How to fix Undertale:
How to make Undertale a Good Game:
1) Remove the extremely one-sided morals and revamp the plot to give pacifism flaws and genocide more benefits.
2) Increase the difficulty of fights by punishing you for choosing bad actions or attacking.
3) Make the Genocide ending less of a grind by making some enemies weaker and some more determined to defeat you.
4) Give more options than simply kill/no kill. Remove all instances of the illusion of choice, it's pure laziness and I can't imagine that for as long as Undertale took to make, it could have had much more content and story splits.
5) Increase the Difficulty of several ingame bosses.
6) Remove Alphys being even more annoying of a cunt than Alia in Megaman X5 by removing her constant popups in Hotlands
6b) Alternatively, give her an optional yet satisfying possible death scene which conflicts pacifistfags
7) Add more enemies who are irredeemably evil--encouraging trying to run away further. Realistically, there are types of people so insecure, arrogant, or have some sort of justification for killing you, and are unwilling to change.
7b) Maybe add a somewhat out-of-place edgy character who makes creative banter/insults with the occasional swear for comedic purposes.
8) Increase difficulty of pacifist final boss, or make the fight just as good, if not better than the other final bosses. Replace Crossdresser Asriel with something more threatening.
9) Remove Chara, or give him a better motivation for his actions, and humanize him.
How to fix Undertale:
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en.wikipedia.org
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twitter.com
10) Revamp Goatmom's existence and expose her as the hypocritical cuntface who's no different from Goatdad, where using pacifism as an excuse for her arrogance makes her just as bad. For example, give the player the option to punish her for believing her plan of using a human's soul to traverse beyond the gate and bring back 7 humans to destroy the barrier is completely retarded, and it's extremely arrogant of her to think it would work, despite the fact that humans had killed her own son when he tried to do that in the past.
11) Remove the forced relationship between undyne and alphys, they have zero chemistry and it only exists to be "progressive." Undyne alone needs better writing, as she's a very poorly written character to begin with, and she's STILL best girl.
12) Improve the art style.
13) Finish Gaster Story Arc.
14) Make the Optional Bosses more rewarding to fight, they're uncommon but they're more like minibosses than real bosses.
15) Add in hard mode.
16) Make Neutral Optional before Pacifism, not Required.
16) Add Genocide/Neutral Exclusive Areas.
17) Make Killing Bosses in Neutral more impactful, like killing papyrus makes Undyne more bloodthirsty, or Killing Undyne makes the robot-sections actually try to kill you, etc.
18) Instead of making the self-aware characters the only three-dimensional characters in the game, give non-self-aware characters existential crises to give the player a perspective of an ignorant character.
19) Keep Payprus a One-Dimensional comic relief, he's perfect as is.
20) Actually explain why Flowey retains his memory but not San's from the time resets.
Anything else?
Can we add more memes and lesbians?
>20) Actually explain why Flowey retains his memory but not San's from the time resets.
Because Flowey had Determination and Sans didn't. There's literally an entire hour-long section of the game where they explain this.
You sound like someone who just watched an LP on fast forward and didn't actually play the game.
Shit thread.
>Points out literally one mistake.
>"You've never played the game lmao kys"
ebin, literally haven't played in months and I don't remember tiny details like that.
How would anything else I've mentioned by a hamper on the game?
kill yourself
Out
make it actually difficult to get the best ending
cave story got that right
It's not supposed to be a balanced game, just a feel-good story with a darker side if you choose to take that route.
Honestly I wouldn't touch it.
But user
Genocide difficulty is the hardest ending
>feel good
>when goatmom exists and is a stupid cunt
>when alphys exists and is a stupid cunt
>when best girl is taken by worst girl
"No"
Undermemefags can't stand their favorite game being criticized
Is this pasta? Very autistic either way.
>Analyzing a game and how it could be improved is autistic
Why?
>15) Add in hard mode.
>13) Finish Gaster Story Arc.
>These will never be done because the guy who made it said fuck it and left
just
Undertale 2's better.
>listing all this nitpicking shit
>game is not beta/being made
>people already played it and moved on
>even creator of the game doesn't even care at this point
>actually unironicly "analyzing" vidya to begin with
How is this not autism?
Fucking weasel-faced fuck.
>Listing the majority of things that would change a good game into a god-tier game is autism.
>Implying if these changes weren't implemented right before the game was released wouldn't have raised it from a 6/10 to a 9/10.
>Implying there's anything wrong with analyzing vidya if it gives the opportunity for a developer to see it and implement those facets in their own games, making for better games.
>Implying it wouldn't be better the game was better in general.
>STOP POINTING OUT WHY THIS GAME IS BAD!!!!!!!!!
you sound angry
>trying to be not "es jew wee" but failing
Half of those things aren't actually improving the game but rather changing it into something else that better suits your tastes, which is not the same.
>Make the game more complex, less hypocritical, add content, make it more challenging, and remove bad design choices and things that hamper the game.
>"That wouldn't make the game better, you're just changing it to suit your taste."
wow, nice.
next you're gonna defend the illusion of choice, I presume?
What do you think about Toby Fox's gaming habits?
>EVERYTHING IS AUTISM XD
>>>/reddit/
TL;DR
1) Delete game
It's just a game, why do you have to be mad.
>7) Add more enemies who are irredeemably evil--encouraging trying to run away further. Realistically, there are types of people so insecure, arrogant, or have some sort of justification for killing you, and are unwilling to change.
This sums up my problems with the game from a storytelling standpoint. I tried explaining to my friends that ASGORE was actually irredeemably evil despite what the writer wanted you to believe, because he literally MURDERED CHILDREN, but they were still like "lol but he's a nice guy he didn't have a choice :3c".
Undertale is an artistic trainwreck. The tutorial and first chapter actually reduced me to a quivering mass in the corner of my room, but mostly out of anticipation for the story's maturation. I expected it to get unapologetically darker. Instead all the darkness in the story was relegated to a single boss fight at the end of the neutral route, and the genocide route, which was too minimalist to be really affecting.
Undertale is dishonest and manipulative storytelling of the first degree. It would have been better had the two tones been merged into a single arc, but I guess toby needed to mimic shoddy western open-world design to feel like the game had appeal outside JRPG fans (which I question him as even being among). A shame the soundtrack and some of the concepts are so great. I'd also add:
21) Program minigames for all the enemy interactions as well which decide their effectiveness
But that would have cost more jewgold toby probably didn't have, and would have required an actual team.
The greatest tragedy is that after making 3 trillion dollars toby will see no reason to improve/take criticism/ever make another game.
Good thread OP despite what the dilettantes are saying.
But it came out already?
>Implying there's anything wrong with analyzing vidya if it gives the opportunity for a developer to see it and implement those facets in their own games, making for better games.
Sorry user but most developers doesn't care about this. All they care is them dolaroos.
>implying
Have a (you)
Or purge the normie fan base?
Undertale is more of a webcomic than a game
This
best post itt
>more complex is objectively better
>more challenging is objectively better
That's not how it works.
>All they care is them dolaroos.
How do you know that? Are you them?
>6) Remove Alphys being even more annoying of a cunt than Alia in Megaman X5 by removing her constant popups in Hotlands
That's sort of the point
>Manipulative story-telling being better or worse than honest story telling is subjective.
Wow, just like morals.
Go fuck yourself.
>1) Remove the extremely one-sided morals and revamp the plot to give pacifism flaws and genocide more benefits.
It's not about the morality system though, that's why pacifism is refereed to as the "True Ending"
There is no real benefits of the genocide route besides the Sans and Undyne fights, you're only doing it because it's there for you to do. That's the point.
I completely agree with making Asriel harder though.
Remove Alphys completely or change her name! She is insulting alpha girls.
>some kid single handedly made a smash hit game
>earned millions of dollars and internet fame
>his character have become beloved icons
>his music is universally enjoyed even by haters
>meanwhile you shitpost about it on the internet out of pure jelousy
>b-b-but I spent hours analyzing his game could be tweaked to be b-b-better ! I'm smarter than him!
CLASSIC Sup Forums
>Alphys
>Not alpha
>Gets the girl
OUTTA MY FACE
Toby we all agree with you but CALM DOWN
>i think the game could be better if they did this
HAHA UR JUS JELAOUS THE GAME IS PERFECT HAVE U EVER MAD A GAME???
Forgot to mention a lot of this could have been remedied by making the monster's motivation to return to the surface be to genocide all surface-dwellers. That would have given their invasion plot actual consequence to the player. It shouldn't have mattered whether we chose to help them or not because it's a fucking videogame.
The mechanic of the monsters being weak as fuck do to the silly metaphysical soul device was the most insulting thing about the game tbf, and the literal cave of lore halfway through was the point of no return for me.
Goddammit toby you had one job.
>you're only doing it because it's there for you to do. That's the point.
It's an extremely assumptive point that's not always right. What if I'm playing for the sake of the game offering me a unique experience? What if I'm playing it to simply get more out of the game because I liked it so much? What if I absolutely hated the story/characters and want to kill them all? etc. It's a stupid point to make, but calling out people who watch playthroughs of it instead of play is 10/10.
Being criticized for reading a book to completion is stupid, just like being criticized for playing a game to completion is stupid.
Add something that goes like this: "Tvrd je orah voćka čudnovata, ne slomi ga, al' zube polomi" ("Nut is the hard miraculous fruit, you don't break it, but it breaks your teeth").
>This game appeals to the majority of people, who are retards who only get their daily intake of high-quality artistic expression through college and some highschool books.
>This is apparently a good thing
>butthurt that the fish is into carpet munching
toby a shit, Undyne is too good for her
>How do you know that? Are you them?
Their actions tell me this. All the businesses models in late years are proof of that. You are a customer and nothing more in their eyes. Term "fan" is a guaranteed sale and free marketing in their mind. Even new indie devs have this mindset. This is only business now.
why would there be a good side to literally killing everyone in existence. i mean if you're capable of winning without killing people or winning by killing them all, it's only logical that the pacifist option would be happier
>Their actions tell me this.
You're right, so what about the actions of developers who have yet to market or make a single game? Or developers who haven't made an action whatsoever? Or the developers who feel regret for their actions and want to change? Or the developers you have yet to consider or see because you don't know every developer?
Games are easy to make nowadays, any morally righteous human being can make one, and make one for more than the sake of money.
>why would there be a good side to literally killing everyone in existence
>why would there be a good side to literally killing everyone in existence.
en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org
>yfw you didn't fall for the furry bait
If everyone was into killing puppies and killing off sentient alien species for the sake of stealing their resources to evolve, wouldn't you want to kill off all humanity?
Or, in the case of undertale, what if the only way to bring justice to those who are doing evil and put those who are suffering to rest would be to kill everyone, with the rest being collateral damage?
It all depends.
Also
If his game is for stupid kids, then why are you pseudointellectual edgy autists here trying to psychoanalyze his silly game and posture as superior.
Undertale was never marketed as a childrens game, the demo and beginning of the game as well as the main antagonist always gave the impression that the story was going to be mature and have consequences.
1 is subjective and I dont trust your point.
2 is very true and is good, I certainly am pro-everything about it.
3 Is great but probably too ingrained in 1 to be too miraculously changed.
4 Also tied to 1, the concept of being able to go through the entire game without killing a single enemy in an RPG is still quite original and we're talking in a past tense about what we've already mastered.
5 once again good. This game was almost hilariously easy for anyone who wasn't a farmville mom with the obvious exception of Genocide which was the only real difficulty.
6/6a I don't wanna be that guy but her being an annoying cunt is sort of "The point"
7 This would require very extensive story changing, as the only blatantly evil character in the entire game is Flowey, and even that is left up to opinion.
8 I agree that Asriel being an unlosable boss is dumb and should be hard.
9 No. Chara is a meta narrative and fits just fine.
you make your own rpg. its not hard.
here are some tutorials.
2dwillneverdie.com
petesqbsite.com
forums.rpgmakerweb.com
Because art is an actual battlefield with stakes and consequences. Lives are literally on the line here user why don't you understand that.
People who think letting monsters onto the surface world is FINE and DANDY are ideologically identical to those who think opening borders IRL will bear no consequences (they're wrong). This is why I'll iterate the monsters' motivation should have been genocide, whether they were conscious of it or not. This is why the True Ending with the player character scootering around with Toriel felt so hamfisted. The monsters are abominations who, no matter how endearing they are, can never exist alongside humanity.
Altruism has a price. If Undertale were an honest game that would have been its message.
Who are you quoting? Who's words are those?
10 Sure.
11 That's just an overall personal opinion, and is not critical in the slightest. Undyne's relationship portion is rather one dimensional, sure, but even that falls into her character niche. Alphys' side is that she's a desperate weeb who would accept anyone who gives her attention. Once again up to point 6, that's sort of "The point" of her character.
12 If by improve you mean make consistent, then sure. Make it 8 bit or 16 bit, and keep it that way.
13 Gaster is a meta narrative meant for Toby's hatred of Data miners and he served his purpose, and continues to do so.
14 Yes a million times yes. There are a lot of pointless fun fights in this game that are very unfulfilling.
15 I would buy this game for the hard mode. Until now It's been piracy.
16 It's not you dumbass.
16 (You added two 16's assface) as far as random suggestions go, this one is the most interesting. Sure.
17 Undyne's death in Neutral is already impactful enough. The only boss that needs to be more impactful is Papyrus.
18 I dont understand what you mean by this.
19 Isn't he?
20 :^|
You are right. I'm pessimistic. General trends in late years made me like this. I swear it wasn't THAT bad maybe 5 years ago.
>How to fix Undertale:
>How to make Undertale a Good Game
add more FURRIES :3
>It's not you dumbass.
Yes it is, you retard. Undyne won't call you when you live the factory until after you beat omega flowey.
it's almost 2017
fuck off already
That's because True Pacifism is tied to Flowey's actions anyway, this is explained ingame.
The only reason Undyne even calls you is because Papyrus is told by Flowey to tell her to give the letter to you.
You have to beat Flowey for him to get the idea for you to do true pacifism. You can just reload your save after beating Omega Flowey and just walk out of the Core and everything continues just fine.
To reiterate: It's not you dumbass.
You still have to get a neutral ending in order to truly do that, though.
It's pretty good.
It's a game for libtards and most PC indie gaymurrs are libtards, really he picked his target audience nicely and catered to them very well. Sprinkle some furshit throughout to get the furfags to donate their parents' bucks to the kikestarter and there's your success.
It doesn't seem that difficult to replicate the success (maybe not to that extent), only problem is you have to lose any self-respect you might have to write an autistic furry fanfic in a video game that steals mechanics from better games left and right.
The "neutral ending" that you get, like Flowey telling you at the beginning of the game that he knows you can save and load, are required to tell the player that Flowey is behind everything going on.
True Pacifism will literally never activate unless Flowey, himself, as explained by Papyrus ingame during the Asriel Pre-Fight, tells Papyrus to Tell Undyne to Tell you to get the letter.
Besides, it's just one additional fight, and allowing the player to skip Neutral means that a lot of players would completely miss out on the Asgore and Omega Flowey fights.
Even if I accede that you're right, the alternative isn't acceptable.
sauce
>Players get punished for not completing a game by missing two of the best fights in the game
they deserve it, just like lawfags deserve their shittiest endings in sMT
I haven't played this but the characters are very interesting.
While I will agree that most SMT endings in law are complete shit, Undertale strives to hammer home (Beat a dead horse) the pacifism route. Anything Neutral is either laden with sadness or just sprinkled with it, but this is only because the world is very aware of the fact that you, the player, can do better. That's the point of Determination as described by the in-game characters other than Flowey.
While Genocide is arguably more fun, and shocking, the ending is infinitely worse. Chara taking over and just deleting the game is kind of stupid. I just resurrected you, cunt. Let me kill some more shit.
The point OP is making and what everyone who isn't a gradeschooler would agree with is that Undertale's point is dogshit and if it changed it's point it would be a superior game and appease/challenge everyone.
My only big gripe with Undertale and other games like it is that there is always a defined Good/Bad ending. Of course everyone is going to try to skew their morality for the good ending. I want more morally grey endings so that nobody is compelled to follow a single path of morality.
If Toby Fox knew he had lightning in a bottle, he would probably focus the game harder to be more niche than to be so accessible.
I still feel like the game's story is still its strongest point regardless of its great many flaws, but I can see where it can be improved.
The gameplay as well, such as difficulty, optional fights, player freedom, and a FUCKING HARD MODE would also be fantastic additions.
For what it's worth, I agreed with a good 15/21 of the points OP made.
>Game's story is Undertales strongest point.
No it isn't, fuckface. That would be it's soundtrack, comedy, and boss fights. The story is next to art consistency for how good it is. It's weak as shit, hypocritical, manipulative, and overall: IT'S NOT RIGHT.
>Comedy
No.
But the Soundtrack and Boss Fights are top notch. BUT SO IS THE FUCKING STORY.
I think you're a bit too wrapped up in some layers of pessimism to remember some of the shit in the game for the Story.
I don't want to single any specific plot twist out, but Flowey Himself and how he fucks with every single factor of the story would be my first point.
Undyne's death is impactful?
I've always felt like the game carried on the exact same way when she died as it would if she didn't.
Wait, I think I read OP wrong in that case. He meant Storyline relevant for the endgame. I thought he meant like, "heat of the moment" relevant. You know, how Undyne slowly melted and gave that monologue as she was dying? I thought that's what she meant.
Alternatively, I agree completely. The game should change a lot more based on who's dead. The only person who dies that really changes anything at all is Papyrus- who ironically himself had a very lackluster death in Pacifism.
>"Oh dear I'm dead"
Much sad.
>The story's good! All of the flaws of it such as how it's point is hypocritical and it's characters are extremely one dimensional are all MADE UP IN YOUR HEAD! STOP CRITICIZING THE GAME! YOU'RE JUST A FUCKING PESSIMIST! KILL YOURSELF REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
I think you're taking my one insistent disagreement among your many other points a bit too hard. You're basically doing "I'm Silly."
Let's just agree to disagree. You say the gameplay, music, and comedy are good. I say the gameplay, music, and story are good.
Are we suddenly not allowed to be friends?
You're a fucking retarded person and I would never truly consider you a "friend," just a useful idiot.
>Useful
Thanks?
That's the best case scenario, you're obviously not useful in the slightest bit to me because you're an anonymous user and I haven't come up with any way to use your retardation in my favor, but you couldn't understand that because you can't think for yourself.
its the best wrpg that came out the last 10 years .
If you could fix Undertale's story, what would you have the story end up as? You say you were anticipating it to become more mature and dark as it went on, what sort of things would happen? Would it take more inspiration from games like OFF and LISA to do it or what?
great meme.
>Someone made this
Why tho.
i made it for "x is a meme game" posts.
It wasn't that difficult, Final boss was easy af,
Give characters more complex motivations that ultimately justify them wanting to kill you and make it much more difficult to make them convince you to not kill you. Make some characters more manipulative, make some characters more sociopathic, make some characters more rash, make some characters poor with a family and being rewarded with riches for killing you, etc.
The pacifist ending would involve you simply escaping, because there's truly nothing you can do for these people, no matter how hard you try.
The genocide ending would be you putting them out of their misery.
Ballos isn't exactly the hard part, getting Through Hell is.
Ballos, in my opinion, was much easier than the Demon Core.
good oc
>you will never go back in time and jump on the indie dev bandwagon and make 10 million dollars
>Give genocide more benefits
it already is flawless.
>It is a flaw if the game doesnt carry the moral message i want it to carry
Hello akagi