires traditional "art" stuff like art direction and music, but also that it needs to be technically solid: good level design (whatever "good" means here), an engaging mechanic for doing whatever you do in the game (zwinging your sword or commanding your troops or putting your puzzle blocks down), responsive controls, etc.

I would liken it to making a good roller coaster: you're building an experience. The experience is not just all the scenery build around the coaster, but also the technical parts of the rise itself: the ride should be smooth, the g-forces shouldn't make people pass out en masse, the initial drop needs to give the cart enough energy to make it to the end of the ride, etc. If any of those technical parts fails, the quality of the overall experience is severely degraded.

>movies are not art

Shadow of the colossus and Planescape torment.

Normies appreciate "classy" levels of art?

Post modernism is gay

You know that goes both ways and is not a valid comeback because its a subjective statement

Not him but, isn't that the point of art?

It's up to each person to consider something as art or not. To label things as "objective" or "true" art is completely pointless and hurts innovation and creative expression in the long term.

Someone may consider Braid to be a piece of shit, but consider Ico to be a masterpiece.

He wouldn't be wrong, it's just a matter of perspective and preference.

To answer OP's question, depends on what he's searching or what type of art you want to him to experience. A lot of people consider art those games that have dramatic stories for some reason, so if it's about emotional narrative, TLOU and Brothers are pretty entry level feels.

Nier, Silent Hill 2, Planescape or Shadow of the Colossus are more advanced, and subtle, much better games too.

For a more visual type of art, there are tons of those out there already mentioned in this thread.

Any game can be art and no game can be art. Up to each person.

Also, this. Much better explained.

>how does the medium grow as an art form?

I understand what you mean (you just have to take a look at contemporary art to realize they took this WAY too far), but by removing all limits in what art can be, that creates absolute freedom of expression, and innovation is inevitable. Sure, there will be tons of shit getting done out there, like always, but each person has the capacity to filter and judge all that anyway.

This. The original. DOOM is literally one of the few game I'd consider "perfect". Other contenders: Super Mario Brothers, Tetris.

No it isn't. A museum is meant to showcase its piece individually, a video game is the combination of elements forming a cohesive whole. Elements created specifically for that game and meant to be experienced through that game.

robin williams RIP

Give them Goblet Grotto.

Momodora reverie under the moonlight

Silent Hill.

Gameplay is not art.

A certain subset. Maybe ive had too much /r9k/ but when i say normie i dont mean "bro" type people, id consider "artsy" people normies, and they like to tell themselves they have fine taste. I mean, any "artsy" film festival is filled to the brim with normies.

correct answer

I'd probably hand them shadow of the colossus.

Yes it is

I meant the new one, sorry. The had some satirical elements I could explain to a normie.

It can be argued that any meeting of artsy individuals is just a circeljerk about how good their collective taste is.

Stanley Parable

Its one of the very few games that is both a game, unique and has significant meaning for all video games.

Videogames are art, anyone that says otherwise is objectively wrong and should be ridiculed.

That Dragon Cancer.

If that doesn't do it, nothing will.

>Unique
>Meta commentary is unique or worth a remark in this day and age
No.
As others have said, Silent Hill and DOOM.

I just think of normies as people who eat up any formulaic lowest-common-denominator product, but I think film snobs and other hispters of various mediums are just as insufferable.

Nine inch nail's and doom go great together.

Probably the worst example. There's no gameplay

No. Games (in general) are not art because art cannot be failed or won. The experience of art is sufficient in itself.
Gameplay can be admired. It can be geniously crafted. But it will never be art.

the game is a shit walking sim but yeah this would probably convince any normie

Undertale.

Think about it, if he's a deluded art fag it would be the most convincing pretentious game for them.

Okami, with the music, art and that damn music. Though desu I do have a lot of nostalgia for this game.

SP is literally unmatched in its analysis of video game stories and the morality of how people play. Youre simply wrong, this isnt even up to debate.

Choice is the fundamental gameplay which is what sets apart vidya art from all other art forms.

But video games aren't art. They're video games.

Most people will respond with just "the best video game of their respective genre". It's like saying, "Prove that weapons are art" and people saying stuff like "Nuclear bomb!" and "ICBM!" Sure, those are good, but they're their own thing. They cannot magically become a different thing because someone likes them.

>the experience of art is sufficient in itself
>except for the experience of gameplay, because reasons

You're so close, it's almost heart-breaking

Walking sims are the worst example. They're hardly games.

I'd say DMC4

It's a tongue and cheek game, it doesn't say anything smart or remarkable about videogames that isn't plainly obvious to anyone that has experienced said medium for a long time. You frankly have to be a simpleton or a fucking casual to think Stanley Parable is a smart game, when in reality it's just trying to get a laugh out of the player.

You have no grasp on what makes art art.