Honest discussion about the Sonic games

Today I played Sonic for the first time.
I'm a huge fan of platformers and always loved Mega Man and Donkey Kong Country, Mario and such, but always stayed away from the Sonic titles due to its infamous reputation and quite honestly off putting fanbase.

Today, however I decided to find out what all the fuss is about and give it a try. I bought Sonic Generations, which seems to be an agreed good title (for the PS3 if it matters). First and foremost I'll say that this is not a bait post and I actually liked the game very much, but I think I can understand why some people just seem to love to diss the franchise. The moment the first stage appeared and I started playing, my initial reaction was to think it was awful. Sonic controlled in a weird, clunky way and when I tried to spin dash I ended up being punished for it by getting hit by an unseen enemy or projectile. However, playing the stage 2 or 3 times, I ended up getting the hang of it - this may seem obvious to someone who's used to playing the games, but you can't control the movement like you'd do with, say, Mario. Sonic controls in a fluid and quite precise way when you are going fast, alternating between running, spin dashing and jumping to blaze your way through the level. Enemies can be used as platforms to reach higher areas or skipping whole portions of the stage, making discovering this shortcuts exciting and fun. You can't just mindlessly boost on spot and hope it all goes well.
I replayed the first 5 or 6 levels a few times (didn't take me more than 2 or 3 tries to get an A or even S rating after practicing a bit) and overall I can say I loved the experience. Both Classic Sonic and Modern were equally enjoyable. (continued below)

Generations is a fine game but it's Sonic in name alone.

The classic mode is in no way indicative of how the originals worked. They have a sort of pinball engine using momentum physics and it makes using slopes and elevation and such really fun. It makes for some extremely interesting platforming and very creative speedrunning.

Shame Sega have no idea what they're doing and had to get a bunch of fans to show them how it's done. (Sonic Mania).

Generations is okay I guess.

Play Sonic 2 and Sonic 3 & Knuckles. They're way better.

Don't forget CD too.

Never actually played it desu

Someday

I haven't played Generations but its agreed to be a decent game from what I've heard

I strongly suggest you play Sonic 2 and Sonic 3 & Knuckles. 2 Is great, 3&K is my favourite platformer.

I still think Adventure 1 and 2 are the definitive 3d games. Sonic himself controlled great and it was nice actually having a plot.

I can't stand Adventure 1 anymore. It's aged like milk.

Adventure 2 is still very enjoyable though. Controls are way better too.

I'm glad you ultimately enjoyed it but like others have said, classic Sonic is where it's at. I think Sonic moved a little more naturally then and the games were more momentum based.

Sonic 1 is viewed as good but not as good as the others and has some annoying levels and no spin-dash or sidekick characters, Sonic 2 is seen as an improvement on the first with the addition of Tails and the spindash, with shorter/faster levels. Sonic 3 & Knuckles is the biggest game of the classic era with tons of levels, the most playable characters (with some different paths) and lots of alternate/secret paths to explore. 2 & 3K are usually the fan favorites.

Then there's Sonic CD which is like a weird experiment. It's a love-hate thing because some of the levels feel like they're designed to be annoying, but its aesthetic is unlike anything else in the series, it introduced one fo the most popular villains in Metal Sonic, and it has an interesting time travel mechanic that rewards you for using the level design to maintain momentum.

I'd say the game feels like a crossover between a platformer and a racing game, where you have to give it all you've got and crank the speed up in some sections and slow down and drift (as in turn into a ball) at the right moment in others to avoid obstacles and destroy foes. Modern Sonic, in particular, almost felt like a rythm game at times, chaining speed boosts and homing attacks together to reach higher areas, which is interesting because Sega produces (or used to) great titles in both this genres.
The ever present complaints about character and background design I think are irrelevant. The environments are beautiful and set the mood for each stage and I don't really care if Sonic is a bit taller or has more spikes.

Sonic 06 and Boom are, from what Iv'e seen, awful games, but I found this title to be particularly enjoyable and will play Sonic Mania when it comes out.
I'm starting to think some of the criticism for the series as a whole comes from not having given the game enough time to learn how to properly control the character, which takes a bit of using to but it's ultimatly rewarding. Think about someon who never played Mega Man before trying it for the first time, it will seem extremely hard and frustrating until you get the hang of it - the bad, slow gameplay you see in some of the reviews may not be necessarily the game's fault but sometimes the player).
Does this incomplete excuse disasters such as the latest game seems to be or bizarre choices like the medieval knight one? Of course not, but I don't think that should deter you from enjoying this title or others like it, I was surprised by how good it was.

I prefer his homing attack from adventure 1. It's shorter but more accurate imo.

Yeah, I sort of see your point.

Still, SA2 improved so much on the gameplay and level design when you compare the Sonic levels from SA1 to the Sonic/Shadow levels from SA2.

>Played Sonic Unleashed and Sonic Generations for the first time
>Heard they were "boost2win" so I figured there'd be no challenge to them
>I can't stop dying

You people lied to me. Unleashed is especially difficult because I can't seem to see pits that are right in front of me.

Don't believe other people lies. Sonic 1 is still the best one.

Sonic 3 and Knuckles is two fucking games, you nitwits. Imagine if every fanbase were this stupid

>My favorite Metroid game is Metroid Prime Trilogy!

...

Sonic 3 & Knuckles was, to be honest, terrible. Not because of the gameplay, mind you. But because of what they did.

>Sega: "So, uh. We couldn't finish the game on time. So here's half the game for full price. And the we'll release the other half later on. Also for full price."

Funny thing is this shit would never be acceptable today and we would bitch about it endlessly were something like this to happen with a modern game. But just because they did it in the early 90s, it somehow gets a free pass.

>Grew up in the 90s
>Friend had all the sonic games
>Played them, and thought they were a little frustrating, but fairly cool
>Kept moving too fast and running into objects
>Not quite fun enough to ever buy a sega
>Give up on the series
>Remember them fondly though
>Sonic eventually goes 3D, and games start looking pretty stupid
>I don't like the new characters or stories or voice acting or general edginess
>Abandon franchise from 1997 - 2015
>Spout shit about how 3D sonic ruined Sonic games
>After many years, start to miss Sonic games
>Try Generations
>Only play 2D levels
>Keep getting frustrated, hitting objects while I'm trying to run around
>Game feels ok
>Eventually try 3D levels
>Fluid motion
>Engrossing level design
>Amazing loops and rails and canons
>Have fun
>Realize that 3D Sonic is the proper format for these types of games because you can actually see ahead more than 100 feet
>Rarely run into objects and can navigate difficult courses easily
>Realize that Sonic should never have been 2D
>Bow to the infinite superiority of 3D Sonic games

I'm sorry for all the unjust hate I've given this series.

Generations is great but it's not really a representation of what sonic is, 2d or 3d

Seaside Hill in Generations is the definitive 3D Sonic stage.

I thought Sky Sanctuary and Speed Highway were pretty cool.

CD feels like a little much for me


Play sonic chaos

All the 3D stages in Generations, barring maybe Green Hill (really simple) are very good.

Planet Wisp was annoying with its overusage of Color powers.

Constant stomping ruins Crisis City's pacing, though it's still pretty cool in some ways.

City Escape is nice for its nostalgia value, but it's a boring and straightforward stage.

Green Hill is better than Sky Sanctuary, City Escape, Crisis City, and Planet Wisp.

wtf

Meant to reply to

>Sonic controlled in a weird, clunky way and when I tried to spin dash I ended up being punished for it by getting hit by an unseen enemy or projectile.
>herpderp i'm new to a game i never played before therefore i suck at it but that's not my fault it's bad game design

The whole game was terrible because they were overly ambitious and therefore couldn't meet some arbitrary deadline? Okay, so what would be your solution to that scenario where the whole game would emerge as great instead?

...

It really wasn't a rip off considering:

1. It was a stand alone fully featured game.
2. You got Knuckles in Sonic 2.
3. If you for some reason loved the special stage you got those from putting any other cart into it.

Isn't there something like a million of them?

Its a finite amount in the thousands/millions.

Hm. Say, do you understand that the game of Chess has a more theoretically possible moves than there are atoms in the observable universe? I ask because it's prerequisite to understanding something, which I think about from time to time, that I wanted to mention, having been reminded of it by your post.

...

Did not know that fact. But since you got me thinking now on this:

>Blue Sphere has 134,217,728 (227) levels, which are played in sequence. Once a player reaches the final level, the sequence repeats from the beginning. (Note, as mentioned above, collecting every ring and scoring a perfect allows players to advance ten levels.)

>In fact, there are actually only 128,016,000 distinct level layouts (or stages). After 128,016,000, the stages repeat, even though the level number continues to advance. After level 134,217,728, however, the level number resets too.

>These levels are not unique in their design. Each level is a 32x32 wrapping square (torus) that consists of four 16x16 segments. The layout of each segment is determined from a master list of 128 set layouts (numbered 0 to 127) based on a linear congruence using the level number. If the level number is N, then the top-right segment is (N-1)%128, the bottom-right is (3N-2)%127, the top-left is (5N-3)%126, and the bottom-left is (7N-4)%125, where %n means remainder after division by n. This formula produces the discrepancy between the 227 levels and the 128,016,000 (the least common multiple of 125, 126, 127, and 128) stages.

That 227 should be 2^27.

And OP do yourself favor, play CD. Then engage in some spin offs. Finally top it off with Sonic 2006.

>you can't control the movement like you'd do with, say, Mario

Pretty much that, a lot of people play Sonic like they would play a faster Mario and get their ass handed to them. Instead of realizing that they're not playing the game like it's meant to be played, they put the blame on its supposedly "flawed" design.

Complaining about running into shit in Sonic is like complaining about tracks having turns in racing games - and arguing that their inclusion is fundamentally bad game design, at that.

134,000,000 levels. Goddamn.

Okay, so, think of chess: each of the possible moves for each of each players pieces each and every turn, and the same which could potentially result based off of each of those, and so on. It's practically infinite.

Think of Sonic (or any game, really): Each possible button input which might occur on each and every frame, including future frames based on past or present possible inputs; 60 frames a second for variable potential lengths of playtime; and all multiplied by other variables like different playable characters or game modes.

Which do you think has more possible "moves"?

I'd say any video game post nes era. If I am understanding correctly, then my interpretation is that a vidya has more variables at work compared to chess allowing for a character/avatar to in different positions in relation to their environment.

Go play S3&K. It's fun. A few levels are a bit iffy (CNZ2, SZ2, arguably MGZ1&2), but it's overall a good experience with nice music and visuals and stage design.

I wish the classic stages handled better. I can deal with changes, and at no point is it Sonic 4 tier, but Sonic just handles kind of poorly, and then basic, important shit like rolling into a ball when you land while holding down (you know, to deal with enemies or just convert downwards vertical speed into slope speed) isn't there.

I have a love hate relationship with S1.
MZ is still boring no matter what though, and LZ is kind of stupid half the time.

you know, the other 4MB+SRAM game Sega released at that time had an MSRP of $90USD (Phantasy Star 4)
releasing two $70 games instead and spacing them out and having extra time to work on the other half was sound business and S&K's lock-on was a great marketing technique
kind of sucked for the players though, having to pay around $140 to get both parts at release

still, it helps that both halves alone ended up being almost as big as S2, S3's got some big-ass levels, so you weren't totally getting jewed (but you were still getting jewed)