Game about revenge

>game about revenge
>main character never shows any emotion or seems like he cares about it at all

Because he didn't truly want revenge.
Venom is a good person, he's trying to be what everyone thinks Big Boss is, he's an idealized Big Boss.

Then why did he allow Miller to go on witch hunts or stay CO? Venom's entire character was "Yeah, sure".

Because there's no alternative and he probably agreed that they may have spies among them.
Besides, when he saw it fit, he placated him.
Remember that Kaz was all over killing Huey.

because he's puppet before he's a good person

zero tried to make big boss into big brother and he wouldn't accept it, but because venom isn't big boss, miller can make him into big brother and he'll just roll over and play the role he was assigned because that's his purpose

Ocelot was most definitely an alternative.

That's wrong though. Big "Vic" Boss actually does become a shadowboss of a military spy organization and start to engineer conflicts to use war as an engine to facilitate future war.

Big "Venom" Boss doesn't achieve any of that, and only achieves one of Cypher's goals by taking down Cypher's rogue XO. Which like everything else, isn't something he seems horribly motivated to do without being directly ordered to.

Ocelot has no experience leading a PMC, Kaz does.
He's apparently a good businessman according to what we've heard in PW and TPP.

>Big "Venom" Boss doesn't achieve any of that, and only achieves one of Cypher's goals by taking down Cypher's rogue XO. Which like everything else, isn't something he seems horribly motivated to do without being directly ordered to.

In TPP, XOF was a common enemy, and remember that not Zero nor any of the Patriots want to go to fight Big Boss.
If they did, they could have gotten rid of him at any time, considering Zero knew where Big Boss was hidden, and that he hid him in Cyprus himself.

>That's wrong though. Big "Vic" Boss actually does become a shadowboss of a military spy organization and start to engineer conflicts to use war as an engine to facilitate future war.

so? the point is that he isn't a political or ideological tool, he's a warrior making a world for warriors

venom is just a holding pattern because that's the function of his character from every conceivable perspective

>Venom's entire character was "Yeah, sure".

just like MGSV's fanbase

It wasn't his revenge. He was just doing a job.

Venom was far too much a player avatar and far too little a definable person.

In the regular MGS games you had snake talking all the time via codec along with having interactions with people that meant something and was building character.

mgsv never should have been made

pw should have been the end of the series

It's not even his fucking revenge.

It's because it's Miller who wants revenge you stupid cunt.

Multiple points in the game show that Venom doesn't really care about revenge, he just wants answers. Meanwhile Miller is like "THIS WAS THE WORK OF CIPHER, ZERO DID THIS, WE HAVE TO KILL ZERO"

Did venom even say a single word to skeletor?

Why not?
He was part of MSF.

Nope.
His thing is killing with words, so Venom didn't say any to him.
No need to either, he was only there to finish another mission.

Yeah, you could even say that venom has more LUST FOR REVENGE than big boss. It was boss's soldiers that got killed but for venom it was his friends

He didn't build it from the ground up
He didn't form deep personal bonds with Chico and Paz

But he probably did with the rest of MSF.
People there all loved the life they had.

He thought that he was BB

Then why did he hallucinate paz?

idk the romance between snake and quiet was kinda sad like they had the sexual tension going on but then turns out she´s too infected and business to ever take it further.
hell everything about MGS is a tradegy, saddest shit ever

You mean mgs3

Because he's the one that failed to save her by missing the second bomb.

>Venom is a good person
Given how he seems to end up complicit with Big Boss's Outer Heaven warmongering schemes, he's kind of a twat. More of a passive twat than an active one, but still a twat.

Because he was the medic.

That's also why she was in her 16 year old girl persona, and not the true Paz.

It's one of the only subtle plot points in the entire game.

Because he felt guilty about not finding the second bomb. He is the medic, after all.

Well, Kojima said that with the amount of retcons there have been, that MG1 and 2 should be rewritten.

IS BECAUSE DISINFORMATION XDDDD

Fucking Kojima.

He feels guilty over not saving her.
Also, all of MSF idolized Paz as an ''angel of peace''.
The whole ''DUDE SHE JUST FORGOT ABOUT HER BEING CIPHER, SHE'S A QT INNOCENT WAIFU'' is just Venom in denial over her being a Cipher agent.

Was Venom ever aware he wasn't BB before the tape? I always wondered that, but then again he does look surprised at that part. hard to tell.

But we still know that Big Boss's warmongering schemes are canon. MGS1 confirms this, MGS4 confirms this.

Do we?
All of Big Boss' backstory from MGS1 has been retconned to hell.

>Ocelot has no experience leading a PMC,
In the future he leads five of them. And even at this time Ocelot has has command experience leading renegade, doubledealing on intelligence agencies, choosing advantageous sides to sign allegiance to, and profiteering for himself. All things that, in the game's own conceit: Cypher knew Big Boss knew.

Ocelot clearly has the aptitude and talent for the same work Miller does, and frankly exudes a mantle of competence Miller never once did.

Maybe the use of pronouns made that unclear. I'm saying Venom seemed to be apathetic to the entire revenge plot and it was only Miller that drove him to it. Miller wasn't in on the Venom swap and wasn't even aware XOF splintered from the Patriots. Unless Ocelot actually arranged to have the Skulls capture Miller to flay open that decade old wound; there's nothing that seems to be in place to motivate Venom to take out Skullface, which is seemingly what Cypher programmed him for.

Well if that's the persona you're going with I can't argue it at all. But any notion he's a character of any morality in addition to that, when he raises no objections to anything is just nonsense.

Cipher made Venom to be Big Boss, not to kill Skullface.

How can you explain the hour long exposition in MGS4 away? With MGSV it's clear the ball was in Boss' court for nearly two decades, and the regret he has is palpable.

>all of it
Nope.

I'm not talking about backstory, I'm talking about actual character exchanges. Ocelot realizes Liquid is planning on reviving the idea of Outer Heaven and mentions it, and when Liquid talks at length about his goals and motivations Snake notes that his plans were "Big Boss's fantasy." And Snake would know as well as anyone, since he confronts Big Boss in MG2.

Campbell makes a similar comparison in MGS4 both with Liquid Ocelot's plans and the current war-torn state of the world.

Besides, there's no reason to assume retcons when you don't have to. Where MG1 and MG2 contradict previous games they're noncanon, yes. But Kojima still considers them part of a "saga", and where there aren't contradictions they still apply.

>Venom's entire character was "Yeah, sure".

I think he's just not cut out to be an actual leader who make tough decisions. He's a mercenary. A soldier. A guy who takes orders and executes them. He doesn't seem to have any personal investment in anything other than fulfilling mercenary contracts and be an asset to the Diamong Dogs. He probably couldn't care less about Skullfaces bullshit as long as it doesn't interfere with his work.

Basically, he's a guy who follows orders, not one who gives them.

>Ocelot was most definitely an alternative.
Ocelot literally said he couldn't be the alternative because of all the things he was double agenting at the time.

What I don't get is why it was advertised as a revenge story when venom just saves the world and generally doesn't seem to give a shit about anything.

If venom believed he was big boss then shouldn't he be enraged because he thought all his comrades were slaughtered? Even if he knew who he actually was he loved msf as the medic, he should still be pissed. Its like he has this ultra passive attitude. Like he'd just sit and watch if you started groping his gf. I knew a guy like that. Its depressing.

Ocelot didn't say he couldn't run the operation because of that. He couldn't join Snake in the field because they were going up against Russians.

I finally fucking get it. Paz means peace and the girl acts like she loves the concept but is actually a manipulative cunt. Kazuhira also means peace but he's a mercenary and soldier most of his life. War is how he gets food on the table.

So true peace is supposed to be bullshit. An illudion. A lie that contradicts itself. Is that what I was too stupid to understand about these side characters for years?

upvoted here's some karma friend simply epic

>If venom believed he was big boss then shouldn't he be enraged because he thought all his comrades were slaughtered?

I'm pretty sure that he at least suspected that he wasn't really Big Boss. He was that guy who was almost murdered, had his identity taken from him and woke up with some vague memories he probably knows aren't his own, a bunch of guys who seem to expect things from him he's not able to do and a feud against a group he never had anything to do with.

The memories he had as the medic are probably supressed and the memories has as Big Boss' bodydouble probably don't feel real to him. So how he's supposed to be emotionally invested in anything?

He isn't. So he just does what he's good at: Mercenary work. Actually making decisions, pursuing XOF, handling the organization of the DD... he delegates all of that stuff to Miller and Ocelot because he neither can, nor does he want to do it.

ITT: Post video games with better revenge stories than MGS5

...

Well maybe his goal was just to bring "A" Big Boss back and sure it's mighty convenient both woke up within a week of one another, but if his plan was just to double the chance of it happening, he had to see the repercussions.

Zero knew Skullface had it in for BB which is why he went through all the lengths to hide him, and set up a direct network line to put him back into contact with the remnants of his army. That conflict only ends with the sudden disinterest or the destruction of XOF.

EXPLAIN THIS SHIT!?
HOW CAN PEOPLE DEFEND VENOM AS A CHARACTER!?

It's not about Snake wanting revenge, the story is about the cycles of revenge.

Christ people.

>sure it's mighty convenient both woke up within a week of one another
Venom wasn't in coma, he was just kept dormant while they brainwashed him.

Why did he just let Huey go?
What he did put in a coma for 10 years.
Why has he so above it all?
Didn't make sense.

What would real Big Boss do to Huey?

>second bomb
Wasn't that just the GZ ending. I thought the reality was the helicopter crash and Paz just fell out...

Well that's an awful lot of supposition.

The only thing we hear Venom talk about feeling weird after his hospital stay was the phantom pain, and the occasional dulling of color Venom has no reaction to forgetting all the languages he knows.

Fucking nailed it, bravo

No that was information presented in a flashback in a room that didn't exist when Venom talked to someone that didn't exist.

>Why did he just let Huey go?

Because Snake finally sees the truth.

The whole game is nothing but HURR THOSE BASTARDS ARE GOING TO PAY FOR THIS and it fucks up Diamond Dogs something fierce. Skullface is gone, yet Miller is still a bitter cunt and the parasite comes back to fuck them over again anyway.

Snake finally does the right thing, he lets go.

>Anger is an acid that can do more harm to the vessel in which it is stored than to anything on which it is poured.

Pottery.

So the plan was just kept on ice for 9 years for crazy 'cuz? Or did it just take exactly 9 years for the programming to finish?

The former doesn't seem like it actually facilitated the plan Zero had to pass off a fake Snake as real. But the latter is the same damn case of coincidental timing.

That would of been nice if there had actually been some development for him to think this way, other than him murdering sick people for an edgy moment.

Tons of missions in the game are indirectly caused by DD's actions. They basically create more issues than they solve.

It's explained poorly in cutscenes but it's actually in tapes and briefing files.

And then Huey dies adrift off the shore of Africa?

He somehow makes it to the United States and remarries so Otacon can fuck his wife and cry about it later.

That reveal is my least favorite part of MGS2. Otacon's dad working with Big Boss was several magnitudes worse, though. Especially given his appearance and voice--and general personality in Peace Walker's case.

This, specially Mfinda Oilfield.

In Africa maybe and the whole Huey thing later. But the actions of Diamond Dogs in Afghanistan is shockingly effective against the force they oppose, and Miller... while aware of cutouts and the like covering shadow organization's trails doesn't even really seem to be aware who they're really fighting.

I expected that line to affect venom. That he'd end up paranoid and broken. Even so, most of the game has diamond dogs not really giving a shit. Most of the missions had little to do with chasing xof and even regarding what happened to them, diamond dog soldiers on MB kept their cool and seemed to even fucking forget they wanted revenge until the last 7 or so missions.

And even if venom figured it out it would've been good to show he came to that realization and give him much needed characterization.

Except for the fact that the game never focused on that either. Revenge was irrelevant as a whole for most of the game. And naturally snake would've desired revenge whilst keeping said cycle going. The same with diamond dogs. Yet there was little to none of that. I mean, fucking where did it happen user except for some parts here and there?

Because Kojima can't write, aside from where he's disconnected from his work to some extent. Ex. Peace Walker.

>while aware of cutouts and the like covering shadow organization's trails doesn't even really seem to be aware who they're really fighting.

I think that's the point, Miller wants his revenge to be just and glorious, for everything to be black and white, but the world isn't that simple.

Big Boss's decision making for who to throw in with is limited to "Who isn't shooting me at this moment". Thus he gets involved in some CRAZY HIJINKS with a bunch of colorful characters.

Campbell the stern, and matter of fact commander we know from MG2 and the Solid games only wants to discuss hitting on chicks
Miller, Campell's replacement is a full on lecherous; wears sunglasses and hosts kooky minigames.
Snake allows a child: A boy named Chico! on the military base and gives him military intelligence to play with.

>Portable Ops and Peace Walker ended up having a better plot than V

how does that make you feel, Sup Forums?

Peace Day never came

>Miller wasn't in on the Venom swap
I thought he was though? Didn't the after credits dialogue between Kaz and Ocelot pretty much confirmed that Kaz was aware and that's what drove him mad as fuck towards Big Boss, and that's why he was going to train his 'sons' to kill him in the future?

Right but I don't see any reason to believe with how raw and seething Miller is that he knew in the leadup to fighting Skullface and XOF that Venom was a fake. I think the postcredits was just the postgame.

Never watched Apocalypse Now. It good?

Why would he get angry if he was in on it?
Kaz wasn't in on the swap. Zero said to help Snake. They never told him THAT Snake wasn't the real BB.

Zero told him to be ready when Big Boss wakes up.

The postcredit convo makes more sense after the Truth reveals. And Kaz, like most of the fanbase, was fucking pissed he'd been played.

Eh, I guess.

Except for the fact that most missions were not a result of diamond dogs actions and most of those contracts were just taken for cash rather than to pursue XOF. Most missions were in conflicts that were already started and snake was more or less an interloper. Never intensifies the conflicts either or add new parties. Mfinda oilfield and a few other missions were the only time this happened.

Would solid snake have wanted revenge if it was his comrades?

/thread

Criticizing MGSV during european time is like going to r/mgs and saying MGSV isnt a perfect 10/10 and kojima might not be a flawless genius.

This, jesus fuck. Like clockwork. And spanish fags gush all over mgs games.

Pretty much this.
When you hype up your game to be a bloody, ugly path of revenge but then the fourth complete sentence your main character utters is "Kaz, revenge is stupid, we're fighting for the future" you have no right to be surprised that players turn apathetic.

It makes me love PO and PW more than I already did, but mostly it just makes me sad.

he's moral because he's a 'healer', he cares about his men, he helps children and animals, and he thinks seeking revenge is futile

it's a dogmatic kind of morality most of the time, but he wouldn't even kill huey

he doesn't ever get any facial expressions that you can identify except squinting frustration and glazed-over exhaustion, so that doesn't count for much

>Why did he just let Huey go?
Because the series' continuity demanded it.
Kojima fucked up colossally by putting a character that he KNEW he couldn't kill off, in a situation where other characters had the motives and every means to kill him, only to have them not do it for no apparent or logical in-world reason.

kojima didn't write himself into a corner by doing that at all, he could've just had huey escape when he was awaiting execution or huey could've bargained with new information or a million other things

>Ocelot exudes a mantle of competence
That's because in TPP he was written as a disgusting Mary Sue who always does and says everything just right, while conversely Miller was made the butt of every joke.

Ocelot was just an enciclopedia of exposition with no personality.
V ruined ocelot.

>Venom's entire character was "Yeah, sure".
that's every Snake in the series. they always do as they're told, no exceptions. Venom emboides that meme.

actually it's every other character in the game wanting revenge

Kaz wants revenge against Skull Face and Huey, and later Big Boss

Quiet wants revenge against Venom

Huey wants revenge against Skull Face

Eli wants revenge against Big Boss

Skull Face wants revenge against Zero and western culture

etc.

I think that guy was talking about how Venom isnt vocal and barely speaks unlike the MC in other mgs games. Not about taking orders.
Also, in PW he's doing what he wants, not obeying. It should be the same in V.

There is a huge difference in MC intervention and interaction comparing V to other mgs games, there's no denying that.

>Revenge was irrelevant as a whole for most of the game.

yeah except for it being the driving motivation for literally half the cast

jesus no wonder Kojima got rid of the cutscenes, it's not like you ADD riddled children ever pay attention

It's truly amazing the amount of side justifications people come up with that are nowhere in the game or said by kojima, only to defend MGSV shotcomings.
This thread is a perfect example of fans filling the gaps with head canon and personal interpretations to compensate for the pregressive lack of writing skills by kojima.

>unless an artist specifically states something it's "headcanon"

well i guess every painting ever was made by a hack who never had anything to say

Never said that, stop being a defensive fanboy.

Some things are implied or easily assumed, but many are straight up bullshit made to compensate kojima lack of writing skills. You probably can't see that and can only talk in greentext and memes but that's what makes you a fanboy.

>comparing Kojima writing to painting and actual art
K
E
K

Holy shit.
Kojimbo cock is lodge in your mouth user. Put it in your ass.

your pic is just another example of how you got duped my man

the game never features outer heaven, it's all about mother base

Outer heaven is what the real BB is building offscreen and where he becomes a demon