"It's one of the most execution intensive fighting games out there"

"It's one of the most execution intensive fighting games out there"

"It's one of the hardest games to get good at."

What exactly did James Chen mean by this?

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he meant that it's one of the most execution intensive fighting games out there, and that it's one of the hardest games to get good at

he's right

He means that there an entirely different game beneath a single layer the second you and another person mutually come to understand the rhythm the game plays at when you smooth out all landing and movement options.

I can do all that cool shit, not WELL, but on my own level that I have a lot of fun with, because I play Luigi

how can it be hard if you don't even have to do 720's... all you do is press the B button to do attacks?

A lot of rapid precise stick flicking. Melee is no marvel 2, but it's pretty hard

You do all the hard shit to MOVE not to do attacks.

It means that melee is all about execution and becomes brain dead once you grinded it out, unlike 4 which is more tactical.

...

Wrong. Melee having more options makes the mind games fold into more layers.
Lack of options makes a game more simple, you have to guess less in 4.

there is a lot of autismal 1 frame tricks.

platform canceling, pivoting, etc

>outdated garbage
Literally cant compete with a mod let alone real fighting games

FGC are pernavirgins.

SSBM > Street Fighter

Melee is the only fighting game with an unlimited skill ceiling. Webm related is not possible by humans. This is not true for fighting games like street fighter.

>biggest tournament barely gets 200 entrants
Dead "game"

lol

Try to moonwalk with marth consecutively it's easy I swear.

Would Nintendo even be able to make a game that could top Melee? Not 'new nintendo sucks' flaming but if they legitimately set out to do it (by keeping Sakurai away) could they?

It wouldn't be in the Smash series that's for sure. Nintendo is dead-set on making sure the game is nice and simple for newer players and I just can't see them deviating from that even without Sakurai. Not to say that's a bad thing, I love all of the Smash games, but I don't see the series ever intentionally going back to something super punishing and combo-based like Melee or 64.

I'm assuming he meant the game is hard to learn and has high execution.

>unnecessary meme movement
yeah nobody cares about that

Melee was loved by casuals though. Smash is already super approachable because of it's options and modes.

It was and I think Nintendo was on to something beautiful there. It really is the perfect mix of fun and competitive, at least the closest we've come to perfect imo. There have just been so many quality of life changes for newer players that I can't see them removing. The super easy ledge clipping for example along with bigger shields and more invincibility from rolls and air dodges, making them better options.

Melee is the way it is now because Iwata helped design it. After he stopped working on the series Sakurai took full reins to fully casualize the franchise.
tbqh I don't get this philosophy of making games more streamlined. Like, how the fuck did we (people browsing Sup Forums for example) get into gaming if games were supposedly more complex way back when? Do people getting into games today seriously enjoy not being challenged?

youtube.com/watch?v=vXgpGBbh5r8

Fucking idiot.

>Spam tech skill cuz you rape!
It was a different time back then.

He's 100% right. There is a reason the Gods are called Gods. Because they've been learning and mastering Melee for 15 years. You can't have new blood random out a God like in SFV. Like NuckleDu a new player beating out all the JP "Gods" with R. Mika. We probably won't see new player fight on equal footing against a Melee God for another 15 years or so.

Leffen went from relatively unknown to arguable top 5 in 4 years.

Yeah it's hard but it's so much easier to practice now. not 15 years hard

Just to move? Really? Sounds lame

>Sup Forums laughs at csgo, league, dota, fightans, sc2 as competitive events
>will defend smash bros to the death

absolute tip top kek you lads make my day

t. buttblasted STROT FIGHTOR player who is delusional about his game being shit and not the big kid anymore

so not only is the execution for doing attacks and moving around VERY high, yes even higher than marvel.

in other 2d fighters fucking up ur execution can get you HIT.

in melee fucking up your execution can be LITERALLY INSTANTLY suicide. no fucking around, u can just kill yourself if you fuck up

>LEL I MASH BUTTONS REALLY FAST I RAEP UUUUU xPPPP
Kill yourself, literally.

that ain't mashing you fucking casual

I'm not surprised considering the young age of the fan base and not to mention they are nintentoddlers. They can't even keep a general alive so they resort to annoying others.

pretty much 100% true

how you move in a normal fighting game
>hold left or right to walk left or right

how you move in Melee
>jump and dodge into the ground at a diagonal angle in a split second to slide along the ground. depending on the angle and your character's unique physics the momentum you gain will differ. repeat this maneuver multiple times to cover more ground as needed

why you reply to a obvious bait

>removing ledge-hogging

Literally one of the stupidest things about the new game

The entire point and win condition of Smash is to knock opponent off and keep them off. In Smash 4 since it's so easy to get on stage because lel you can share it it doesn't make it tense or mix up the gameplay at all.

>bigger shields
>less shield stun

fucking piss. shieldgrabbing all day with no shield pressure.

>Webm related is not possible by humans
yet*

movement is all over the place for every fucking game dog.
dash dance/wavedash/pivots
to attack you need to know how to shffl.
analog control of arieal movement
to react to di and techrolls you need good movement for the entire screen
wavedash out of shield.
ledgedash/i-ledgedash
chaingrabs with varying difficulty.
platform movement
waveland
shield drop
edge cancel
aerial interrupt
and some other stuff not specific to movement

Its actually the exact opposite, smash 4 has more options because things are safer and the most optimal moves and tech haven't been discovered. melee the most optimal thing in every situation has been discovered and filtered over the course of 15 years, so thats where the depth comes from.

Melee is deep cause its 15 years old and has very technical play, however this has lead to everything being pre determined. ex. only 5 viable characters

Everything you've just said was proven incorrect at this years genesis alone.

6 unique characters in top 8, one of the best sets of melee ever played because of how whacky the punishes were for each character, and the 6th best character in the game won the tournament. Sm4sh is much more like what you described before, the few combos in the game are very rinse and repeat. It might seem like it has more depth because of how slow it is, but because neutral has less options it's easier to follow. The decisions that melee players make in split second scrambles make one stock of melee much more intense than that of sm4sh. I'm not sure if what you're saying is coming from a lack of melee knowledge but you clearly don't play the game, nor do you follow it well.

Is full freedom of movement necessarily better?

playing melee feels literally amazing, but i'm afraid my hands are giving out and i won't be able to play much longer

I play both competitively.

Peach is not viable in the meta armada is just a beast, which is why he's MIOM #1 and top on every one else's list. That leaves Fox Falco Marth Shiek and Puff, which Puff just looks good cause Hbox.

That game between mango and Leffen was just janky cause mango wasnt warmed up/ nervous and they were both playing like shit. Mango missed like 15 easy falco Dairs and missed ledge dashes left and right. Its easy to see how off he was playing cause he almost got four stocked by armada on yoshis

smash 4 has only been out a little over 2 years, melee over 15. There only seem like a few combos because people haven't Labbed it out yet. That's why every so often you get a character out of the woodwork that gets a huge tier boost from new discoved tech or combos (bowser, dk, lucario) People still dont know whats true and what isn't. that combined with every thing being super safe makes the game super deep

go look at apex 2015 or how many tournaments where in top 8 6/8 of those players are fox players or how many people cp fd against spacies to chain grab them to death or how many people get wobbled and tell me the game isn't repetitive

you clearly dont play smash 4, nor do you follow it well

Not OP, but as someone who started with 4, I really don't like Melee's controls. I have to break off the control stick if I want to do anything than walk at a moderate pace. Also, why does Ness have to do 15 fucking somersaults in the air after his recovery before he's able to grab onto an edge?

that depends on what risk/reward dynamic you want. melee has crouch cancel and model based hitboxes to balance it out

>Melee is deep cause its 15 years old and has very technical play, however this has lead to everything being pre determined.
Playing optimally will result in losing to a player that's predicting that you'll play optimally. That's what mind games are. That's also why mango did so well against m2k: m2k has a very optimal playstyle, and mango is good at reading people.
>ex. only 5 viable characters
Fox Falco Peach Falcon Marth Sheik Samus Climbers Pikachu Yoshi Ganon Luigi?

The game being incredibly safe does not make it have depth. Are you retarded? Also. Mango doesn't ledge dash as falco, so that's bullshit. Reading this made me feel retarded honestly. You can't like. I mean come on dude, think about the game you're talking about. Smash 4's not gonna get much deeper, they stopped patching it and the game doesn't have a lot of room for improvement as far as optimization goes. I could see if everyone decided that bidou is cool but the games ceiling is incredibly low in comparison to melee.

Whoops forgot Jigglypuff.

1f links exist in most (actual) fighting games

Leffen was playing nervous game 1, game 2 he wasn't. Mango was never playing nervous. I don't even know how you get that. Mango has always been sloppy, it's just how his gameplay has been since he started playing. His combos were insane, and so were leffens. I think that both players were playing quite well that day. Mango played poorly against Armada because he was out of steam, if you look at the contrast between his sets with the past three and his set with leffen you can see he's mentally drained. Tafo even talked about this after Genesis, he didn't see mango winning because he was exhausted.

I assumed you didn't play the game because claiming there are only 5 viable characters is a scrubby meme, which either makes me think you really don't know what you're talking about or you're just a very elaborate troll. Which is also why I'm not going to even bother explaining why safe play doesn't make a game have more depth. That's the exact opposite in fact, if you don't understand how having a plethora of offensive and defensive options that both work in different situations adds depth to a game with an already much more in depth punish game then I don't think its even worth it to argue about it anymore.

Ganon will forever be a massive joke as long as Sheik exists. Him and Luigi aren't "viable". That's like saying fucking Deejay is viable in SF4 because a dude managed to do okay with him. Trying to pass that as viable is just pathetic and shows how much you're trying to stretch out the list.

I'm actually not sure how I even managed to make this all black.

Throw them off of the list then. Fine by me. That's still ~10 characters. Point still made.

you've clearly never heard of footsies nor a neutral. everything being safe means you have to think ahead and plan and predict more so its more of a mind game, instead of like melee where if youre not up on the most optimal tech and options you just get Adderall comboed to game in less than a minute

also i didn't say he ledge dashed as falco so you actually must be retarded

if you look back on the history of melee people thought the same thing about melee when it was only 2 some years old, now people are amazed at how deep its gotten. Which it only became that way after the worthwhile characters were narrowed down and more and more tech was found

also most of the tech in melee is straight up cause its broken

is it t rue that putting your hands in ice cold water will make your execution better? i heard gravy (falcon main) saying it on stream, idk if he was being serious

That still leaves most of the roster as still viable. Which is more balanced than street fighter five.

>most
It's still less than half of the roster that's viable (but also still a decent number) let's not stretch the truth.

>Its actually the exact opposite, smash 4 has more options because things are safer and the most optimal moves and tech haven't been discovered. melee the most optimal thing in every situation has been discovered and filtered over the course of 15 years, so thats where the depth comes from.

Melee is deep cause its 15 years old and has very technical play, however this has lead to everything being pre determined. ex. only 5 viable characters

original poster here,
only fox, falco, shiek, marth are worth the time the rest are either gimmick or carried by pros

also mango beat mew2king cause it was sad2king in losers

>that JP Deejay player that OCVed team Canada at Capcom Cup

The best

But seriously, characters were much more viable in SF4 compared to Melee. Justin Wong beat Air with Dan in grand Finals at a tournament. A Japanese Hakan player won a major tournament with the character.

Are you actually going to act like even FANG has to struggle as much in the top level as Pikachu does? The entire SFV cast if your standards are that low. Axe is the only one who does jack with Pikachu, and he still does less than Xian does with FANG. Or are you going to start acting like Athers or Pikachad are "noteworthy"?

MVC2 also has amazing shit that can't be done with stupid fleshy human hands. Anakaris and Dhalsim will become top tier once cyborgs can directly interface with the game.

You're a fucking idiot my man

>Pikachu

FANG is Pichu tier.

On what planet? FANG consistently does better than Pikachu ever has in the Melee meta (not that it's hard to accomplish that). Don't try and downplay how fucking underwhelming Pikachu is and how garbage his matchups at the top level are. The worst thing FANG has to deal with is the Cammy matchup, and even that is better than Pikachu's worst.

>mentions footsies
>then talks about how melee's punish game is more fierce

God, are all smash 4 players this blind to how retarded they sound? Melee's footsies are more important because the punish game is that much more brutal. If you honestly are using that assbackwards logic as your main reasoning for why smash 4 has more depth then, well, I guess you're actually an idiot.

Eitherway, the best analogy I can make, because I don't feel like wasting time trying to prove you're dumbass wrong, is chess and checkers. Sm4sh is checkers, the game has fewer options and if you try to be aggro you'll just get fuckin' jumped over and lose. It's also for little kids and like sm4sh isn't really that competitive at heart. Melee however is like chess, there are so many options in a given situation and competitively those decisions are made on a timer.

Only Xian plays FANG. FANG is garbage.

>Peach is not viable in the meta armada is just a beast
>"Just because there's only one person playing a character, it invalidates the character as a whole"
>proceeds to mention Puff as viable

>new discoved tech or combos (bowser, dk, lucario)
>implying up-throw up-air is a new combo
Meanwhile every other bowser/dk/lucario main never make top 32. Does that make the character good then? You tell me, you just mentioned that just because one person plays a character well, the character still isn't viable.

>People still dont know whats true and what isn't
Because rage is a thing. Does a comeback mechanic make a game deep? It makes it more easy if anything.
Everything being safe means that your options are limited, restricting your movement/possibilities, and that's shallow.

>apex 2015
>3 foxes, 2 sheiks/falco's, marth/puff/yoshi

>how many tournaments where in top 8 6/8 of those players are fox players
Give me 5 (five) examples

>how many people cp fd against spacies to chain grab them to death
Every Marth besides m2k counterpicks to Yoshi's because they're shit at chaingrabbing and prefer platform techchasing

>how many people get wobbled and tell me the game isn't repetitive
That would be a bad thing if they dominated the meta, which they don't.

You're implying here that Melee neutral is just people mindlessly running at each other, further proving that you actually don't know shit.

Gimps are shit in Sm4sh. No ledge hogging and everyone can recover from the blast zone.

for

FANG is the worst character in SFV (for 2 seasons). Pichu is the worst character in Melee.

You are a dumb fucking idiot

Smash isn't a fighting game

...

>Smash isn't a fighting game

You are a dumb fucking idiot

>pichu is the worst character in melee

wrong

>melee isn't a fighting game
>this
>meme

Two characters fight each other in a game, the winner is the won who didn't lose all of what the game considers life. Why do people still say dumb shit like this?

Xian is the best FANG that manages to get results at top level. Other than that, there's Dieminion who alone is more noteworthy than any of the other Pikachu players.

FANG is garbage, but saying that SFV is less balanced when your list of "viable" characters is forced to include a character so underwhelming that even FANG has better results and players than him, then you're pretty clearly reaching hard as fuck.

FANG is the worst character in SFV, and he's still more viable than fucking Pikachu in Melee.

Also Pichu is not the worst character in Melee. Pichu is shit, but at least he has one good move, which is more than other low-tiers can say.

>smash 4 has more options because things are safer and the most optimal moves and tech haven't been discovered
That "undiscovered tech" you refer to likely doesn't exist at all. That's why melee players quickly got bored of smash 4 and went back to melee.

>original poster here,
>only fox, falco, shiek, marth are worth the time the rest are either gimmick or carried by pros
If a character is used to win a tournament, it's viable. Peach and Puff are unarguably viable. If you're going to discount actual tournament-winning characters then your opinion is completely divorced from all semblance of reality or objectivity.
>also mango beat mew2king cause it was sad2king in losers
Oh, I haven't seen their most recent game. I was just referring to how their overall dynamic from matches years ago. I'll take your word that m2k was just playing badly in that match.

This image would be more accurate if it just replaced Pikachu and Ness with actual used characters. Blazblue one is spot on and doesn't deserve a Sunday spot.

If you don't play it, if you just want to move from point A to point B, all you need to do is flick the control stick in the direction you want to go. It's moving around 'tactically' in such a way that lets you take advantage of the games subsystems that you use the advanced movement options for. Basic movement doesn't demand this at all, which is refreshing compared to dashing in other fighters.

mango's "sloppy" play comes from most of his nskill coming from game sense, which he has said himself. When his head is clear and he is motivated hes the best of the gods, when hes doing good and has high expectations or drinks (nowadays) he plays like shit cause his head isn't clear. mango played like shit the final day (except sad2king cause mango isn't afraid of him and has no complex against him), all of day 3 was a cluster fuck for him

tell me how characters other than fox falco marth shiek and jiggs are viable when 85% of the melee scene plays a top tier and mid to low tiers have shit mu spreads with top tiers

mad characters in melee are carried by respectable pros (jiggs=hbox, peach=armada, falcon=s2j wizzy , icies=nintendude)

smash 4 has a plethora of offensive and defensive options, its just that they aren't as life or death as melee, which results in longer, more mental matches and adds depth. Its just hard to see that if you dont play or dont have experience with it

Why do people shit on Tekken for having in-depth/high execution movement but praise Smash for it? Not even a Tekken fag, just making a general observation here.

>smash 4
>more mental matches and adds depth

LOL

>tactical
You're full of shit, but you might be on to something.

When it comes to strategy and knowledge of game mechanics, Smash 4 is pretty simplistic. However, since a solid 70%+ of each match is all neutral interactions, you have the opportunity to put your opponent through enough 50/50s and RPS situations to get inside their head (if you're good). Because of this, there is a very complex emotional game that develops over the course of a set.

It is actually Melee's complexity that dampers this emotional game. There's nothing worse than getting in a tight battle, not of wits but of wills, only to have it suddenly end when your opponent flubs an input or misjudges a spacing.

And yeah, go ahead and make fun of me for glorifying a series of fast-paced RPS matches. Just don't try to pretend that SFV doesn't do the exact same thing.

>Ness was a good choice here

Do you guys think Melee players self insert as one of their 'gods'? The way people seem to talk about them in these threads leads me to believe they spend more time thinking about the players than one would normally require, one example being It's pretty common knowledge that Melee as a game is done and it's all about the players now, and that one leaving will more or less crumble the scene, ect ect, I believe this is the reason why Melee players idolize and obsess over the players and their lifestyles, but only recently has it dawned on me that part of all the obsession has something to do with self inserting/fantasizing about being a top player.

Because Tekken's execution is you vs the game, and not you vs the opponent.

That projection though

Z-axis fighters are discriminated against (IMO they arn't as fun)

only Z axis fighter i've ever had fun with was soul calibur

Who else plays both Smashes but only watches Melee here? Sm4sm is great to play with friends, but is awful to watch.

>using pk flash
>ever
>in any situation

>fantasizing about being a top player
It's fun to imagine that I'm playing Ice Climbers and doing some sort of ridiculous 0%-death non-wobble chain grab combo. Do I want to spent the time actually practicing that autistically for hours on end every day in order to one day beat someone in a tournament with it? lolno

>It's pretty common knowledge that Melee as a game is done

It can never be done. New tech is always being found and there is no skill ceiling.

No, it's the exact same thing as what that user was saying about Smash.

I think it's funny that you'll reply to my post with logic that was already called out and defeated by previous posts. Everything you've said has been refuted already. I get it, you suck at melee, and all of your melee friends won't play smash 4 with you. In order to feel good about yourself you need to convince yourself that the game you prefer to play is deeper. I'd love to know you're "competitive" background as well, as your understanding of what neutral actually is seems to be very lacking.

>Smash isn't a fighting game

1000000% true, and you are the dumbest fucking idiot in the entire universe


>life
>Smash Bros

Have you ever played the game? No one will respect the Smash community until they stop trying to lump themselves into a genre that isn't designed for 8-year-olds

Those characters are good in smash 4, the image doesn't state which game it's talking about

>That "undiscovered tech" you refer to likely doesn't exist at all. That's why melee players quickly got bored of smash 4 and went back to melee.

see my point earlier about how smash 4 is only 2 years old and melee is 15 and people said the same thing about melee when it was 2 years old, which is why they didn't consider it a fighting game back then.

your opinion is completely divorced from all semblance of reality or objectivity.

>If a character is used to win a tournament, it's viable. Peach and Puff are unarguably viable.

Look at the number of peach and puff players making top 8, or even top 32 and tell me with a straight face that those characters aren't carried by armada and Hbox (and mango back when he was a puff). That is the definition of being carried by a player. Also winning a tournament doesnt mean your viable. Why is it the same people at the top with those characters if they are viable?

If a character is used to win a tournament, it's viable. Peach and Puff are unarguably viable.

your opinions are completely divorced from all semblance of reality or objectivity.

Melee is a game about empathy, user.

Actually, all fighting games are about empathy. You have to feel what your opponent is thinking, then basically tell them "you're stupid for thinking that" through your gameplay.

It makes sense to me that spectators would attempt to empathize with top players while watching them play. In the end, we all just want to understand what's happening on the stream.