Remeber when anons used to say that morrowind was a dumbed down version of daggerfall

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I remember when you weren't a faggot. Wait, no I don't.

daggerfall was complete shit and a prime example of why you shouldn't ever use RNG to create your world.

You just have to play Daggerfall long enough and do enough quests to realize why Df is a more role-playing game. All those "useless" features, skills and complex char gen are part of what makes Df a superior role-playing game. As it is Morrowind is nothing better than Diablo or Dungeon Siege. I sugest you try to play Daggerfall thieves guild again with a thief character and also try the witches, commoners and merchants quests and those quests that are less simple or don't involve going into a dungeon. You will need to have at least one weapon skill even if you play as a thief to do the main quest dungeons so choose long blade and you are ready.

A friend of mine once told me he hated the dungeon crawling part so he just activated the cheat to jump to the right locations in huge dungeons. Except for the main quests you don't have to do dungeon crawl quests unless you want to. You can refuse and ignore quests you don't want to do with a minimal reputation penality.

Here's some Morrowind dumb downs just to clarify things:

> Biography in Daggerfall did have an influence in many things in the game. You can even receive more gold than normal in loots if you choose certain answers.

In Morrowind there is no biography generation.

> You can roll and adjust all your stats at chargen. Plus you can edit all your skill primary/major/minor skills, redistribute skill points and balance your char advantages / disadvantages when creating a custom class.

In Morrowind you can only choose your major/minor skills. They have powers which is a dumbed down replacement for lack of biography generation and lack of a/ds.

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> In Daggerfall you have reputation per faction and per kingdom. If your rep gets bad with the law of a certain kingdom it doens't change in neutral kingdoms and can even imporove to enemies of that kingdom. There were about 100 different factions in Daggerfall which had a indirect influence in the game. Some guilds are hidden and inaccessible until you do the right thing.

Morrowind law system was just surreal. You just pay money and solve your problems. Another Tod Howard thing where commiting crimes is just a joke. Plus everyone knows where the thieves guild or the assassins guild are. People even point directions to it.

> There are tons of exotic skills important to non combat classes and to non-magic users that were removed: etiquete, streetwise, climbing, swimming, languages. Most of these are social skills. A lot of skills were mixed. Some i agree like having less weapon skills. Others like mixing pickpocket into and lockpick into security is a bit dumb.

Some skills were added to Morrowind but most offer more options to combat. Spliting heavy and light armor and providing a shield skill was a good addition however. Alchemy was also a nice addition.

There are a lot of other features that if they were continued in future Tes games it would make the series really something to play.

The Daggerfall world was huge and with a much more rich political map than Morrow. There were more than a dozen of kingdoms in the Illiac each one having more than a thousand cities, dungeons, small towns, farms, homes, ruined castles, cemeteries, temples, witch coves, bandit camps, etc

The world was suposed to be dynamic with kingdoms breaking alliances and going into war. Vampire clans wuld ravage entire cities and bring the plague everywhere. See for example mount&blade with its dynamic world, war parties ravaging the land, and kingdoms fighting against each other. This is an example how good gameplay and originality can pay off.

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Classes like Acrobat, Healer, Ranger, the survival skill, Thief, Bard were suposed to provide a different life-style. Something different than just hack-and-slash. A bard for example could get some money in taverns and get more dialog clues with his superior social skills. Thief almost did it but some abilities like hide in shadows were bugged. But still there are plenty of quests were being a thief alone pays off and you can keep picking those quests. They will change slightly every time you pick them and it's not just the place and names that change. Sometime the offender and crime motivation also changes. It's all part of the template system created for Daggerfall. The decision to have the player dungeon crawl all main quests was just a VERY bad decision.

So instead of improving on this they decided to take a step backwards. Morrowind was not much better than Dungeon Siege or Diablo for an rpg. Oblivion will be not much better than Arena. Maybe one day they will get some ambition and try to make a game like Daggerfall was suposed to be. But i doubt because of what people think of what sells these days is to have hack-and-salsh gameplay and fluf classes focused only on combat. The world must be static and stories must be linear not to "frustrate" the player too much and make storytelling more linear and "intense" acording to the opinion of some people who never wrote a book. The problem is that all this goes against what makes a good rpg. So instead they just do adventure games and call them rpgs because you can dress-up in a lot different ways, choose your face and attributes for a different combat style. Man even adventure games in the old days were inteligent than this.

not an argument

I've only been on here for about 6 months so I don't remember this.

No. Daggerfall was packed full of bloat that nobody liked. 99.9999999% of the game world was nothing.
Morrowind was more focused, but it still played like shit, a majority of the interiors were small empty caves and it had a retarded attributes system.
Neither of them are good for what they are.

I really want to play daggerfall. Being lazy it's whats stopping me

>TL;DR
>i'll post not an argument, that'll get him

>let's say he's wrong, that'll make it true
a doctor shouting "Healed" at a sore throat won't fix it

Not an argument

Well said.

Will I like Daggerfall, gameplay wise, if I liked Ultima Underworld? Looks fun

step 1 download: wiwiki.wiwiland.net/index.php?title=Daggerfall_:_DaggerfallSetup_EN

Step 2 install: just as easy as step 1

Step 3: start the game: pick a race, pick or generate a /premade or custom class (always go custom).

Step 4: DO NOT TOUCH the 3 red bars in the options menu, save the game, quit, go into the daggerfall folder, run "eye of argonia.exe" (it increases load distance for stuff like buildings and npcs)

Step 5: enjoy. (don't forget when dungeon crawling always spam save and recall spell to the dungeon entrance.)

>>let's say he's wrong, that'll make it true
>a doctor shouting "Not an argument" at an argument won't disprove it.
>Not an argument

>retarded attributes system
Do you prefer skyrims?

It is easy to implement "Orcish" into the game when you don't have to worry about putting any thought into Illiac Bay city #462. You can easily have a climbing system in the game when near all surfaces are in cardinal directions. You can have a complex faction system when the quests needed to proceed are procedurally generated. When you move from a RNG world, 99% of which it you will never visit, to a handcrafted one, there has to be made some sacrifices.

I think it helped to play the game in its time, where there was nothing to compare it to (except maybe Ultima Underworld 2 - not sure of the dates), and I've not played DF in years (lost original game disk and haven't found a copy yet), so most of this is memory, and apologies if I've got anything wrong.

Daggerfall: Size of Great Britain
Morrowind: Size of a small city

DF: Intricate plotted quest (x3) with different outcomes
MW: Save the world, kill the bad guy

DF: Could refuse quest and be offered a different one. Fuck up in one guild, join another.
MW: If you refused (or even 'failed') a quest you couldn't progress any further in the few guilds available.

DF: Basic timetable with shops and city walls closed at night.
MW: The eternal now (even at night).

DF: Character creation with enough skills to create a truly personalised avatar.
MW: Starsigns (sigh), generic skillset, about five ugly, ugly faces to choose from...

DF: Dungeons you would have to plan for, stock up on items, and could spend RT days in.
MW: Dungeons that might be called cellars.

Someone said that DF was soulless, that is something I would accuse MW of. With DF they tried to create something never done before, they fell far short of the mark, but the soul of the developers was there in every similiar random quest generated, every news item about this royal household warring with that nation, with every randomly named NPC cardboard cutout.

Compared to MWs 3 dimensional cardboard cutouts who no longer even disappeared at night. A to B to C main quest that had one resolution. It's one major news story about the emporors ill health and the possibilities of troops withdrawing from MWs shores.

DF: Political intrigues and layered stories coated in a not great kill/get/escort random generator.
MW: One story, one outcome coated in a not great hand crafted kill/get/escort construction set.

I play vidya since 1990 and I couldn't care less about old Bethesda games. They were never good.

DF is legit my favorite game of all time. It's not even a game, really. It's an alternate universe.

Why recall spell to dungeon entrance.

Thanks btw

Play Arx Fatalis instead.

I like DF, I am not completely sure how to level up in it though as I'm currently only on level 2 even though I've been playing for a while. I like to think of it as a 3D version of Dwarf Fortress.

I "sugest" you fucking graduate highschool, hipster.

>The Daggerfall world was huge and with a much more rich political map than Morrow. There were more than a dozen of kingdoms in the Illiac each one having more than a thousand cities, dungeons, small towns, farms, homes, ruined castles, cemeteries, temples, witch coves, bandit camps, etc

In Morrowind the differences between houses in different geographies were absolutely different cultures. Clothes were tailored to a certain culture, and Morrowind presents us with examples of actual unique and distinct regions. Daggerfall is literally a game where nearly everything except capitol cities look exactly the same.

>The world was suposed to be dynamic with kingdoms breaking alliances and going into war. Vampire clans wuld ravage entire cities and bring the plague everywhere. See for example mount&blade with its dynamic world, war parties ravaging the land, and kingdoms fighting against each other. This is an example how good gameplay and originality can pay off.
But it wasn't dynamic. It was shallow, stale, and empty.

>Morrowind was not much better than Dungeon Siege or Diablo for an rpg.
Yeah, and Fallout 3 was better than New Vegas. What other dumb opinions can you throw out?

> like Daggerfall was suposed to be.
A game that Daggerfall isn't. Like every other Bethesda piece of trash it aims for ridiculously ambitious and settles for being trash. Morrowind was the most fleshed out game they ever made.

>The world must be static and stories must be linear not to "frustrate"
No, the exact problem with Daggerfall is that is has zero character because of randomization which makes the lack of any personal touches obvious to the audience. It is the definition of sterile, dull, and boring.

You can't even call Daggerfall great if you can't do simple shit you can do in other, better RPGs; at least in Morrowind I can pick up a candle. In Arcanum or Fallout 1/2 I can blow up door.

Because if you don't you have a BIG chance of getting LOST and DYING over-encumbered.

not him but the houses in hammerfell and high rock look a lot different, the textures for the houses in the jungle are different as well.

Thinking of Daggerfall as being like Morrowind is the wrong way. It's more of a 3d version of Dwarf Fortress where you can basically go around and do what you want in it. There's like 44 kingdoms and a lot of them aren't involved in the main quest, and your actions affect your rep in each kingdom.

there's also cool features in daggerfall that aren't present in the future games like the season system, holidays, etc

>MW: Save the world, kill the bad guy
Except there are a lot of branches and alternate solutions throughout the main quest even if it resolves one way.

>MW: If you refused (or even 'failed') a quest you couldn't progress any further in the few guilds available.
Incorrect. All you had to do was go to another guild hall and pay a bit of money to fix your reputation for failing a quest.

> about five ugly, ugly faces to choose from...
Everything in DF is ugly so this is a dumb criticism to level.

>DF: Dungeons you would have to plan for, stock up on items, and could spend RT days in.
You mean dungeons that have no point and have nothing inside them. Yes, of course! Nothing is so much better than something.

>Someone said that DF was soulless, that is something I would accuse MW of.
Why? MW actually took time and effort to create--- it is a game that was given a lot of attention to detail and actually has thematic and artistic weight.

>they fell far short of the mark, but the soul of the developers was there in every similiar random quest generated, every news item about this royal household warring with that nation, with every randomly named NPC cardboard cutout.
Yeah, so you are proud of the lack of content? I don't understand how "failing miserably" can be praised next to a game that actually completed the goals it set out to achieve.

>A to B to C main quest that had one resolution
Incorrect. Seems you have not played Morrowind or understand that there is a large number of quests with multiple solutions, even if you were too stupid to realize that.

>Oversimplification - The post

>decide to play Daggerfall for the first time
>enjoying it through all the weird archaic bullshit
>appreciating the size of the world, character customization, etc.
>decide to join the fighter's guild
>first quest, go to some dungeon and kill a werebear
>oh fuck a werebeat this is gonna be tough, may as well go get my ass kicked to get a feel for how strong I am
>go to said dungeon
>it's filled with regular bears, wolves, and the occasional tiger cool enough.
>clear out the entire dungeon like THE ENTIRE DUNGEON
>killed everything in sight in every possible corner i can find
>learn that hidden doors can sometimes be found by just ramming your face into walls and mashing interact with no tells whatsoever unless you switch to the look tool and then smash your face against walls so you may as well just fucking interact.
>find a hidden door to a storeroom with nothing in it besides crates with potatos and other useless shit
>find another hidden door inside of the first hidden room
>inside is a BEDROOM with a single bear in it
>smash the bear in one hit like I did to the other 30+ bears in the dungeon
>quest text pops up
"Turns out the werebear was just a normal bear and the villagers were overreacting lol!"
>why was did 1 bear out of 30 matter
>why was it in a bedroom
>why was the quest objective hidden behind 2 bullshit hidden doors with absolutely no indication

and that's when I decided that daggerfall isn't for me.

And Skyrim is a dumbed down version of oblivion that is a dumbed downed version of Morrowind the next one will dumb down Skyrim

I can't wait for the Skyrim elitism in 15 years.

youtube.com/watch?v=YLq91Q6RbYs

>MFW Zenimax and Microsoft will have turned PC mods into console and pc 3rd party micro-transactions made by modtools inside the game and hosted on bethesda and microsofts websites, by the time we get TES6.

>Turns out the werebear was just a normal bear and the villagers were overreacting lol!

I love the fuck out of almost everything in Daggerfall, but I agree that the crazy dungeon design with no rhyme or reason is the big turn off.