So, what timeless morals and messages does BotW express through gameplay, environments, symbolism, etc?

So, what timeless morals and messages does BotW express through gameplay, environments, symbolism, etc?

This was the reason why Majora's Mask was the best zelda game, because not only was it a "perfect game" in every facet (gameplay, sound desin, art design, narrative, etc) and offered unique gameplay (transformation masks and keeping track of NPC schedules/world events), it also has a highly interpretative ludonarrative that's told through your actions and in-game symbolism. To this day, people are still writing essays on the possible meanings of each part of the game, let alone the entire thing.

But since people are quick to say BotW > Majora's Mask despite the fact it's only a few days old and doesn't have the time to properly define its legacy yet, I have to ask, "Why?"

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>video games
>teaching morals and messages
So let me guess you majored in philosophy and you're typing this right now in between your shifts at Starbucks?

>highly interpretative ludonarrative

Please tell me that you're reposting the work of some hack games """journalist""" trying to put their 4.0 GPA in English Lit. to work and not your actual opinion.

>An artistic (or if you prefer, entertainment) medium
>Being unable to teach a moral or message
>Even though they're directed, written, and polished by people, just like literature, films, and all other forms of artistic mediums do the same.
That doesn't make any logical sense, why do you think this way?

>Shitting on ludonarrative.
>In a thread about a singleplayer game that's driven by its narrative.

Looking for threads where there isn't any. The fact that you think MM is the best game ever shows it.

Videogames, like film/literature/etc, can tell a narrative.

Narratives can include morals and messages.

Due to the fact videogames are the first interactive medium, they have created a means of storytelling through gameplay.

Therefore, you can teach a moral or message through gameplay.

An example of this is when Undertale provides consequences for killing people and rewards you for not killing them. Sure, undertale is a bad game, but that doesn't change the point that it taught a moral through gameplay.

This isn't philosophy, this is logic 101.

kek if you need to be taught that killing is wrong through a video games you're too young to play games. Video games are bottom of the barrel in literature. Go read a book if you want to learn

Good luck finding legit discussion about such matters in this board.
This board is filled with stupid teenagers that dont pay attention to sound design/atmosphere/meaning and only care about their ebin gameplay even though most of their favorite games are only as good as they are because of masterful design in areas such as the ones I mentioned.

But I dont agree with you on the gameplay bit, I prefer alttp a bit more on that aspect and the same goes for art style since I'm a sucker for sprites and 2d.

Anyway, MM is pretty good, Botw isnt an ''artistic'' game but it does have good atmosphere and gameplay and other stuff.

People saying Botw > MM is not the end of the world, people have their own opinion aswell, and to some extent there are things that Botw probably does better.

You don't even know what the word means.

>Timeless morals in my video games? It's more likely than you'd think

Why are you attacking the example for being simple? The point isn't that it's a lesson worth being taught, the point is that it CAN tell a lesson, through gameplay.

This means that there is potential to be found with videogames as a way of teaching morals. You haven't disproven that at all.

Also, do you read literature? If not, how do you know it has more potential to teach morals than videogames? Isn't that the Mala Fides fallacy? If so, why do you believe that a passive medium centered around prose and writing can compare to an interactive medium?

Finally, I don't believe you're ever "too young" to play videogames, a child could easily get a lot out of undertale as it is a childrens game that teaches a childish moral. As bad as Undertale is I think it would have a positive impact on a child because it teaches them directly that killing is wrong, instead of passively like every other medium.

>ludonarrative
Oh fuck off and wax your mustache you IPA drinking sorry excuse for a man.

>Isn't that the Mala Fides fallacy
kek, OP are you here to get other people to do your homework

I'm not sure if you are baiting or not, but incase you arent, I do believe videogames can teach morals and deliver a powerful message.
I believe that literature isnt the same as a videogame because it lacks the interactivity, the fact that only you can drive the game forward through improving and using what the game offers you, also there is no music, and the way atmosphere is created is very different.

Some people dont get this, probably because they are afraid to think that vidya can have good and smart messages.

I'll admit I was wrong about that but what does that have to do with my argument.

It's just a narrative. Stop attatching words like ludo, post-modern etc where they don't belong.

ludonarrative and narrative in the context of videogames are two different things, though.

To ignore all the autism about undertale and muh basic logic, lemme try to answer the OP question

I think the weapon durability system and its inducing inability to allow people to hoard could be tied to teaching people about impermanence (which buddhist scholars masturbate over) along with the fact that the backstory involves an apocalyptic event showing society as impermanent in addition to amnesiac Link starting from scratch, and on another level the Zelda formulas/traditions even being subject to change and fluctuation. Even one of the things people spend the most time on- equipment upgrades - are technically not based on a system of permanent progress since you can SELL equipment (and buy more than one), so your cousin when you let him play can totally epic prank xD you by selling all your hard earned gear (eventide isle/pic related like a microcosmic form of that).. but even if that happened you probably wouldn't stop playing because it doesn't change the merits of intrinsically rewarding exploration

Fuck off. It's people like you that think MGS2's meta narrative make it not shit as a game. It's people like you that think Bloodborne's lore was deep and creative. It's people like you that probably masturbate endlessly to Deus Ex and other cyberpunk shit because it "really makes you think" and is the closest you might ever come to being exposed to themes you might find in a halfway-decent book so it makes you feel smarter.

Go tip your fedora somewhere else.

>ludonarrative

Nice strawman argument. I agree with OP and disagree with all of those things.

hey, IPAs are good

...

: the thread. Am I in /lit/?

Who gives a fuck what you think.

Why are you so mad that people like having some substance in their vidya, user?

Because the last time video games were good, they had roots in arcade design. And like Carmack said, story is about as important as it is in porn. Games are an interactive medium designed for your wits and your reflexes. If you want to tell a story, write a book.

You can do everything right, and still have shit fucked up for a century because someone else fucked up.

/thread

I agree with you and this is why I find it stupid that people think BotW and MM are incomparable when they both have morals that stem from buddhist ideologies, while MM focuses on the ego (and subsequently the abandonment of said ego), and BotW focuses on the constant cycle of decay and rebirth.

In fact, I would argue that both are very similar in their stories, they're just executed very differently, and which one is better is dependent on how well both age.

Well, I consider MM to be the worst Zelda I've ever played (though I haven't played SS), so saying that BotW is better than MM isn't really saying anything for me. It's literally saying, "It's better than the absolute worst Zelda game I have ever played; a game so bad that I would genuinely rather play Drakengard 1 or 2 than that Zelda game."

But I can really get off to a good story in porn that compliments the pornography over a piece of porn with no context. Why do you think Doujins are so popular?

this board is full of people like that.
when will people recognize that being kino is one of the most important aspects of the game?
I'll give you an example lads
MGS2 > MGS3
Xenogears > Xenoblade
FFIX and FFVIII > FFVII
MM > OOT
Bioshock > Bioshock Infinity

Just a few well known examples.
philistinelets, will they ever learn?

I don't see what people saw in majoras mask I like the theme but I couldn't be assed for the rest of the game. All of ikana was amazing and even after playing BotW its still my favorite LoZ area with my favorite mini dungeon and main dungeon and 3rd favorite boss.

>Why do you think Doujins are so popular?
because you can see a little girl raped by orcs with cocks so huge they make a crease on her body

And that context is what makes it so hot. Therefore, the story mattered just as much as the porn itself.

So it's a moot point, stories can make both videogames and porn better.

Good fucking taste my dude.

kek no the story doesn't matter, what matters is the orcs raping the loli.

you are stupid.

Coming from the hipster that's not an insult

Actors/characters are not the same as story.

I'm not the same dude, I just think that you are being stupid in giving less value to the elements that make the doujin good.
They are not just the orcs, but I guess you dont understand that, I wont botherl.

>Characters are not the same as story.
Yes, you are retarded.

All children, leave this thread now. The adults are talking.

>Characters are not the story
Correct, you're almost there understanding why doujins are good

Try to write a character without writing.

Try to draw a character without thinking about the features that define him.

Go on, you can't.

Demon's Souls
LttP
Fallout Tactics

>literally "it's the first game that the fewest people have played so it's the best"
>literally "it's LE GAMING CLASSIC so it's the best"
>literally "nobody talks about this one so it's the best"
ok

this is correct

>ok
Glad we can agree.

>If it's popular it's bad
>If it's obscure it's bad
>Quality is measured by exposure

Wrong

>Bloodborne
Good.
>Majora's Mask
Literally the worst Zelda.
>Fallout anything
No.

>What's an easy way of saying that a game has a narrative that's expressed through gameplay? Many games have a narrative, but tell them independent of the game, like Braid or Bioshock.
>I know! I'll make a new word! Let's see..
>I'll take the latin word "Ludo," which means "I play," and combine it with "narrative." This makes an entirely separate word that differentiates between a game with a narrative and a game that tells a narrative through gameplay!
>There, "Ludonarrative." That sounds good and rolls off the tongue easily!
>Let's see what all of my peers think:
Do you see how stupid you sound?

You're going to try to peg me as an anti-intellectual, but I'm actually a humanities grad student. I just think you're a fag.

Are you mentally impaired?
Ludonarrative is an actual word, its not like some Sup Forumsirgin just made it up.
Jesus christ.

You can throw swords at people to kill them

>You can throw swords at people to kill them

literally itt

MM has a better atmosphere and even better NPCs which makes it easier to come back to than the other Zeldas, but BotW is ultimately just a better game. Climbing and exploration in general has become such a huge fundamental mechanic now that it's actually really fucking hard to go back to any of the other 3D Zeldas including OoT, but like I said, MM still holds up in enough ways to warrant additional playthroughs.

Demon's Souls is the least popular Soulsborne game

Nice high school tier reading material there.

literal children BTFO
Anyone who disagrees with this is wrong and nothing can change that fact.

Majora's isn't even a better game than Ocarina, never mind ALttP, and NEVER mind calling it a "perfect game", holy shit

newfags who can't even recognize a decade old mspaint comic

What timeless morals and messages does MM express

As a /lit/ guy those books are so entry level I'm surprised Metamorphosis isn't there. Whoever made this image should seriously just sit down and read for once in his life.

Accepting your mortality and abandoning your ego after experiencing what it's like to live multiple lives.

Both are games for children. There is no deeper meaning

see
Nice counter-opinion with absolutely no facts or arguments to back it up. Wanna try again?

It's just a gimmick. You think those nips put ANY thought into it whatsoever?

How does Link abandon his ego? I'm not sure where you draw that conclusion from especially considering he's a silent protagonist

No, they did it because it was cool

Why do you think you know what people you don't even know thought?

That was the entire point of the part where you give all your masks to the kids on the moon

Not OP, but I would argue "real heroism isn't fearlessness, it's a willingness to act in spite of fear"

MM is a depressing game because it tells the story of a number of people who are coming to grips with the fact that they are almost certainly about to die. The way they cope and process this is different, but at the end of the third day it amounts to the same thing.

The game lets Link act to stop this outcome, but due to the way the game is structured (an inescapable time limit, constant pressure to act quickly, endless repetition of tasks) the PLAYER is made to feel that desperate fear as well. Link is fearless, the player is white-knuckled because they've got 8 minutes of real-world-time left to kill this boss and get the mask or he's gotta do the whole fucking dungeon over again.

It's a very stressful game for the player; through gameplay, Link transforms from a mute idealized hero into a silently suffering knot of stress and panic, powering through a Sisyphean challenge simply because that's what a hero does. Link becomes (through the player) just like all the other people of Termina, except he has the willpower to do something.

Of course I'm just pulling this from my ass

How do you know?

>Why do you think you know what people you don't even know thought?
Because I'm not autistic and I don't have difficulty understanding people and their motivations.

How do you know

That's extremely egotistical of you to think you understand the motivations of someone you've never even met. It's no wonder you missed the point of Majora's Mask.

Because the game expresses it itself.

Are you sure you're not reading too deep into getting a reward for full completion?

If it was simply getting a reward for completion then why would you have to give away all of your masks to begin with? Why couldn't you keep them? Why would this symbolism consistent with all of the other buddhist symbolism in the game?

>buddhist symbolism
Hahaha it feels like I'm reading someone who just played an SMT game and thought it was the deepest thing ever

You're also claiming to know what the writers' intentions were. Even if there is a deeper meaning, this is your interpretation of it. The least you can do is not be hypocritical.

How is that relevant? We aren't talking about SMT, nor have we talked about its use of buddhist symbolism.

I don't know what the writers intentions were, I'm only stating that the game expresses what the game expressed.

>smug anime face
>hehehe x is overrated

Hmmm, smells like an Sup Forums shitposter

>smug anime face
It's called "ahegao" you fucking moron

quick while the children aren't looking post good vidya essays

elgeniomaligno.eu/majora’s-mask-the-game-with-a-thousand-narratives-miguel-bernardo-olmedo-morell/

mm was about dealing with the inevitability of death.
botw is about taking responsibility and fixing what you fucked up

The game didn't express any of that, you're going into it with the belief that it does and making assumptions to fit your narrative

There are actual art games, like Fatale and Bientôt l'été. You don't have to jog your noggin' over a Nintendo game made for children.

You keep them on a return to the game afterwords.

Since you're clearly qualified to declare what is an isn't an art game, what do you think about

Obviously, because you went back in time to before you gave them away, dumbass. Plus it was essentially an NG+

So there's only meaning in something until you don't think there is?

I haven't looked into it, but there have to be good MGS2 essays out there. Kojima was far too prophetic to not have someone write about it

When did I say that? I said that in the context of the game, you went back in time to the point before you gave all of your masks away. That has nothing to do with what you think I said.

>why would you have to give away all of your masks to begin with?
The masks are a barrier of entry to the hide and seek game each kid has. Also having no masks is the motivation for Majora to give you the Fierce Deity's Mask.

>all of the other buddhist symbolism
Such as?

If you are really going to argue that symbolism exists in the game then actually list and talk about everything because this discussion is going to go on forever.

>using first person pronouns in academic writing
Poor form. And Campbell is overdone.

actually I think articulated it better than I ever could