Why are turn-based RPGs so easy, holy shit

Why are turn-based RPGs so easy, holy shit

Not as easy as online games

I wouldn't say that. If you crank up the difficulty to max in certain games, it gets pretty frigging difficult without grinding for hours on mobs that can two shot you, or buying a lot of healing items.

Shin Megami Tensei IV comes to mind.

Because you have an infinite amount of time to choose your moves, and there are usually enough abilities/jobs/whatever that everything in the game can be countered.

RPGs suffer from leveling mechanics. Just like most MMOs, most RPGs become more about grinding than about skill. If RPGs take out the leveling mechanics for more reasonable progression (such as having a job system by itself, with no levels), then things get better. But there's still the first two problems I mentioned: infinite time to act, and too many abilities to balance against.

Most of the time, in order to make an RPG difficult, developers have to resort to cheating. The new Pokemon games, of all things, have a thing called Battle Tree at the end which is legitimately difficult (as much so as it can be, anyway). It's difficult because the computer counter-picks against your team, lands high-rolls and crits when it needs them, and in general manipulates RNG to win. It necessitates players to train up OU meta pokemon to have any success.

As far as more skill-based RPGs, three games come to mind: Undertale, Final Fantasy X-2, and Super Mario RPG.
- FFX2 the battle moves in semi-real time, so you can't dawdle with your moves. Combined with hard-hitting and diverse bosses, you have to put some significant planning into some of the fights.
- Super Mario RPG: timed hits. Game is still piss easy, but that's because the enemies don't hit hard enough. This game regularly shows up at AGDQ because it takes significant practice to do things like 100 super jumps in a row.
- Undertale: merged bullet-hell shooter mechanics with RPGs. Somehow, it works. Can't beat the game without a little practice. Some of my non-gamer friends really struggled with this one. Lifetime gamers take it for granted how much better we are at playing games.

The way to make RPGs more difficult is by adding additional mechanics to them.

Because they're shallow

The most complex thing to come out of one is "fire is strong against ice types"

Mario & Luigi can become hard at times since you take a lot of damage when you get hit, but you can completely dodge attacks.

Stop playing japanese ones and try wizardry or JA2. Battle Brothers if you want something modern.

Not saying it's hard but give Darkest Dungeon a try.

You get more than a "kek is strong against lel"

You mention undertale as an example of a good skill-based RPG, but you praise it for the part that isn't an RPG. On top of that, it's not even a good bullet hell. It's pretty piss-poor compared to actual danmaku games.

Also the Battle Tree doesn't cheat. It picks teams that counter yours, but it doesn't manipulate random rolls. That's just you ignoring all the times the rolls go in your favour until it eventually goes wrong. Because it's random. That's how random works.

You mention "infinite time to choose your moves" as a an argument why turn-based is easy. Turn-based RPGs aren't easy. OP is full of shit and you're defending his trolling bullshit. "Infinite time" is a silly point, because you sure as hell aren't going over every chain of possibilities at every move. Even if you do, it's still a puzzle, and puzzles aren't necessarily easy.

You don't know shit.

IIRC there's actual proof of shady shit going on in the Maison, but nothing about the Tree, yet. Doesn't matter, though, because neither have my Pike Queen in them.

>tfw bad at turn-based RPGs

Generally prefer action RPGs, or really anything that lets me control my character directly and minimize the impact of RNG.

If you actually have trouble with any of the "puzzles" presented by traditional turn-based RPGs with leveling mechanics and classes, then you're one dumb motherfucker. Even the best shit the genre has to offer, like FF tactics or Chrono Trigger or Bravely Default, pretty much boil down to rock-paper-scissors. You win by bringing the right team, plain and simple. It's just a question of grinding the right team.

Compared to games like Dark Souls or Catherine, or even the higher difficulties of games like Kingdom Hearts 2, there isn't much difficulty to most turn-based RPGs. Execution is automatic, so it's just a question of determining the correct execution.

>super mario rpg
>difficult
Are you literally 6 years old? All attacks are still easy as shit to dodge. The only difficult timed stuff is doing insane combos with objects, the actual game is piss easy not because of shit damage but because the attacks themselves are braindead easy both to execute and dodge/repel.

You didn't even read the post, did you? I said the game is piss easy. But it's because of the power curve, not the mechanics. Speedrun the game and you'll see how things could have been.

You said that the game is easy because
> the enemies don't hit hard enough
which isn't true. Even if the enemies did do actual good damage, the game would be still easy as fuck, because they are still child play to dodge.

Then shrink the dodge timings by a few frames. Seriously dude, have you ever heard the phrase "can't see the forest for the trees?" You picked one small part of my post to attack and missed the entire fucking point: that traditional turn-based RPGs will never be difficult without additional mechanics.

Play Darkest Dungeon.

Epic Battle Fantasy 4, Epic Difficulty. Everything hits hard even when you have gear to resist the attacks elements, status effects are actually seriously debilitating, trying to grind even one more level than you're supposed to have at any given point would take way too long to be worth it, even the regular enemies can be pretty tough, bosses love to summon some of the more powerful/annoying enemies during the fight in addition to being tough on their own, and all this is without even taking into account the extra difficult bonus area in the non-free version.

Lost Odyssey is the hardest turn-based JRPG I have ever played.

because you are playing retarded dating sim shit like SMT and Persona. play a real game and it will be difficult.

Because you play kiddy shit with garbage game design.

play pic related or Wizardry 4

>Do boss fight
>If you lose, you know exactly what to do the next go-around
>Win

came here to post this
the whole series really

Wrong. Trails games on the highest difficulty are some of the most tediously difficult games I've ever played.

>Compared to games like Dark Souls or Catherine, or even the higher difficulties of games like Kingdom Hearts 2

It's funny tyo hear idiots talk. Dark souls is easy. Always has been. Skilled playeds can beat the game on speed runs in a couple hours. Catherine has cheat codes to let you easy mode it. Don't even try to say "hurr durr play it on hard" when you don't any of the other listed games. KH2? difficult? you are one dumb idiot. It's a fucking typical JRPG that rewards level grinding and only gets eaiser as you go on.

The hardest part of KH2 is simply pressing the quicktime event button at the the right time.

There's a world of games with nhigh difficulty out there if you stray away from le mainstream land.

>trails on normal
>faceroll everything including the final boss
>trails on hard
>faceroll everything including the final boss
>trails on nightmare
>first encounter of the game fucks your shit up

wew lad

Dragon quest 2 was pretty hard.

I wonder how many of those people here who claim that turn based rpgs are easy can take on 10 FS Saruin.
Trails games aren't difficult, they're simply tedious, higher difficulties only make enemy stat sponges, that's the cheapest form of difficulty there is.

>Compared to Souls
>While talking about execution based difficulty

>10 FS Saruin
or the Seven Heroes
or The Egg
either way, my nigger

>Trails games aren't difficult
this, however, isn't so true
the Cold Steels are offensively easy, sure, and it'll probably only get worse in the future
But pic related and Arianrhod? FC Loewe?
For the most part Falcom is one dev I'll always trust with difficulty, because they like to actually add/change mechanics on Nightmare sometimes- like enemies having more/more frequent S-Crafts, etc.

I'd put Anima Mundi and the Azure Demiurge in the same category with 10 FS Saruin & pals, if anything

if turn based rpgs were harder even less people would play them

Turn base games only are hard when they include bullshit 1HKO crap

You know what I'm talking about Mudo and Hama

Taking out leveling from RPGs is bad.

The new Paper Mario are proof

So here's a thought. Why do games HAVE to be hard?

Omelette du Fromage

THAT'S ALL YOU CAN SAY

Not much you can do mechanic wise other than inflate numbers or give you less/more turns.

Turn based RPGS were originally made because of hardware limitations. CPUs couldn't process multiple real time AI on the same screen as the action took place. It's also why most games during that time were random encounter based and loaded an entirely different screen for the gameplay itself.

The early pioneer of real time action RPGs like Star Ocean and Tales of Phantasia on SNES really pushed the limit of the console without using special chips like Nintendo used for Mario RPG and other games. It's actually fascinating to take a moment to analyse how the developers managed to get those games to work at all. I mean Phantasia had voice acting and a 3D like world map with no advanced FX chips being used.

look up radia senki for the NES user

The developers have a few choices

1)Make the game "hard" because it requires grinding, so it ends up being a boring game instead of a fun game, nobody will play it

2)Make the game "hard" because of RNG bullshit, nobody will enjoy playing a game like this

3)Make the game hard and take away the possibility of grinding and the RNG, this means there are only very few ways of beating the game and it requires a lot of strategy and exploration. This makes the game only fun dor hardcore gamers, most people will think it sucks or its "unfair", the game is more likely to be unsuccessful but still more fun than the other two

4)Make the game easy so every strategy is good enough, your choices don't matter all that much and you're always the winner, this game is successful among casuals and might get a decent amount of cash.

So that's why so many turn-based RPGs are easy

It's simple really. Gameplay is the one thing that sets Video Games apart from any other form of media. As such, games with the most unique and takes the highest level of thought/reflexes should be considered the best. This is actually the main reason video games are not and should never be considered art. Sure you can claim the music, story, and graphics (the shit that really is not important when it comes to video games) are art, but the gameplay, the most important thing, is what makes video game a video game.

This is the main reason I really do not like turn based games, because its basically a DVD menu, there's no real skill aside from hitting a weakness or using buffs/debuffs in these games. And if you look at what fans of these games like, its never the game play, its always irrelevant shit like story, music, or the characters.

>taking out big RPG element from RPG
Are you okay, user?

>Also the Battle Tree doesn't cheat.
Explain fucking 5 paralyzes in a row I had today. What's the chance for that? 0,1%?
There is a point when 'bad luck' doesn't justify shit happening on the screen. Infamous Quick Claw Walrein wiping your whole team with Sheer Cold is a great example.
Also, it was confirmed Maison cheats IIRC. I seriously doubt Battle Tree wouldn't cheat if Maison did.

Can you be more specific why these games are good? I am genuinely thinking about playing them. It's so hard to think about turn based games made right

But video games are also an interactive media unlike other medias. It's not just gameplay that makes them unique. Some people want to be challenged while others want to be immersed. Is that so hard to understand?

>immersed
you can do that with any other media, just use your imagination.

I can't explore a fantasy world in movies or art, but I can do that in video games. Is your issue that they're called "games" rather than "interactive virtual worlds" or some shit?

>I can't explore a fantasy world in movies or art

Yes you can, its called using your own goddamn imagination, or is your attention span so low you need someone to hold your hand and show you what it looks like?

>Is your issue that they're called "games" rather than "interactive virtual worlds" or some shit?

I would say so. DVD menus are not video games but can do the same thing those "games" can do.

Play Wizardry series, especially 4, SaGa games and The Last Remnant, those are hard by default.

In other hand, since FF1 on the NES and probably even before it, turn-based RPGs have a lot gameplay options but because they focus so much on the plot, devs make them easy to play at casual level, that means they are easy by default. Thanks to gameplay options, players try to beat the games under special conditions doing self-imposed challenges and that's when the games become harder and fun.

Grinding and RNG are both bad and can be removed from RPGs without any loss in quality

an example for my first part of my post. You know how many fucking volumes of lore are in LOTR? Thats a really good way to explore a fantasy world and isn't a "game"

>or the Seven Heroes
Can be kind of cheesed with a certain spell, if you fight without it they're a legit nightmare though.
>or The Egg
If you're autistic enough as to grind for quite literally 30+ hours or so you can kinda cheese the Egg too, granted that you have the right loadout though, you'll still get fucked at the speed of light if you don't

10FS Saruin can't be cheesed though, 10FS Saruin doesn't care about your stats, he only wants your pain, despair and suffering, unless you learn how to deal with him there's no way you can trick him, and even if you do learn how to deal with him but don't have the right loadout or roles you'll still lose, and on top of that if he decides to be a dick and spam too many spells or Deus Ex Machina you'll still lose.

Why?
Because fuck you, he's the evil god, that's why.
They're actual RPGs with amazing battle and general game design, non linearity, tons of truly unique systems for each game and focus on gameplay and mechanics first of all, not to mention that they all pose quite a decent challenge and impose you to learn how to play the game, not to mention anti grind measures which can truly fuck you in the ass in some games, as in force you to completely restart the game because you've been playing like a mindless idiot.

They're more or less the Dwarf Fortress of JRPGs so to speak, originality, unique mechanics, genuine challenges, focus on gameplay and amazing music too, all while retaining the core turn based gameplay, you can't go wrong with the SaGa series if you want all of the above.

Also, there's a general thread on /vr/ for all your questions, so check that out.

The problem is that most games are now very easy because they appeal to the escapism. By giving the player a lot of power in the game, they can stomp everything with ease, making them think they're awesome and powerful to compensate how they lack those things in reality. That's why they hate difficult games: they are challenged, and will often lose. And not everyone deals with losing, and many prefer to win, as cheap as the victory is.

So, while those games will always exist, there are far too many of those right now. We need difficult games back to bring back some balance to the table.

can't wait for the SMT drones to come in here and act like that series is difficult

It's not hard just end bonus bosses require grind

SanctuaryRPG

To me, this is what sets a "gamer" apart from a Video Game Player.

Same reason your mom is so easy, gotta appeal to everyone.

most of the fags in this thread talking shit about turn based wouldn't last 5 minutes in wizardry 4

>Yes you can, its called using your own goddamn imagination, or is your attention span so low you need someone to hold your hand and show you what it looks like?
That's retarded. I'm not interacting with the World and characters whatsoever by just watching it. Now I'm not saying they are inferior by any stretch, I'm just saying they're different. I want to explore the World the creators set out in front of me and admire the level of detail and creativity put into it. If you can't see the appeal of that then I don't know what to tell you. Also going by your logic every form of media is pointless because you can just "use your imagination" instead.
>I would say so. DVD menus are not video games but can do the same thing those "games" can do.
Seems really pointless to get upset over semantics. They are considered games because they are a virtual media about interacting with the world and overcoming various obstacles.

99% of turn based RPGs have the depth of rock paper scissors.
Buff your shit then pick the attack the enemy is weak to.
Don't worry if can't work out which attack might extinguish a fire enemy, you have all the time in the world to think it over.

The problem is that the games are designed to have lots of encounters before the player reaches their destination or fights a boss or whatever. Because there will be a lot of fights, the enemies have to be weak.

In action games, fighting weaker enemies can be fun anyway if the combat feels good, or the enemies can be still be dangerous while the player is expected to just not get hit.

In turn-based games, however, there's no fun at all in spamming attack on weaker enemies, because there's no mechanical skill involved. Most games don't try to make the regular encounters hard so there's no meaningful decision making and the result is painfully boring and easy battles.

Oh yeah, FFXV and Skyrim are the pinnacle of vidya challenge.

ARPGs that aren't basically action games with some RPG mechanics aren't any more difficult, m8.

>5 minutes
You wish.
Trebor's ghost reaches you in less time than that.

>interacting with the world and overcoming various obstacles.

So its a CYOA movie then.

>Also going by your logic every form of media is pointless because you can just "use your imagination" instead.

You have to use your imagination if you want to pretend you're in the world of Blade Runner, Harry Potter, or anything else, be it a movie or a book, BECAUSE you cannot directly interact with the world. The reason why pretending you're a video game character is shitty is because every thing, even when the game has "chose" is set out. There are no variables, there are no things the devs didn't think of that can be put in the game, everything is contained into what is coded.

Media's main purpose is to inspire people and things like interactive movies are simply the lowest form for this.

I give up man. You're too damn jaded.

That's your opinion.

OP have you played the Sonny series? I think to this day is one of the best turn-based games i've ever seen (Topped only by some of the campaings in the HoMM series)

In this game there is NO heal ability (Something that every game genre should fucking ditch, because a healer with a heal ability has to be one of the most dumb things to ever be concieved), and there are many abilities that deal damage + set a debuff and the game rolls around choosing the right abilities before an encounter. Although there are abilities that heal you, they usually come with bad drawbacks and this is NOT the game where you want to be giving out turns, especially in the harder difficulties.

You can't just deal damage in this game and expect to steamroll everything, i think every turn-based RPG fan should give it a try

Infinite time isn't a problem, it just means that the difficulty needs to come from tactical decision making. Grinding is a legitimate problem though, because even when it's not necessary people do it anyway and it completely destroys the difficulty curve.

For example, pokemon could be more difficult if enemies were statistically stronger than you. Players would have to compensate by building a balanced team and actually strategising in battle.
The way it is now, you're statistically stronger, AND you have the advantage of being an actual person vs garbage A.I. Even in the worst case scenario, you can just spam revives as well.

Most games are easy