Ask person for a roguelike recommendation

>Ask person for a roguelike recommendation.
>They recommend Roguelites instead.

ADOM

roguelike is a dead genre these days.

Even what used to be good roguelikes with active development have gotten worse over the years, especially popular ones like stone soup.

Dungeon Souls is pretty fun

They keep falling into the maximalist meme like Nethack

the best roguelikes have simple and elegant design, like Powder, Brogue and DoomRL

Caves of Qud is pretty cool.

Sil and Brogue as well.

Let it die

>Even what used to be good roguelikes with active development have gotten worse over the years, especially popular ones like stone soup.
let's keep these dank memes on /vg/

finish the food on your plate first

the problems are that 1) no new major roguelike will ever be created again because it is too much effort for such a small audience 2) small experimental roguelikes tend to be shit

Dungeons of Dredmor.

Literally actually a 100% true to form roguelike

It's also incredibly unbalanced but rewarding all the same and always worth some chuckles

You can't be serious that you think Stone Soup hasn't gotten worse over the years, food has been normalized, entire floors, classes, and races have been removed, and what has been added just abuse the overly buffed magic systems and nerfed equipment skill requirements as you no longer need to train your skills, just tick your exp allocations.

Roguelikes are ment to be unbalanced.

Is ToME4 good? That's the one everyone always recommends me. I don't know why I haven't gotten round to playing it.

I still don't know what constitutes a 'roguelike' game.

>food has been normalized
good change, hopefully they axe food completely at some point

>entire floors, classes, and races have been removed
good change, they should cut more floors imo

>and what has been added just abuse the overly buffed magic systems and nerfed equipment skill requirements
what?

>as you no longer need to train your skills, just tick your exp allocations
victory dancing was terrible

i'd rather play trunk than any other version

There's a Steam Workshop custom campaign for Legend of Grimrock 2 that randomizes each time you play if that's your thing.

A game that's like rogue

turn-based (not real-time) + random levels + permadeath is the least autistic definition

You're missing the RPG stuff though.

DoomRL is a pretty popular choice, so I'm totally gonna shill this so it gets funded.

The dev team for DRL is about to finish funding a kickstarter for the spiritual sequel called Jupiter Hell. Let's fund this fucker.

>least autistic

brogue is pretty light on rpg stuff (the only stats are HP and strength) and is definitely a roguelike

roguelikes suck

Just backed it for the Player pack

This game really should be out there, its what all roguelikes should be aspiring to be with today's technology. It's pushing the genre forward and few even realize it.

What's the difference between Roguelike and Roguelite? I never knew 'Roguelite' was a thing before.

I should note that this kickstarter needs 1444 USD in the next 36 hours to get funded. Thank you, man. I want this game to come out so badly. I subtracted money from my damn grocery budget just to back the Supporter ($44) tier. Fuckin' a

It usually has less focus and RPG elements, and isn't as 'crunchy' for lack of a better term. It's a bit more user friendly, and sometimes less difficult.

>you no longer need to train your skills, just tick your exp allocations
this was an excellent change that made the game infinitely more fun though

If you want a game you wont be able to win even if you cheat there's IVAN

FTL, nuclear throne, Issac, etc.

Essentially indie devs have latched onto the roguelike name to make their game seem more "hardcore"

>maximalist
I read it as marxist and started wondering what kind of SJW stuff they would try to put there

fuck my life

Everything you probably think of as a roguelike is actually a roguelite, a roguelikelike, a randomised zelda 1 clone with unlock progression, or whatever name you feel like using that day.

The name has been bastardized in the same way that doom clone was for a couple of years before everyone just started calling them FPS games, except most people don't even know Rogue was a game, so they're fine with re-using the name for games that have almost nothing in common with it.

So like, Binding of Isaac would be roguelike? Where you start from scratch each time and 'fuck you RNG'?

Where as Necropolis, despite being RNG dungeons and weapons and chests, the fact you still get to choose a single passive between levels is Roguelite?

It's Roguelike if you lose everything and Roguelite if you keep *something*, if I'm understanding this correctly

A Roguelike must be
>permadeath
>randomly generated
>turn based

Roguelites are games which take some elements from Roguelikes but dont hit all 3 point , for example:
The Binding of Isaac has random generation and permadeath but its not a turn based game, so its only Roguelite.

Oh okay, cheers. I need to update a Steam review then, I called a Roguelite a Roguelike.

I'd say that keeping some sort of passive skill like that, or like in Rogue Legacy is more of a rougelite trait, but it doesn't make it a 100% rogelite. Again, these terms are so subjective and they vary from person to person. Especially with the elitism and autism on Sup Forums I'd try not to worry about definitions and just play what you like.

>still not a single good rogue, roguelike or roguelite coop game

THIS FUCKING GENRE IS SUCH WASTED POTENTIAL HOLY SHIT IT PISSES ME OFF

>It's Roguelike if you lose everything and Roguelite if you keep *something*, if I'm understanding this correctly
No, you're not. BoI doesn't even meet that definition, you unlock new items and characters all the time that carry over.

The single most important attribute of a Roguelike is that it's turn based.

Honestly, Rougelite is an awful term, because it's only a single letter difference. Plenty of people will think it's just 2 names for the same thing, if they even notice you typed lite instead of like.

i guess thats just a sort of enforced difficulty, and these things do tend to be more difficult on the basis that that you might get fucked over, and the measurement of skill would be just how fucked over you can be and how often, and still win.

>The single most important attribute of a Roguelike is that it's turn based.
Not him, but no its not

'cause both are the same thing

I want off this ride.

No, Isaac has real-time combat, which disqualifies it from being an /rlg/-approved roguelike.

Roguelikes must be: dungoen-crawling games with turn-based combat and movement, RNG dungeons and loot, permadeath and tile-based graphics. There's no rule excluding games that allow persistent loot or skills between levels but once you've finished a run, none of your loot or skills can pass over onto the next character.

Isaac is a roguelite, FTL is a roguelite, Necropolis is an ARPG.

Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup (DCSS), Nethack, Ancient Domains of Mystery (ADoM) and Caves of Qud (CoQ) are all examples of true roguelikes.

It's an incredibly specific niche of games, and they also tend to be hard for new players to get into, which is why new entries to the genre are very few and far between.

If you want to get a feel for the gameplay, DCSS is probably the most noob-friendly experience.

Dont get to bothered by things like this friend, the community has been arguing over the definitions and the words themselves since the genre existed.

>Not him, but no its not
There are rougelikes that bend the rules when it comes to permadeath, and some that have set starting or town levels that aren't strictly random.

There isn't a single rougelike that isn't turn-based. The whole point of the genre is that you get infinite real world time to make your next input.

by the looks its definitely going to suceed

It's not the "most important" but it's definitely a requirement. Real-time gameplay means a game is fundamentally not a roguelike.

I'd say DoomRL is the most noob-friendly experience. It involves a property you already understand, and guns make it more engaging off the bat.

Vagante?

Yeah, DoomRL is a good option too.

thats actually a good point.

maby a new term like gauntlet?

or gauntlet run?

seems fitting at least.

are the tile based graphics really that important?

like i get the rest, but the graphics thing just seems like it trying to be kinda hipster.

Wouldn't that be kinda shit?

Like having to take turns after every single step.

>It's an incredibly specific niche of games
That's probably the reason I get so annoyed by the watering down of the phrase.
It's an incredibly specific form of dungeon crawling RPG that really appeals to me. When the traditional term is watered down, it makes it more difficult to find discussion or news about this very specific form of RPG that I'm interested in, despite the fact the term used to make it quite simple.

>are the tile based graphics really that important?
No, what's important is tile based movement. A rougelike wouldn't really make much sense without tiles. Make them squares, make them hexes, make them triangles if you really want, but you've gotta have them.

>make them hexes
I'd like to play a hex-based roguelike.

Have you played DivOS in coop? That game is fucking fantastic.

A rogue with online with the ability for players to cooperate like in DivOS would be absolutely god like.

There are a few, they're not very good. Having to face more than 3 enemies in a turn is awkward, and there's basically no way to get trapped.

>hexes
I honestly dont get why the fuck rogues dont already do this, tiles is outdated as fuck and limits gameplay a shitton.

Honestly the whole genre is infested with nostalgic developers which is why its so stagnated. They would rather spend time bitching about what is and isnt rogue than making a game thats fun and new.

What is DivOS? I googled it and nothing came up

ok, that makes sense, although now im wondering how a non tile, but measured distance system would be described, like how most tabletops like macross do it.

>are the tile based graphics really that important?

I didn't make the rules. If it's not tile-based, it's not a roguelike. I think it's more about the bird's-eye-view perspective and 4-axis movement than the graphical fidelity. ADoM has a relatively pretty tileset and a false isometric perspective, for example, but it's still a tileset nonetheless.

Yeah but that game you spend 90% of it outside combat and the game is a lot more about strategy.

Imagine playing it where every single step you took, inside and outside combat you had to do in turns.

Divinity: Original Sin.

Hexes are still tiles. Just differently shaped.
Your complaint is about square tiles.

I take it you dont really browse RogueBasin, there's some crazy shit in there

Divinity Original Sin user how can you not know that

Would Ivan be considered a roguelike? It has based graphics but not text.

IVAN is more of a roguelike than half the shit in this thread

*tilebased graphics

>DCSS
>true roguelikes
If anything DCSS is the true ROGUELITE, since it's a watered down shitty casual roguelike.
Games like Isaac are just games from completely different genres falsely labeled as roguelikes.

>Imagine playing it where every single step you took, inside and outside combat you had to do in turns.
Which would be fine if the game was succinct and quick, you would move and your friends would move. As long as you dont have anything stopping from players instantly performing your move then you could just keep moving as if there was no turns at all.

Yep, it is.

i think because are 6 sided and thus creates a vertical and horizontal traveling discrepancy with turns and distance

i think the mixup comes from calling it graphics instead of mapping or structure, makes it sound like it can only be retro instead of pointing out the gameplay arrangement.

It would be incredibly choppy though.

>move tile, wait a second, move tile, wait a second

Moving just 60 tiles would take a minute. And 60 tiles is nothing.

Keep /rlg/ memes in /rlg/, DCSS is great and you know it.

This isnt a problem. Period. There are plenty of ways to get around it

>Make maps smaller
>Make it so you can move as a 'party' rather than individual units to cover distances
>Make it so outside of combat you can both freely move until combat starts
>Make it so you can 'follow' a leader who moves on behalf of you

Co-Op Roguelike would be better as a 3D game than 2D.

Shiren the Wanderer is both roguelike and roguelite

>Click on a door 4 tiles away
>Friend clicks on a switch 2 tiles away
>Both start moving until friend runs out of actions
Easy fix. Just make it so each turn progresses as long as someone has something queued. Means everyone is playing at the same time with no turns, although the game still acts like turns exist.

>Co-Op Roguelike would be better as a 3D game
you mean dark souls

Both would work

okay reddit

Dark Souls isnt a roguelike, a closer match wold actually be something like Space Hulk, or Bloodbornes Chalice Dungeons

>Games like Isaac are just games from completely different genres falsely labeled as roguelikes.

Aside from "Roguelite" (which is effectively interchangeable to most people who will hear either term) I can't think of a way to sum up "random dungeon crawler with permadeath" in a single word that most people will understand.

it could do a secondary process that runs everything not nearby in tandem with your character. updating in real time as you move and pausing when nothing is happening.

as for multiple people, maby sync them up? or have it where everyone selects a location or path that is followed via sped up turns that kind of overlap until something interrupts

I was joking

Is roguelite an elitist term to shit on popular games for not being "muh hardcore obscure old game" or is it a legitimate term?

To add onto this, while Dark Souls is "hardcore", the persistent level design and enemy placement is key, as a big part of gitting gud is memorizing the levels. So please, no one try to make a Souls-like roguelike

>Make maps smaller
That's no fun.
>Make it so you can move as a 'party' rather than individual units to cover distances
But then you are just playing a glorified singleplayer rougelike.
>Make it so outside of combat you can both freely move until combat starts
That doesn't really work all that well if it's an actual rougelike since the engine game logic is tired to the turns.
>Make it so you can 'follow' a leader who moves on behalf of you
Again, what would be the point? I mean, it's not combat is anything like Divinity, you press a arrow key and bumb into someone. That's about it.

I guess.

I just think it would be a much more enjoyable experience in real time. We have had that for years and it's great.

>no one is ever going to bother because rogues dont sell
Maybe its time I learn how to make games just so I can be the first to make a coop rogue that works, surely this is one of the easiest genres to make

Souls gameplay can work with random maps, just look at the Chalice Dungeons

literally the only thing wrong with them is how they're designed, its just a bunch of samey peices slapped together so after a while there's no real variety, you get too used to it.

It is fun
Its not single player
It works fine in other rogues that do a similar system
The point is that 1. It works and 2. Playing with friends is fun

I think the problem here is you have no friends.

>surely this is one of the easiest genres to make

Nope. If anything making a good roguelike will actually test your skills as a game designer.

>actually test your skills as a game designer.
Its literally any other game minus the hardest and most time consuming which is graphics, animations, ect

It's a mix of both. It's at once actually helpful, since rogueLIKE is an extremely specific genre of game, where a rogueLITE only needs permadeath and randomness. On the other hand it's also used by turbo-autists to talk down to other people who are playing actual roguelikes that aren't as complex or hardcore as their favorite.

It's also an almost useless distinction to make when it comes to marketing, since when most people see either one they think of Spelunky or Isaac.

>If anything making a good roguelike will actually test your skills as a game designer.
Yeah no, its literally just basic coding and math.

I would take that any day over having to animate a boss or map AI pathing through 3D spaces.

But replace that with balancing out your items, leveling, enemies, level generation, arena effects, etc. And making sure your game design is a cohesive whole rather than random shit slapped together.

The reason why graphics and animation are de-emphasized in roguelikes is because the sheer amount of content makes up for it.

No I have. I just think I'd rather play a game where the multiplayer works in it's favor rather than trying it's best to scramble a barely functioning system together.

>It is fun
Exploration is kinda all you have really. Take that away and it's just the barebones combat.
>Its not single player
Yeah, you'd just be doing what? Accessing your inventory and equip a new dagger every once in a while while the host does all the movement actions?
>It works fine in other rogues that do a similar system
Then give my some examples. Would be interesting too see how it plays.
>The point is that 1. It works and 2. Playing with friends is fun
It really doesn't. You don't have a lot of control in most rougelikes that would mix well with multiplayer I don't think.

>Ask person for a roguelike recommendation.
>Asks some general questions about what i like
>They recommend me a few
>leans over and whispers that OP is a faggot

Hoplite, good game.
also Golden Krone hotel.

Yeah look everything you listed is the exact same in other games as well.

Rogues are one of the most simplistic games to make.

Im not going to get into an argument over something as trivial as this, you dont like playing with others, fine. But all those solutions work well and other posted their methods that would also make rogues that work online.

Also you need to learn how to read because you misunderstood multiple features