Are attributes an outdated concept?

Are attributes an outdated concept?

They tend to work as an umbrella for character/stat modifiers, which is redundant when you let the player chose those modifiers outright.

Why does that make them redundant?

I still think it's the best system, getting the actual stats from attributes but having certain classes get additional bonuses from a primary one. It means every attribute is relevant on everyone, but characters still have ones they focus on.

The attribute concept is a huge reason why dota itemization is so much better than LoL's

Just using Dota as an example, why should I have the attribute strength which offers +hp and +health regen when I could skill into those individually, effectively giving the player more control over their character?

i think theyre okay but the amount of attribute points should be MUCH smaller than they currently are

you dont need 15 points to distribute if the only possible builds are 2. you should be given 2 points then

There is also stuff that just gives hp or health regen. Attributes are fun because it's one stat that gives you a lot of beneficial stuff when it's your primary attribute, and it means they can cleanly give an item "+x all attributes" and have it give you a little bit of every stat in the game, each on a proper balanced curve.

Yes.

They're a holdover from tabletop games that designers can't let go for some reason.

Attributes lead directly to the incredibly boring number increase grind (now i have X more health!) instead of adding interesting mechanics or meaningful choice (it's always obvious what stat is optimal). At the same time, stats arbitrarily restrict build diversity often to a retarded degree, especially when they're tied to items. (you can't wear this robe DUMB guy, this robe is for SMART PEOPLE)

OP is right that you can can accomplish the same thing with a well designed skill tree and/or itemization without the need for another layer of redundancy.

That being said, every attempt I can think of departing from the use of attribute points has been a trainwreck, e.g., oblivion.

So if 10 str gives 100 hp and 10 hp regen, why not just write an item that's giving +10 as +100hp and +10 hp regen?

It's redundant.

Have you ever played Diablo III? They've already tried it.

One thing you can't easily represent is overlapping multipliers, I guess. So, 10 str 10 endurance gives a non-linear increase in hp over 10 str 5 endurance.

But I think you make a fair point. I guess part of it is it's simpler for a lot of users to optimize high-level stats rather than each individual feature. But I don't know.

Did you even read my post?
Because it's cleaner, and that attribute does more than just 100 hp and 10 hp regen. The attribute number can affect other things as well, for example in dota your primary attribute gives you attack damage in addition to what it normally does, and some abilities scale their damage off of attributes. The "+x all attributes" thing I mentioned is another primary reason.

It really depends on the game and implementation, but when done well and in the right systems it's just a cleaner and more interesting way to do itemization in RPG-style games.

Bitching on Sup Forums is an outdated concepts

Fuck off.

Because if your playing a strength hero that item also gives +10 damage.

Your not going to have an item that says "gives +100hp, +10hp regen and on certain heroes grants +10 damage" it's elegant, literally the opposite of redundant.

What's an alternative?

That only applies to Dota, which specifically has attribute specific mechanics.

Did you mean to post this thread at /tg/?

Also, no. If you think of stats purely as a way to get modifiers, you are thinking in ways that are way too autistic. If anything, all modifiers should be removed, leaving only the stats, since stats have meaning beyond a number (ie. a "strength" stat means all the things the real world concept of strength means) and modifiers are just for math (+1 damage means nothing).

Don't a lot of games have similar concepts?
Anyways even without things that are directly affected by the attribute stat, the purpose of attributes is to deliver stats that typically go together at set proportions anyways in a cleaner and more readable way while also adding some flavor.

This also means gear that does just one of the attributes' effects has some extra appeal because they let you play with those proportions.

>STRENGTH
Taurus
Virgo
Capricorn

>AGILITY
Aries
Leo
Sagittarius

>INTELLIGENCE
Gemini
Libra
Aquarius

>WORTHLESS
Cancer
Scorpio
Pisces

What stat are you, Sup Forums?

Because that stat doesn't multiple individual things, which can be modified separately for balance purposes?

Charisma implies that you are both good at speaking, as well as an attractive person. You can be a deaf/mute smoking hot babe, and you can be a raggedy ass gross hobo with a radio voice.

>Sagittarius
>A fucking half horse with a bow
>Not strength

Are you retarded?

Yep if they are modifiable more then by 30% they are useless

Disgaea may be a shit grindfest, but I've always liked the idea they use, that every class has its various stats, but then different percentage modifiers to how much boost/gain you get from adding to those stats.

In the end the numbers are so insane that they don't practically matter in that series, but it'd be good in a more grounded one.

If we're talking about the concept in general it depends on a lot of game design choices. Like huge swathes of things. For starters there might not be individual modifiers like that in other games and they might not give the player that much control. It's really not that simple. Or in some ways it is.

Take the ability scores in D&D. These are huge as they are your rolling modifier for a lot of things (ex. D20 + INT) but you can't change them too dramatically. There are stat boosting magic items but they're typically kind of rare, pricy, mid to late game, and don't usually have as dramatic of an effect on the level of MMORPGs like WoW with all those modifiers on one piece of equipment. Everything is largely governed by your character's permanent "genetics" first and their gear second. Admittedly very few video game RPGs fall into this category.

Attributes aren't outdated, they have just been receiving poor implementation over the years.
There's alot of games where they aren't necessary, but developers leave them in.
Games that I've played recently have been trying to cut them out though, to the game's detriment.

It's a system that needs to be utilized properly, not just thrown into games because the developer thinks it'd be nice to have a stat sheet.

Limitations can make things more challenging and interesting.

tieing set attributes to stats makes character building more engaging since you can't just min/max your points but have to make some sacrifices here and there

>Just using Dota as an example

Developers need to distinguish between attributes and stats/skill.

Attributes should be hardlined for a character.Modifying an attribute even slightly should be rare event that fundamentally changes the character.

Stat/Skill should be easier to change but remain
relative to a characters attributes.

IE Attack power=Strength*lvl+Equipment boost+Attack Buff-Attack Debuff

There is also something to be said for "Bargain" attributes. If a game gives, for 10 STR, +100 Hp, +10 hp regen, +10 damage, +10 weight carry and maybe +10 push power or whatever, then all that is rolled into the single stat. Now not all of those stats are beneficial at the same time, so what you can do is allocate an amount of power that each of those stats are worth point-for-point and then try to balance how much each piece of gear or loot is worth, and this can also be done for talent points or feats. However, if you then roll a handful of stats into a single attribute you can allow a bunch of stats for a cheaper price than what they go for normally, but more expensive at any single moment in time due to you not using them all at once.

Perhaps you dont care at all about weight carry, push power or hp regen. Now those stats are weighing down the item if you dont utilise it to its fullest. This gives a player some way to bargain a more statistically rounded character but dulls the edges against players/mobs/bosses that are fine tuned. This is a balancing act and some games do it right and others do it badly, but the concept is sound is fine to use as a tool, like all mechanics should be used.

Your point?