How do people enjoy games with necessary levelling in them?

How do people enjoy games with necessary levelling in them?

In a game like borderlands/warframe, it does not matter in the slightest as to how skilled you are at the game if you are a few levels below your enemies. Grunts will kill you in one hit, and you can literally empty your entire ammo supply TRYING to kill a single tanky enemy in Borderlands. If I shoot someone in the face with a shotgun, they should die. Not shrug it off just because the number above their head is higher.

If you're a higher level, then enemies can't touch you. You can make the game into a fucking joke by grinding. Sure, grinding isn't fun, but the fact that you can beat a game by just wasting time instead of improving skill seems like a shitty idea to me.

How is this skillful/fun? Is it the gambling aspect that makes people like this shit? What's the point here? Why make a game this way?

STALKER got it right. No levelling, just more powerful equipment, but even the earliest guns can still kill late game enemies if you are good enough, and even have some benefits over later game guns at times. Dark Souls is good in this regard as well, you can beat the game as a soul level 1, and most weapons (even starting) are effective in beating the game.

That said, the entire idea of levelling to begin with seems retarded to me. I get it in multiplayer focused games like Killing Floor, to show high/low experience players, but why does it have to exist in so many single player games? Why purposely restrict the player from abilities and shit for most of the game? To ease them into it? What a joke.

Same with many turn based games.

>LEVEL UP
>+ 5% HP
>+ 5% ATK POWER
>OH WAIT ENEMIES GOT 5% STRONGER AS WELL SO NOTHING CHANGED EXCEPT NUMBERS
>Repeat x 200

How do people enjoy these games? Enemies aren't smart or tactical in shit like borderlands. They are just bullet sponges with different degrees of sponginess.

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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning_chamber
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Borderlands was supposed to be a shootan Diablo clone and the first one did a pretty decent job. If you don't like autistic loot hunting then go play something else.

What's the appeal of loot hunting though?

You get a weapon with bigger numbers than the last weapon, even though it's the same fucking gun otherwise. Nothing changes except more damage to compensate for more bullet sponges.

You're not challenging your body, or your brain, or fucking anything. Just grinding for the sake of getting bigger numbers on your gun that don't change a fucking thing.

It literally just seems like an addiction thing to me. Like people get happy getting a "better" item with bigger numbers, and just keep going, doing the same boring thing over and over and over in hopes of getting another "better" item.

There's so many ways to pace a game, to balance it, to stop players doing shit you don't want. Why ruin the gameplay and make it into a tedious skill-doesn't-matter mess?

Warframe has a terrible scaling problem.

It will probably never be fixed.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning_chamber
>kill shit
>get shiny loot
>want to kill more for shinier loot
I guess you are just too intelligent to fall for these games, I wish this was reddit so I could give you some gold broski. Look at you, all smart and shit.

my account is XxX_sephirothdarknesssonicxsasuke_XxX

give me some gold

seriously though, how can people be this fucking stupid to fall for this shit

I am no psychologist, but my personal experience as a gamer as well as my intuition has led me to this conclusion:

Gaming is a lot about completing tasks and getting rewarded for it. The fact that you feel rewarded and get that sense of accomplishment when you receive loot makes you feel satisfied. The human dopamine neurobiology, at its core, is about anticipation and trying to predict rewards based on what's happening in our environment. It's all about pattern recognition. Whats more; unexpected dopamine rushes highlight failures in our predictive system, and it’s a system that’s designed to help us figure out why we didn't see life’s good things coming and thus how to find them again in the future. This is why the random nature of loot drops in many games is so effective at getting people to keep playing: it capitalizes on our brain’s attempts to predict the unpredictable.

Of course this is also dependent on the psychological makeup and tendencies of the players. Some people will find it enjoyable, others will not. Games like Diablo are much less reliant on story and characterization. They addict the type of people that are dependent upon instant gratification to get their fix.

This is what I truly hate about grinding games, they make them completely retarded on your way to the top, unless you wield the omnisword in the last dungeon of the game that requires XYZ side quest to get then you get fucking decimated by every fucking thing, and lord help you if you're playing one of those brain dead games that takes away the items you used or the last save you did on your suicide quest. A game is not fucking fun if you only start being good once you stumbled upon the right gear, no game is enjoyable that you have to die 5x times just to figure out how to kill a slighty harder grunt. fuck that. Digimon currently has me fucked up for this reason.

the beauty of the word "literally" is that as soon as you see it, you can be sure that the post was made by a millennial and that it will be nothing but trash

it's completely true and accurate though

meme game for autists

More like Boringlands lmao

LMAO

>You get a weapon with bigger numbers than the last weapon, even though it's the same fucking gun otherwise. Nothing changes except more damage to compensate for more bullet sponges.
An Orion is different from a Bessie

It adds a metagame overlay over the regular shoot mechanics. If you have to shoot some guy with 200 bullets, you're gonna have an option of killing him in 20, you just godda find it, like using Zer0, the Gunzerker with a specific build, slag them and change weapons, elemental damage matchup (use corrosive weapons against armored enemies), in Warframe, blind and execute, strip armor, blind and bypass, stun, perma-stun (in Warframe you generally don't even have to kill anything in most missions).

If you're great at shooting games, you can overstep your boundaries (say you're level 15 and because you're good and use cover/headshot, you can take on level 25 enemies). It's also a shit-crutch for shit players (they can level to 50 and attack level 30 enemies and feel great about themselves).

That's just it, a metagame overlay of semi-complex shit that enchances your gunplay. They're okay games, not amazing, but okay, Warframe and Borderlands. The Diablo-like loot makes it addicting.
You are 100% on target that the enemies are shit and not scary for most of these shitty RPG-games, but then again almost no enemy is when you've mastered the game (say FEAR1 soldiers on hardest will pulverize you up until you learn their reaction times and locations).

Also, Killing Floor is a shitty comparison to a non-level based multiplayer game because a level 0 Medic and level 6 Medic are worlds apart on damage reduction and healing done, you have to grind classes in KF to be useful on higher difficulties.

Sorry I fucked up I thought you meant KF is a great example of a multiplayer non-levelup system.

Props, Dark Souls and STALKER are great singleplayer non-levelup games, though their enemies become trivial too later on after you've gotten gud.

One more idea for mutli-shooters: your rank/level/bennies show how much you've invested into the game, and as such, higher ranked characters *earn* stronger gear to get that reward loop going for the addicts/players.
If casinos started having levelups and shit for its gamblers they'd bring in the business.

dunno about borderlands, but what does it for me in a diablo-esque game is finally getting a build to work. its definitely a subjective kind of enjoyment, but instead of solving, say, a crossword puzzle, you're ripping and tearing enemy mobs apart with your electric masseuse fingers

I have a problem with a lot of puzzles games as well to be honest.

I can't play any puzzle game that lets me click a "hint" button an infinite amount of times or any puzzle game that literally just lets me brute force my way through by clicking everything until only correct answers remain.

Call me a dumbass, but once you make that ability available to me, I can't help but abuse the fuck out of it.

Borderlands has new game plus modes, right?

It it worth playing through the game as a fully levelled character, would you say?

I mean, at that point, I'd guess the game would have to be at least partially balanced for a highest level character, and further leveling bullshit won't come into it.

borderlands was made for autists. the leveling/doing the campaign over and over to unlock harder difficulties/bullet sponge enemies when increasing difficulty

just complete autism. only kinda fun first playthrough

I enjoy leveling mostly because I'm always looking 5 skill points ahead of what I plan on using my XP on. Besides the nemesis system I spent most of my Shadow of Mordor time getting new skills. And while doing it all at once would be good progression does often feel nice since you aren't overwhelmed with abilities. What I do hate though is how the requirements for stuff increase each level whether it is materials for crafting or the amount of XP needed. I'm playing Deus Ex Mankind Divided for the first time and forgot how much I loved experience needed never increases. At first I kept thinking "I only have ____ praxis but need ___" and before I even left the room I randomly wandered in I gained 2 more just from opening vents and windows with a little bit of hacking. I wish a few more games did that and will admit it can be hard to advance in some of those games with level restrictions. In stuff like Borderlands though I try to do as many side missions as I can to stay ahead a few levels during main missions and those main missions are often very boring. I'm not even gonna get started on weapon level restrictions, you can have a gun that is 120 points stronger than your current weapon but oh no can't fucking use it because you're 4 levels under what it needs despite being 8 levels above the required level for everything else. I have no problem with grinding or farming in some cases but then you have games like Destiny or Let it die that start out as a fun ride but then make it a chore that needs to be repeated 5x a day. Killing the same boss over and over for a crystal that has a 30% chance to drop or trekking to the same area just because enemies give off above average experience points just isn't fun.

Borderlands 2 UVHM is kind of a pain in the ass without the right build and gear

On the bright side, gear is arguably easier to get since everything scales to you, for example, the highest DPS pistol in the game is arguably one of the easiest things to farm, and it'll last a decent amount of levels. There's also a SMG that acts like a fast firing shotgun that you can get every time you go into a certain zone (which means you can just go back and forth a few times and there will be a handful there that you can choose the best from and vendor the rest)

I've actually found UVHM moderately enjoyable

That system is avaliable to literally anyone for nearly every game and has been for ages, it's called gamefaqs

>This is what I truly hate about grinding games, they make them completely retarded on your way to the top, unless you wield the omnisword in the last dungeon of the game that requires XYZ side quest to get then you get fucking decimated by every fucking thing
That reminds me of something. I can't remember what game it is but I know I have a game where you basically get bent over backwards during the final boss unless you got this random weapon from a random side mission and not even an important side mission. I did it and it wasn't exactly hard but very missable.