So, if he wasn't actually Big Boss, why did he have Big Boss' memories?

So, if he wasn't actually Big Boss, why did he have Big Boss' memories?

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psychologytoday.com/blog/media-spotlight/201211/implanting-false-memories
youtube.com/watch?v=yMha13rHS9g
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In the Metal Gear world, whispering in a person's ear while they're asleep allows them to recreate a 1:1 version of it and make it a memory

Someone didn't pay any attention

Did you play the game

>muh hypnotherapy

That doesn't at all explain why he had his memories.

Yeah actually it does you retard

sleeping =/= coma

Yes it does, it's called suspension of disbelief. You won't complain about magic in a fantasy novel, would you?

what are memories really

>Zero just makes another Big Boss.
>Kicks all the same ass with little to no more training.
>Everyone later in the series shits themselves over having BB's DNA when they could just perform surgery on some dude and make him kick all the same ass.

Can't you guys learn to use the spoiler tag? Feel free to discuss it, but someone of us haven't beaten the game yet

psychologytoday.com/blog/media-spotlight/201211/implanting-false-memories

Here's an even better question, why did they even make a decoy to begin with?

If there are possibly thousands of elite soldiers just as good, if not better, than Big Boss, why is he so important, especially when he's just a soldier not a high ranking NCO?

Can't remember the details of the most important things you've done in your life and you can't understand foreign languages you're sure you already know? That's probably due to the giant chunk of metal in your head, Boss.

Shit has been out for over 1 year and a half.

Big boss was the best there ever was.

Remember in MGS4 when you killed both Liquid and Ocelot but Liquid was dead the whole time?

Same thing I'd imagine.

Meant for

He doesn't actually have memories of BB, he has memories of his impression of BB while he was a medic. He led himself to believe he was there as BB, but we have no clear understanding whether he remembers MGS3/PW the same way we do through playing these games or not.

Kojima took a theoretical concept and went

>WHAT IF IT WAS 100% REAL AND APPLICABLE IN THIS ONE SCENARIO WHERE I WANT TO DO SOMETHING STUPID

Seriously went out of control after 3, depression is like freebase designer drugs for the Japanese.

>doesn't know how hypnotherapy works
>calls ME the retard

You're just as dumb as Kojima, figures.

If people were willing to call it magic and not pretend like Kojima knew what he was writing, then yes, I wouldn't complain.

Doesn't explain how he knew things and thought things that only Big Boss would've known/realized.

Whole plot just comes across to me like a lazy attempt at tricking the player with no hints along the way that he wasn't big boss, just like in Heavy Rain with the killer, where you had the detective actively thinking to himself about how to catch the killer.

Makes no sense. Lazy writing.

>If there are possibly thousands of elite soldiers just as good, if not better, than Big Boss
There are not, canonically. I do not understand why BB is not S+++ in every rank

>i don't like that answer so I'll just dismiss it

Come on man

Propaganda.
Naked Snake pretty much stumbled his way through his first missions, and killing the Boss was an inevitability planned by people over his head.

except venom snake's brain was fucked up by the shrapnel. you couldn't perform such mindwipe if your patient wasn't in a coma with minimal brain activity

>no hints along the way


Ok. You didn't play the game.

But in MGS4, it was revealed that Ocelot was pretending the whole time....EVEN THOUGH, he had previously been "controlled" by Liquid, and even spoke in Liquid's voice....Why do people over look these glaringly obvious plot holes? These aren't small trivialities, these are Kojima being bad at consistency.

It's a video game.

>If people were willing to call it magic and not pretend like Kojima knew what he was writing, then yes, I wouldn't complain.
You're complaining about insignificant portion of the game that is already full of scientific and borderline supernatural mumbo jumbo. Interestingly enough, not every fiction work has to have a reference list underlying every axiom, scientific theory and naturally occurring mineral to be good.

MGS is not good, but not for the reason of memory implantation.

Actually it's pretty obvious you aren't playing Big Boss from the start, and he even had the team design an entire mirrored interior of Pequod's heli that has your avatar sitting next to yours while you're in the ACC, just for the mirror to show his face in the dark.

The worst part of the story is that there isn't a twist, but rather a long slog of inconsequential bullshit that allows you to finally reach the actual plot. Then the game ends as Big Boss rides off to do all of the shit we were promised we'd get to do

What, specifically, are you referring to by memories? Besides knowing Kaz, paz, and ocelot, what did he know that only Big Boss would know?

ocelot says "these are all missions only you can handle, boss"

He IS big boss though, actually

>how he knew things and thought things that only Big Boss would've known/realized
When was this ever implied? Usually when stuff from old games come up he'd just grumble while Ocelot gave exposition. Most of the stuff he did know were either common knowledge or information that was available on cassette tapes in previous games. It wouldn't be a surprise if he spent most of his "coma" listening to a walkman on repeat.

>implanting false memories

Did you even read what you just posted?

They used Hillary Clinton as a primary example, when everyone knows she out-right lied about the "sniper incident", she didn't have a "false memory"

>To be fair, Dr. Loftus also pointed out that Hillary Clinton was guilty of a similar memory malfunction when, during the 2008 presidential campaign, she described a visit to Bosnia during the civil war when she faced enemy snipers. Based on the recollections of the others who went with her to Bosnia (including her daughter, Chelsea), none of her vivid recollections of ducking gunfire actually happened. Confronted with this evidence, Senator Clinton denied lying about the incident. “I made a mistake. I had a different memory. That proves I’m human which for some people is a revelation.”

>disregards the fact that brain activity during a coma wouldn't of allowed him to register any "listening" what-so-ever

The whole game is a coma dream. None of it ever happened.

it would have actually been a more interesting game if venom had more weaknesses

like hallucinating long dead villains, seeing flying pigs in afghanistan, temporary loss of peripheral vision, hearing spooky things or losing hearing altogether

>you can't tag along with a team of your soldiers to provide medical relief to some third-world war zone
Fuck story missions, I want to go pick flowers with my dispatch teams!

But then why did they say Ocelot say about Venom Snake "He was our best man, almost as good as you, he will be fine, and I'll be there to support him"

If some medic was "almost as good" as the actual Big Boss, don't you think he would've been "almost as important"? How come he's just some nobody that's only ever brought up in this game, while there's a plethora of lesser characters that are featured throughout the series?

the entire coma dream was a VR simulation

Wrong. Listen to the Doublethink tape. "He's experienced all your missions on record, and shares all your knowledge and experience."

His memories of being the medic is almost completely wiped out until he has that mirror scene.

>some medic
he was the best soldier on the old mother base but he needed to be expendable for the purposes of V's plot

>not every fiction work has to have a reference list underlying every axiom, scientific theory and naturally occurring mineral to be good

And yet Kojima feels the need to pretend he has a deep enough understanding and comprehension of all of those to try and make some sort of a hard-science-fiction war thriller...If you don't actually know the implications what you're writing when trying to include hard sciences, you really shouldn't, it just makes you look dumb, or pretentious, sometimes both.

the VR simulations were actually the real world

>EVEN THOUGH, he had previously been "controlled" by Liquid, and even spoke in Liquid's voice

Some theories are that because of Ocelots dad being the Sorrow, he inherited some ESP and he unconsciously called forth Liquid's spirit. So the possession would be have been a real concern for Ocelot which could go on to explain why he swapped the arm for a cyber one at some point.

Yes MGS has plot holes and has some unexplained shit but its part of the charm at this point.

If he was the best soldier, why was he a medic?

Being a medic is a specialist military trade.

they decided he was a medic so he could be inserted on the helicopter

But if he was the best soldier, why would he have to be a medic to have a reason to be inserted into the helicopter? Surely he could've just as easily of been Big Boss' right-hand man?

Why go through the really unnecessary plot-hole of making him a medic?

it's not hard science

it's just hit random on wikipedia and see what sort of neat bit of information you can shoehorn into your setting

well, snake was rescuing 2 beat up kids so they needed at least one medic on board. if he was the pilot or some gunner he wouldn't be able to shield snake from the explosion

maybe "medic" is just a title he took for that particular mission

>those long conversations in MGS3 on the radio with that chick who's obsessed with Japan

God that shit was fucking unbearable.

Sorry, I've just been spoiled from reading so much Tom Clancy stuff.

I guess I just expect more out of a writer.

chinese proverbs, huh?

Hypnosis.
It's supposed to represent the fact that we played MGS3 and Peace Walker.

i think the only reason why the medic guy was made into something special was so that the hypnotherapy/transformation would be more believable

>Why go through the really unnecessary plot-hole of making him a medic?
What about it?
Snake is going alone, to rescue some kids from a military base.
They might be hurt, or Snake himself might end up hurt, so he carries a medic with him.
Don't see what's so wrong with him being a medic.

Aren't medics fully trained soldiers with medical training? IE: Soldiers+.

>Don't see what's so wrong with him being a medic.

If your best soldier is a medic, your other soldiers must be really fucking bad.

Medic isn't just some "title" that you apply to random people, Combat Medical Technicians get long amounts of in-depth training, with their own ranks to move up in within their field.

medics' combat talents would be wasted if he had to spend all his time dragging and patching people up

Or maybe he was just really good.
I mean, he ended up becoming Big Boss.

>yfw we'll never have an mgs game where big boss wakes up in a dystopian future where his brain was resurrected and put into a cyborg shell

>medics' combat talents

Battlefield 2 isn't real life. Combat Medics are considered non-combatants you fuck-stick.

Venom being the medic honestly feels like an asspull that Kojima thought up at the last minute because Konami was already pushing him with the deadline.

Unless of course, its like this guy said that Venom simply has the rare potential of being just good. I mean Big Boss himself was just a man.

nah the whole fucking game concept was built around being someone's phantom etc.

He didn't, Kaz asks him about Dr Clark (Para Medic) and Venom says he can't recall that name and never heard of him (He doesn't even know shes a Woman)

>Combat Medics are considered non-combatants you fuck-stick.
They still have weapon and uniform.

do you remember where this discussion is held?

Not really.
The writer of MGSV's novelization said originally Venom was Big Boss, that the main enemy was just America, and that the game would be told from the perspective of Huey, who is american, and thus we would see Diamond Dogs as the bad guys.
Although I think that was just the initial concept, he also said things like the Vocal Cord parasites were a thing since the beginning, and there's concept arts like pic related that how Venom wasn't BB.

Because Dr. Clark is not her real name.

Their primary role is to take medical responsibility within the field, and their "side-arm" is meant for personal defense of them, and their patient. They don't take an active role.

In one of the tapes :S

it's a shitty plot-hole-filler, but it does man

they must have been playing around with the idea of 2 big bosses from the very beginning because of MG1 and 2

>Vocal Cord parasites

You mean the "I hated learning Engrish in schoor, so I'm going to make a game focusing on attacking Engrish" plot device?

No, the entire franchise does, and the entire franchise is basically shitting on America's military industrial complex and it's influence on the world.

idiot. it's a reference to 1984

He didn't have 'all' his memories. Just the ones they implanted. MGS3 and Peace Walker was your coma dream while Ocelot was hypnotizing you.

How does Venom have the same hair color as Big Boss? Were they just lucky to find someone with the same shade? What if the hair wasn't of the same type and waved, for example?

you don't actually even have all your own memories

really makes you think

Nanomachines, son

>being this mentally handicapped

idiot

Better question what was the point of the game if afterwards nigger snake gets fucked up in metal gear and big boss gets fucked up in metal gear 2.

This whole convoluted series of events only to still get rekt by your fucking clone in an 8bit game

More importantly, who was best girl?

And should I storytime?

>No, the entire franchise does, and the entire franchise is basically shitting on America's military industrial complex and it's influence on the world

Kojima likes to change what the games target each game. In MGS1, there was a gigantic spiel about nuclear waste.

MGS2 was about zeitgeist.

MGS3 was about ripping off James Bond.

MGS4 was a metaphor about getting older.

It's all really pretty simple and straight forward, but it's hid behind such a messy, convoluted story, people give it more credit than it really deserves.

This is a MSF was a private military organization operating outside any country's jurisdiction. Why would they follow the military standards of the nations they're trying to disassociate themselves from?

I have no doubt in that. But if he carry a firearm in a war zone, he is a combatant.

Care to give an in-depth explanation as to what the fuck your traded ass is referring to, specifically? Please tell me you're not so dumb you think it's a reference to Ingsoc.

>military standards of the nations they're trying to dissociate themselves from

>this is the average intelligence of the typical MGS fanboy

They aren't following the military standards of a Nation, it's a part of the Geneva convention.

If you knowingly/specifically target a medic you can be tried for a war crime.

Care to give an in-depth explanation as to what the fuck your tarded ass is referring to, specifically? Please tell me you're not so dumb you think it's a reference to Ingsoc.

Fuck off with that cancerous faggotry right fucking now.

>So, if he wasn't actually Big Boss, why did he have Big Boss' memories?

let me explain:

>paz explodes outside of the helicopter, everyone in the helicopter save for big boss and kaz are fucked up by the explosion
>big boss is still conscious thanks to the medic
>arrive at hospital staffed with zero's doctors
>big boss doesn't trust Kaz anymore, so he decided to leave MSF and created the next plan with zero ahead of time
>zero's doctors fake a coma with big boss to trick Kaz
>zero's doctors then put kaz into a medically induced coma (kaz talks about this in the truth tapes)
>big boss is transported by morpho to an undisclosed location
>big boss and zero hatch a plan to turn the medic into big boss, moving him to a secret hospital
>the second man is in a real coma with brain damage, he is medically and functionally "dead", they take him to the same hospital as the medic, most likely out of some form of guilt or honour.
>ocelot spends next 9 years reprogramming the medic into big boss
>ocelot then hypnotizes himself to think that the fake medic big boss is the real big boss
>the second man, considered dead, is in the bed beside the medic during these 9 years. This causes him to inadvertently receive every reprogramming that the medic received, including the "you are not the medic" pieces.
>essentially he was accidentally reprogrammed to think he is the medic, reprogrammed to think he was big boss
>baby mantis, somehow, attunes to the second man's rage, waking both of them up from their psychoses
>nobody expected this, he was left for dead, so they make us of the situation and tell him he is big boss.

this is why ocelot openly knows and discusses how venom snake isn't the real big boss, despite having hypnotized himself to think the fake boss is the real boss. there's two fake big bosses.

That's an awful lot of implying.

Why does Kojima make his fans do all his writing?

>Better question what was the point of the game if afterwards nigger snake gets fucked up in metal gear and big boss gets fucked up in metal gear 2.

the secret second ending that is either hidden behind some cryptic chapter 3 scenario, or was cut in some way because konami went full retard. people from konami have stated that no cutscene from the trailers were cut from the final game.

but yeah medic snake dies in metal gear 1

VENOM snake dies in metal gear 2, after you destroy metal gear Diamond

big boss was never in any risk of death, the corpse everyone was fawning over in the metal gear games was venom's. big boss in MGS4 was simply a lying sack of shit with a convoluted explanation that kojima wanted to retcon.

The game is fucking retarded and uses literal magic at this point.

what

youtube.com/watch?v=yMha13rHS9g

really makes you think

You're a retard. There is never a particular moment where he is questioned about past events only Big Boss would know about.

He would know enough about Big Boss from his days as Medic, and anything else necessary was implanted during the hypnosis.

Granted, I never completed the game since I lost my save, but I assumed it was the power of suggestion
>Wake up from coma
>Where am I? Who are you? Who am I?
>Well, you're Big Boss. Remember when you did X, Y, and Z?
>Oh yeah, that's right.....
>Doesn't actually remember, but acknowledges he did since he doesn't know any better

It's half the reason why he doesn't react to some of Ocelot's comments.