So we're all in agreement here that Solidus is the best character of the Metal Gear mythos and is criminally underrated...

So we're all in agreement here that Solidus is the best character of the Metal Gear mythos and is criminally underrated correct?

Speak now or forever hold your piece

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Childhood is idolising Raiden. Adulthood is realising Solidus made more sense.

>idolising Raiden

>not realising its me-me

Solidus was an evil fucker who killed people and turned their children into killers.
He was also a selfish asshole, everything he did was so that he could have some sort of legacy to pass on.

Yes, though it was pretty stupid that he killed Raidens parents. But they probably needed a good reason for them to fight.

>solidus
>selfish asshole
>not Biggu Bossu
>???

LITERALLY did nothing wrong and was the true hero of mgs 2

>there are people that post that shit unironically and think it makes them sound smart

Like father, like son
He was Big Bosses perfect clone after all

could solidus beat the other big boss clones mano y mano?

touche

Not likely due to plot armour

In his prime, maybe.
In his aged state he couldn't beat Raiden, even with a muscle suit

What are the power rankings of thr MGS universe? Clearly big boss is numero uno since he fucking wrekt everyone in the lore just about

liquid doesn't have plot armor.

I liked him. One of the cooler villains in the series, I think.
>No, not just around here. I'm the boss to surpass Big Boss himself.
He was such a prick.

>Clearly big boss
>that guy that barely managed to beat some old slavs in the jungle
Cyborg-Raiden > everyone else.

I'm actually playing Civ V as George Sears representing America. Been pretty fun so far.

>Not Pliskin

>piece

It's peace you dolt.

With his sword and suit? Sure

In a straight up fistfight? Not a chance, Solid and Liquid spent their entire lives fighting

Raiden is only strong because his body, Sam is more skilled

Why did no one notice that the President of the United States looked practically identical to an infamous terrorist?

>he couldn't beat Raiden
Nobody can beat Raiden. Raiden is canonically the strongest most powerful MGS character ever. AND the one with the worst life.

You can't prove me wrong.

Change of hairstyle and outfit does wonders. It's why most people didn't realize plisken was snake until it was revealed

There was literally no rational reason for Raiden and Solidus to fight

Nigga fuck skill when you're literally suplexing Metal Gears.

Here's the thing, in the context of MGS2 (Which was supposed to be Kojima's last Metal Gear) we can't know if Solidus did any of that. The whole "child soldier slaughterin' Solidus" thing could have just been disinformation used by the Patriots to get raiden to kill him.

Childhood is when you idolize Batman, edgy faggy teenage years are when you think the Joker made more sense, and adulthood is when you realize Gordon was right all along.

Childhood is when you idolize Solid Snake. Adulthood is when you realize that Solidus did literally NOTHING wrong.

Well, in the context of the game they need a final climatic boss fight

Solidus apparently wanted to see who the stronger creature was? I got a social darwinist vibe from Solidus. He was actually pretty underwritten for a Metal Gear antagonist and a lot of his motivations aren't very clear.

Raiden obviously fought him because he Solidus was going to kill him and because Solidus admits to slaying his parents but yeah would have made more sense for Solidus to flee and live to fight another day since all of his plans were wrekt by the Patriots.

Raiden had data that would lead to the Patriots AI within his nanomachines, Raiden had to kill Solidus to save Olga's baby.

Weren't they gonna kill Jack's wife and kid? I'm sure many people would be concerned enough with the greater good to make that sacrifice, but an emotionally damaged weeaboo confused as to his own motives and values is not one of them.

I always kinda thought Kojima would make a Metal Gear based around Solidus, like his time in Liberia working for the CIA. Solidus is sort of an underwritten character and I always felt like that was because Kojima intended to flesh him out more and maybe explore why he killed Raiden's parents or even who Raiden's were in the first place

I also always figured Kojima would make an MGS set in WW2 with The Boss as the playable character. I just assumed that was just a given but I guess not

But yeah, pretty anal devastated about no WW2 MGS.

Oh yeah shit that's right, he wanted to decapitate Raiden and get the nanobots in his head for information about the Patriots

>Childhood is being an edgelord that thinks a lunatic who raises child soldiers and only wants to "save" the world so he can finally be in power
>Adulthood is realizing Raiden is actually the best character in the series in MGS2

>when you realize Gordon was right all along
Fucking this. Gordon just wanted to be a good cop, chilling with his friends and have a normal and happy life. But then those faggots came and everything went to shit.

Raiden and Solidus fucking know each other, Raiden didn't hear from the Patriots that Solidus is a monster, he heard it from Raiden.

Something a lot of people dont know about Kojima is that he never planned for Metal Gear to become a series.
He wanted the last game to be Metal Gear Solid 1, he thought it was a good stand alone story (mostly) that was primarily made because he wanted to do 3D story telling and he already had an IP to do that with.
Then he said the same thing about MGS2 (which is why the story is so weird, what with Ocelot running off with a RAY randomly at the end).
Then he said the same thing about MGS3 ect ect.
The MGS series was so well recieved and made so much moiney Konami kept making Kojima make them against his wishes.
Just though you should know, it explains a lot about the story of the series, you can even see in the end of MGS1, the series could've ended with Liquid dead and snake riding into the sunset with Meryl/Otacon, but Konami (understandably) wanted more.

How do you know that wasn't just a set of implanted memories when he was put into the Big Shell simulation? How do you know it wasn't VR simulating Solidus as a villain to brainwash Raiden into killing their only legitimate opposition.

I guess, it just really feels like he was setting up a WW2 themed MGS.

About Nazi scientists and even earlier precursor to Metal Gear than the Shagohod.

youtube.com/watch?v=ecyqZO2RxSo

I don't know why more people aren't aware of this. It's why you have to look at every game as self contained and not think about the sequels while you're playing them.

Solidus outright fucking admits that he killed Raiden's parents and explains their relationship in the Liberian Civil War.

Solidus was also willing to let Fortune nuke and kill thousands of people for the sake of a distraction. People that try to pain Solidus as anything less than an egocentric hyper-cunt are extremely unobservant or skipped cut scenes.

Uh the ends justify the means???

Solidus would have been a teenager during the civil war. I doubt there's much story to tell there, anyway.

I don't think Solidus is underwritten at all. His motivations and goals are perfectly clear.

Not in this case.

>free the world from the technogods that are controlling all of humanity
I think the ends justify the means, bro.

I really never want to hear about or see The Boss ever again.

>wasn't going to make a MGS4

Nah, that's retarded, I don't buy that for a second. There's no way he couldn't have intended to make more by introducing so many new and unresolved threads into the plot like the Patriots, Wisemen, Liquid reutrning and Ocelot escaping with a Metal Gear

Why?

Solidus is just salty the Patriots are denying him a legacy. Every action done by him is for self aggrandizement alone. That's why his actions serve as a foil for snake's work within philanthropy whose sole purpose is covert bit with an altruistic motive.

Solidus only starts admitting that he killed Raiden's parents after his speech when he explained his motivations to him, and possibly began to win him over. Him going, oh by the way, I killed your parents" seems pretty convenient, and don't forget that scene takes place inside of the Patriots simulation after it resisted being broken down by Emma's virus. The patriots could have influence Solidus to say that, or just be lip syncing him to give Raiden some direct reason to hate Solidus. Keep in mind, information control and manipulation is a major theme of MGS2.

Also, his plan wasn't to nuke people, it was to detonate the bomb high above New York city, to use the EMP to disable some of the Patriots AI. Ultimately though, yes this is going too far and puts too many lives at risk, which is why Solidus is ultimately the villain.

Tons of stories do this. You're just not used to having to fill in the gaps yourself.

>all I want is to be remembered

But he had already been President. There's no way the Patriots could edit that out of out history.

MGS1 was supposed to be the last one, so 2 was him doing whatever the hell he felt like with the series. It was a game more about its themes and messages than its plot and characters.

> #
>Solidus would have been a teenager during the civil war. I doubt there's much story to tell there, anyway
Solidus had the body and mind of a 40 year old when he was a "teenager"

Nothing in this series made sense

>The patriots could have influence Solidus to say that, or just be lip syncing him to give Raiden some direct reason to hate Solidus
I never even thought about that. That's pretty cool actually.

Not really. The majority of people lived relatively normal lives at that point, even with the Patriots' increasingly tighter grip. Things weren't that desperate yet. Solidus was just self-centered and working with limited time and saw Fortune's desires as an easy way of pawning off Arsenal Gear so it would get their attention.
Kojima said it himself that he intended on leaving those things as mysteries. It's why MGS3 was a prequel that only obliquely referenced the Patriots and Liquid's return.
>The patriots could have influence Solidus to say
I mean, I guess. But then you're just going into bullshit territory that's unjustified when the story works without such a bizarre assumption.
>Also, his plan wasn't to nuke people
That's not what I'm talking about, though. I'm talking about his exchange with Fortune where he admits that Arsenal Gear was never the real goal.

But that wasn't Solidus. It was George Sears a false identity completely divorced from who he actually was.

That's unlikely and unsupported by the games. If he was already aging that rapidly as a teenager he would have been long dead by the time of MGS2.

Because she's a boring character with an importance that's been inflated to the point of tedium. The only thing that ever made The Boss interesting was her affect on Big Boss and the contrast between the two. That's it. She never needed to appear or be referenced outside of MGS3.

>he majority of people lived relatively normal lives at that point
First off. We don't actually know this.

Secondly now that the story was forced an explanation we see that the world got WAY worse because of the patriots. The war economy in 4 is much worse than a possible nuke.

Also weren't they going to detonate it in air to shut off all electronics or something?

Well there are also 6 different writers for MGS2 so maybe Kojima didn't intended for himself to make another but theres no doubt the overall story would have been resolved with or without him and I'm sure he's not TOO torn up about making more Metal Gear games considering he has lots of creative control and makes millions of each one. I understand being burnt out on something, it happens to lots of filmmakers and writers but Kojima was in a really sweet place so I don't feel too bad about hearing him being dragged back on board to make more games.

Fuck you, whats that supposed to mean?

>whats that supposed to mean?
It means you don't got an imagination, beeyatch. MGS2's ending was perfect.

I wouldn't say that's bullshit territory considering the whole game is based on lies, manipulation, and simulated events. Fuck, the Tanker incident is also included in this. You're not playing as Solid Snake, you're playing as Raiden role-playing as Solid Snake in a fictitious version of the event.

You're supposed to question the reality of everything in MGS2, so I'm not sure why taking it to where i did is too far.

Kek, sure I guess. Raiden's arc came full circle and was completed by him finally discovering something that's worth fighting for but I really don't believe Konami would have left it at that considering the balls out of left field that are revealed about the Wisemen and Liquid randomly coming back and escaping.

I don't doubt Kojima was through but I am sure the series would have moved forward regardless. He's the director but he isn't credited as a screenwriter for MGS2 (though I believe he is for 3)

>We don't actually know this.
Seems relatively easy to presume. The Patriots had a huge influence on the media and in geopolitical events, but in MGS1 and MGS2 there's no reason to assume otherwise. You're right we don't "actually" know this, though.
>we see that the world got WAY worse
Yeah, it GOT way worse. At that point it wasn't, though. Which is my point.
>The war economy in 4 is much worse than a possible nuke
Maybe, but no one really knew that's how the Patriots' influence would develop anyway.
>Also weren't they going to detonate it in air
Again, that was Solidus's actual plan. I'm talking about his exchange with Fortune.
Because by that point your assumptions about what is and isn't real are utterly arbitrary. In thematic terms that's fair enough, I guess--though a little hollow--but in terms of characters and plot you just render everything meaningless and spiral into "BUT WHAT IF"s.

Kojima was reigned in script wise by Fukushima and others on MGS 1-3, and only given complete creative control at MGS4.

Which explains a lot of the issues with the post-Snake Eater Metal Gear games, and makes me worried for Death Stranding.

Well Liquid coming back and escaping was more a matter of "and then Snake kept fighting his brother and going on anti-metal gear adventures forever". It's playing with the fact that Snake was just some badass you looked up to the whole game who was going to keep on doing his own shit.

Also the patriots were obviously meant to be mysterious as fuck and never have anything revealed about them. It was a total downer finding out they were fucking robots in mgs4.

Anything else need explaining? These are just my interpretations by the way. Feel free to tell me to fuck off.

>in terms of characters and plot you just render everything meaningless and spiral into "BUT WHAT IF"s
I guess it's just a difference in how we read MGS2. You're more invested in the character and story things, how the characters related with one another, their arcs, etc. I'm more into the thematic and interpretive stuff, what things represent symbolically, shit like that.

>I really don't believe Konami would have left it at that
Maybe not, but that was certainly Kojima's intention:
>Once again I'd intended for MGS3 to wrap up the series, but so many people wanted to know what happened after "2". Things like the identity of the Patriots and so forth. I had planned on leaving those mysteries as mysteries, but people weren't convinced that the series was wrapped up.
>So ultimately we ended up making "4". When work started on it, though, I began to wonder if my message of what we should pass on to future generations had truly gotten through, both to players and my team. After all, I've been conscious of the fact that this really is going to be my final Metal Gear, which means the team is going to have to continue the series themselves after I step away.

The bit with the Patriots is a fairly typical "but the mystery goes on..." thriller ending, and Liquid escaping was similar. It leaves loose ends, yes, but it's not all that strange as an ending anyway.

Best Character in the entire series coming through

Venom Snake's hallucination?

No.
He went from Super Mengele, child abuser, guantanamo rapist, torturer of souls to

Gay Zorro on his crusade against the English language.

>Seems relatively easy to presume.
Not actually. It's like the doublethink stuff in 1984. All you know is they keep "telling" you that everything is ok. For all we know most armed conflicts in the universe were just contrived by the patriots. It just didn't really get rolling until mgs4.

>Maybe, but no one really knew that's how the Patriots' influence would develop anyway.
Solidus did.

The issue here though is that you're contorting it into pulling shit out of your ass about the motivations and personality of an established character in the game. Yeah, maybe it was a manipulation by the Patriots, but then maybe Raiden is also Fortune and Fortune is really Raiden, right? Maybe Solid Snake really IS a blonde! It's not constructive. It's meaningless to make those kinds of wild assumptions as a way of justifying a conclusion ("Solidus isn't really that bad"). In terms of criticism you're putting the cart before the horse. It's just insubstantial.

No he's not and you're fucking wrong.

Then why even assume Solidus really knew either? I just don't think it was justified.

>"The chase continues so on and so forth..."

Huh, I played MGS for the first time without knowing anything prior this year so my knowledge of the series so all I've known is that all the loose ends were tied up and have been for years.

I kind of see what you are saying though. Snake, Liquid and Ocelot continue on for the rest of forever betraying and pursuing each other across the globe.

From what we saw in GZ he looked like he could legit be one of the best villains in the series, he was smart and intimidating and you could relate with his plan and his need for revenge. But he got turned into a meme character, thanks Kojima

>Then why even assume Solidus really knew either?
Because it was totalitarianism pretending it was democracy. Mass mind control is literally what the patriots' goal was. It doesn't take a cloned super soldier to figure that out.

>It doesn't take a cloned super soldier to figure that out.
It clearly did. And even then he did the exact same things he was attempting to stop.

I thought he was pretty boring and tasteless in GZ, personally. He was a fairly typical "I'm so EVIL" villain that did cartoonish shit like put a second bomb in Paz's cunt for whatever reason. His name is Skull Face, for fuck's sake.

He was relatively intimidating, but that's about it. I wasn't terribly excited for him or anything. What he turned out to be in TPP isn't what I expected, though.

How is MGS V? I haven't been on Sup Forums since 2011. It looks good from the one youtube demo I watched like 18 months ago before it came out but I heard that overly long cutscenes were replaced with fucking audio logs

I fucking hate audio logs as a means of giving exposition. It struck me as so fucking video game-y and unrealistic. Is the game still good though?

Yeah that's exactly what I'm saying. I always just assumed Snake saved Olga's kid and eventually the world because he was the hero and Raiden just went and lived a peaceful life with his pregnant bitchy gf.

It sure all looked a lot better in my prepubescent head than it did in MGS4.

So is SS actually dead?

>It clearly did
Um? He was the only one that knew about the patriots' plans?

>And even then he did the exact same things he was attempting to stop.
The ends justify the means. Besides who's to say that Solidus wouldn't have been an amazing leader once he got rid of the patriots?

Information control was the goal, not necessarily outright mind control in a literal sense. It's why Snake's ending statements to Raiden are resonant.

I'm not saying that the Patriots were right or whatever, I'm just saying killing hundreds of thousands of people a distraction to maybe put a damper on the Patriots' plans wasn't justified and could have easily backfired in terms of the living standards of people even if it was successful.

Solidus? yeah.

Game has almost zero story, and what it has is complete shit and nothing makes any sense. After fans bitched about 4s cut scenes Kojima basically removed them entirely. The gameplay itself gets boring really fast, the missions are recycled and complete shit and the mother base stuff is tedious. If your a metal gear fan and don't want the series to be ruined for you don't play it

>Information control was the goal, not necessarily outright mind control in a literal sense.
It was definitely leading to totalitarianism. They would have fooled everyone into thinking they were free when actually they had less freedom than ever before. They would have done it to all of humanity. Forever.

For Solidus it was probably a big deal to stop it at all costs. And yes killing lots of people is bad a bad thing.

I'm aware. That doesn't change my point though.

MGS4 lol

It also doesn't change mine.

save humanity from becoming brainwashed slaves>>>>second hiroshima

>Besides who's to say that Solidus wouldn't have been an amazing leader once he got rid of the patriots?
He was pretty self-centered and cruel. Though he would have died soon anyway, admittedly.

The Boss.

>He was pretty self-centered and cruel.
Sounds like a pretty good leader honestly. Probably not afraid of making the tough decisions that will benefit humanity in the end.

>Though he would have died soon anyway
After having freed the world from the patriots control and giving the people back their freedom. Mount Rushmore would have been changed to four of his head he'd be so famous and beloved after his death.

It's fairly clear that he didn't care about humanity as much as he cared about his own legacy. Though either way his means weren't really justified and the world was ultimately better off without him.