Perfect MMOs don't exi-

>Perfect MMOs don't exi-

Yes, Legion is a perfect MMO, you are correct.

Implying BC wasn't the beginning of the end
>Makes more content obsolete then it adds
>retcons story to appeal to the asian market
>removes faction specific content
>turns PVP into a moba

this, completely
BC was the first step on the road to making every class exactly the same
Arena meant little bitches crying their class couldn't 1v1 everyone else on the server

>Blood Elf
Kill yourself.

Still wondering why the fuck they didn't just improve vanilla instead of adding in a bunch of gimmicky bullshit.

Transmog, Dalaran, even the fucking flying mounts are acceptable. But giving the horde paladins and the alliance shamans? New fuckraces? Raising the level cap? All bullshit.

Keep the cap. Keep the class divisions between factions. Build upon the world you already have, instead of pushing it aside to introduce NEW - And there's really nothing new about it in actuality - EXCITING CONTENT.

I want to enjoy Legion so much, but the demands to be cutting edge are too much, and casual players tend to be fucking dogshit in this day and age, so I don't think I'd ever find a community that's remotely what I want. Blizzard is just killing the game for me, there's no place for high end players who don't want the grind.

T. top 300 raider in EN/ToV

Literally the only bad things about TBC was Magister's Terace giving raid quality loot, and resilience.

Horde needed paladins, alliance needed shamans, this is a fact. Too hard to balance factions otherwise. Hardcore play would be retarded, requiring hardcores to swap back and fourth betweeen ali and horde depending on how sham/pal balance is.

Bitch pls

The problem is that once the core game was finished in 2004 they continued with the everquest route of just making raids and nothing else

Expansions create a new buffer so end game fags actually have to do something and don't just quit, which slowly over time got streamlined into the WOW cycle we have now

>Hit end game
>gear up
>Do dungeons/raids for better gear
>patch hits
>all my gear is useless, effectively restarting character progression

>I want to enjoy Legion so much, but the demands to be cutting edge are too much

Same, keeping up is pretty much a full time job. If I was still a NEET I wouldn't mind it but after working for an entire day I don't feel like spending my entire night preparing for the upcoming three nights of 3 hour raids by picking consumables for hours on end and grinding m+ for the small chance of a legendary dropping. There's no good middle ground between braindead LFR tier and mega treadmill grind mythic.

Heroic should be that gap but Legion heroic feels like what Normal used to be

>Horde needed paladins, alliance needed shamans, this is a fact. Too hard to balance factions otherwise.


This is not a game designer's mentality. The point of classes in RPG is for DISTINCTION. If you can't balance this then it shouldn't even be in the game. But you can. It's just that developers get greedy as fuck, bitch out when they should really be pushing the envelope when it comes to carving out game mechanics, and forget to consider what is FUN. Sometimes I wonder if these fuckers even play their own game nowadays.

>Makes more content obsolete than it adds
I'm not sure what you mean by this. You'll need to give specific examples. People were doing Karazhan even at the end of the expansion during BC. Content wasn't being phased out until Wrath, when they removed tiered progression through raids.
>Turns PvP into a MOBA
PvP in BC was superior to vanilla. PvP in vanilla relied too heavily on gear. MOBAs didn't even exist outside of WC3 DoTA at the time either.
>Removes faction specific content
Giving paladins to horde and shamans to alliance was an important balancing change. Racials and race-specific class abilities were still very important.
>Retcons story to appeal to Asian market
Not really. I'll need specific examples, because this wasn't an issue.

Class homogenization didn't start until Wrath. Raid content in BC was so focused on group composition because they hadn't homogenized the classes.

>introduced resilience, arena, flying mounts, welfare epics, sweeping nerfs to content, dailies
>"GUYS BC WAS AMAZING."

...

Daily reminder that Heroic Cataclysm had the best dungeons in WoW history pre-nerf and would've been a great expansion if Dragon Soul wasn't so shitty and didn't last 12 years

Basically. Honestly, Mythic is supposed to be the semi-hardcore content, but EN was piss easy and now NH is tuned around 54 traits and at least one BiS legendary item.

I could clear a full NH heroic with my eyes shut with no problems, but mythic is like slamming your face into a wall. There's in middle ground.

Also doesn't help that as a frost DK, my first legendary item was in unholy, then I pulled prydaz, and my third is the literally fucking useless after 4 piece+convergance Empower rune ring. By the time I quit, I was so fucking done it wasn't even funny. the other frost DK in my raid who I dominated head and shoulders over in EN pulled double BiS legos, while I had fuckall. he ended up doing some 300k more dps than me on most fights cause of it.

Faction locking classes is fucking bullshit and ends up breaking the game from a balance standpoint. I get where you're coming from and agree that it somewhat homogenizes the game, but when you have shit like Windfury Totem and Bloodlust, you can't faction lock it. It creates fundamental unbalance that cannot be solved through numbers tuning.

The pros of faction locking don't outweigh the cons.

>Heroic catacylsm had the best dungeons
>They're litterally postBC tier
>no relevant quests
>no exploration
>no rare spawns
>no branching paths
>just boss rushes ala BC design

No

>Needed a warlock in a particular spec to tank Illidan during one of his phases so you would port him to a capital to respec and summon back

Shit like this I actually liked. Especially since it was later found you could tank him another way it was just harder so it let players adjust for their own challenges.

Reminder that Cataclysm PVP sucked thanks to RMP

Whats really dumb is that the mythic raiding 'scene' is vanilla naxx tier in terms of participation

More people cleared vanilla naxx then even step foot into Mythic raids.

Blizzard doesn't seem to understand that what people enjoy most is a sense of progression, but pandering to the mythic scene and designing the game around the normal-heroic-mythic progression only creates a jaded, and bored playerbase, which is why people have been quitting by the millions each year.

Jeff Kaplan said it himself "the world feels bigger when there is undefeated content, and there is a community pride when the top guild on a server finally clears something, even if you yourself are still leveling up in STV"

Then what's the point of having factions?

>dungeon finder
the end of mmo community

>STV
>Spend days trying to not die to gain some levels
>Killing other players closer in level while they're recovering from blowing up jungle cats
>Can watch high level players fight in the arena and eventually turn on the crowd
>Friendships were made across factions with all this

Community is all I care about in MMOs and none have one any more.

Raiding is currently the best it's ever been in WoW

>lmao legionbaby
I know far more about what I'm talking about than you ever will.

It could have been perfect if they stopped at MoP.

The only thing that matters about dungeons is boss fights and Cata dungeons had some of the best boss mechanics ever in the series, sure shit like BRD was cool the first time you did it but taking 6 gorillion hours to do one dungeon with basic fights multiple times isn't fun

you're just senile, old man, can't even remember the good days because you've played far too much

I'm fine with mythic raiding being exclusive.

I also think the one thing Blizz nailed with legion IS character progression. There's always something benificial for your character to do with your playtime. The issue is, when you get into hardcore levels of play, there is far far too much to do. Honestly, I dont think it's ever taken more time required to raid hardcore than it does now.

I think that a 1-2-3 raiding style is ideal, as opposed to raid 1 easy, raid 1 normal, raid 1 hard like it is now. But I ultimately don't mind if the external things playing into it work.

Flavor. Dictating game mechanics on an arbitrary red vs blue isn't good game design. It's impossible to really balance unless the classes are effective mirrors, kinda like how Warhammer did it back in the day.

How in a million years can you justify faction locking a spell like Bloodlust?

This is a fact, the only problem with it is external factors. AP and Legendary items. The content is absolutely fantastic.

>stopping
there are no brakes on this rape train. the game you see when it "stops" will not be recognizable to people who played it before

You've cracked it. You figured it out. Riot, Blizzard, and every other big game big name company should really think about what the fuck you just wrote.

It's in the name really. "MMO." Massively MULTIPLAYER online game. They try so hard to create a world that caters to every little kiddie want, to really rake in that cash, that they forget the important element of any multiplayer game - the community. The people make the game. The game world should be a means to improve the interpersonal experience, not an end unto itself.

A great MMO is one where you can play pretend with others in an imaginary world.

God i cant even read a old-wow thread without something in my chest aching and hurting. Specially when thinking about hunting in cat form in old barrens.

Anybody else fells it?

>Decide to fall for the Private server meme 2 days ago
>Actually having a great time
>Whenever I rage quit from it and decide to launch retail I dabble in it for 2 minutes and log back onto the private server


Retail is just so fucking awful holy shit I LITERALLY just log in and log out immidately and remember why I hate it so fucking much now,

There is 0 sense of progression and gear is replaced in 2 hours rather in vanilla its replaced in 2 days or weeks.

Play on a private server. shit's great fun. I'm the dragonkiller in the thread and I've been leveling a paladin on a 3.3.5 server. Super fun. Game was far better then than it is today.

what server?

>when the barrens was a chat room
>chuck norris chat past 1AM
>defending against ally raiders at crossroads just before bed

>Flavor.

lol

>Dictating game mechanics on an arbitrary red vs blue isn't good game design.

Yeah it is. You want competition. People were loyal to their faction and it added to the game experience as a whole.

>It's impossible to really balance unless the classes are effective mirrors

So make them trump each other. One does one thing well that the other cannot do as well. It's basic shit.

Elysium. Its gonna die soon I'm sure of it but I'm really enjoying the leveling experience rather then just grinding dungeons in Retail.

>Legion
>Progression
>you can see all the content there is available in less then a week of casual play

Time gating quests isn't progression, recycling content and slapping more numbers to the gear isn't progression, RNG loot upgrades isn't progression.

Finally beating Nefarian as a guild, that was progression, clearing that one boss you were stuck on for months, that was progression, getting your guild geared and ready for the next boss, that was progression.

Farming a treadmill endlessly isn't progression, thats why its called the treadmill, you can grind all day and go nowhere.

I can't fall for the private server memes anymore after all of the moves that have happened in the past year.

From Nost to Kronos to K2 to Nost 2 too many restarting characters for no reason. I would've preferred the community to stay on K2 honestly, it wasn't great but at least they banned chinese people

>It could have been perfect if they never made MoP
ftfy.

Only MoP babies thought this generic gook cashgrab was "good"

>Endless South Shore shit flinging between factions
>Spend days just taking towns back from one another
>Players of any level participated

Again it's a player driven thing that caused the community to be closer and feel more open. Now you just sit in your instanced box and wait for a healer.

raidfags will tell you otherwise

I thankfully didn't progress to far in nost/kronos because I had a strong feeling by the time Nost reached its "popularity" it was going to INEVITABLY be shutdown. Also hearing all the shady shit they were doing with gooks turned me off from the server. Kronos was just waaaay to laggy.

The raids were shit though
>But muh muh TOT
TOT wasn't even that good, it just wasn't as bad as SOO or HOF

MoP had some of the best high end content in the series and the best class designs, casual retards who play the game for the story are still butthurt to this day

1 silver and 25 copper have been deposited into your account

K2 had decent ping before their servers died or something for like two weeks and they had to move them somewhere else, wherever they moved it to added a ton of lag for everyone.

BC is when my interest in the game began waning the most.

>token epics
>arenas
>essentially free pvp epics for just participating
>25 < 40 man raids
>daily quest grinds
>neutral city
>unique faction classes crossed over
>eye of the storm BG was horrendously ugly and lazy

BC started what everybody complains about now with present day WoW. With every subsequent expansion they just turned the dial up higher and higher. People claim that BC was the greatest era of WoW because that's around the time that the game's population began skyrocketing and those dumb celebrity commercials/south park episode began running. A lot people were introduced to WoW during BC, hence - they don't know any better and think it was the greatest MMO ever created.

Why did Elysium die so hard? Nost was at its popularity peak after over a year being up and yet this one has lost half its daily population in a few months.

>>daily quest grinds
>>neutral city
these are literally the only bad things though.

Token epics were just for sets, and 40 man raids are a massive cluster fuck and you almost never got gear.

The private server meme is ending.

People are starting to realise that leveling to 60 every time a new server pops up isn't all that fun.

Okay, so how do you justify faction locking Bloodlust?

That's the vibe I got as well. So much drama floating around. I do think it won't ever hard die, but it's seeing a huge population dip.

By progression I mean it has repeatable content that offers you legitimate rewards that scale based on the level of content you play.

You run into problems when you treat low levels of raiding like Raids of vanilla. The only legitimate forms of dungeons and raids are Mythic raids any Mythic+15 dungeons. All the others aren't rewarding enough to bother with. If you consider them the acual form of the content, i think the problem is in the viewer, not the creator.

I think the likes of LFR and RDF, and how they forced the game to be an undertuned shitmess for most players is a massive problem if you don't know what kind of content you're looking for.

The good thing about the system they have is that you can push yourself as hard as you want to push yourself, and generally speaking, you get rewarded for the effort you put in. The flaws are massive exceptions in Legendary items and titanforges.

I'm in the camp that if you bitch and moan about how easy base level dungeons and LFR are, and how you can see all the content within a week of buying the game, without trying the harder difficulty levels, you are the problem.

I recently played a WoW trial up to level 20 - which took about 2 days to reach - and I was a bit heartbroken to see orgrimmar completely empty. I was even more saddened to see no dueling outside the front gates, to have never seen any alliance in the barrens, and for the only other players I saw being cross realmers that I would never see or interact with again, which really just made things feel more abandoned
barrens chat was empty, of course
the pre-cata mmo where the players were the main content- that just doesn't exist anymore. neither world of warcraft nor any other mmo offers that. because these games are more business than game by necessity, I doubt this will ever be fixed for traditional everquest-like mmos such as WoW. you can still get that feeling in other games, like planetside 2, but it's only partly the same

>theme park MMO
>perfect

It's unfortunate that there is no game like that anymore. I remember running to the Scarlett Monastery with a group and having to battle our way through horde to get into the dungeon.I remember fighting over creeps in STV.

Shit sucks

Nost only had one option for a server for almost it's entire life so people had one choice until they made the PvE server around the end and at that point most people didn't feel like moving. Elysium opened like four at the very beginning pretty much.

Plus that and people are just bored of leveling to 60 for like the 5th time in the past few months just to start MC and BWL progression only to have everyone quit and jump to another server for more MC and BWL.

The Sunwell Raid release set the tone for every thing you guys bitch about these days.

>Welfare epics for doing heroics.
>Daily quest eternal grinding zone.
>Raid that was highly overtuned setting the pace of making everything "more accessible" in the future.
> Same raid showed a critical flaw in the class balancing for PVE as well, granted having more than one working spec was nice, just not welcome.

Each iteration/expansion of WoW had something really god damn stupid in it for everyone:

> Vanilla
> Hey, just be happy you have one functioning spec and deal with it m8.

> BC
> Oh hey everyone, remember how you liked raiding with your friends this Xpac? Well fuck you, here's a massively overtuned raid that will force you to siphon other guilds of their warlocks and shamans with nary of a fuck to be had. Also, pretty much mandatory leatherworking. Enjoy.

> WotLK
> Oh... uhm... IC isn't ready yet. Here! Let's give you ONE ROOM FARM! THE RAID.

> Cata
> Loot pinata finale. Also. GREEN JESUS IS HERE.

> Mists
> 1 Year of Siege of Orgrimmar

> WoD
> OrcsorcsorcsorcsorcsorcsorcsDEMONSorcsorcsorcsDemon. Green Jesus. Again.

>I was a bit heartbroken to see orgrimmar completely empty. I was even more saddened to see no dueling outside the front gates

Were you on a New Player server? If so then no shit. Orgrimmar on Illidan is always packed to the brim even in Legion with people dueling outside

>Perfect expacs don't exi-

WoD > Everything

My problem is that they made everything but the newest content obsolete. People used to be in different areas (because they were different levels or doing different raids). Then they made leveling a joke so everyone was supposed to be max level. Then they introduced the badge system so that everyone got rushed into playing the different difficulty levels of the latest raid.

some people didn't play the game to "just get gear so I can access getting more gear to access getting more gear to access getting more gear"

Some people played because it was fun to collaborate on an epic scale to accomplishment something. It was challenging, not because someone wasn't pin perfect at jumping away or timing an interrupt - but because you and 39 other people managed to work together to achieve something.

And token epics WERE NOT just for set items. In BC they introduced vendor epics, which were the 5 man instance tokens that you used to purchase dungeon epics that prepared you for raids (somewhat). So again, instead of trying to craft something, grinding a rep for a faction to fill some spots in your gear gap, or maybe run a 10 or 15 man dungeon to work on your blue set, or build up enough wealth to purchase a couple BoEs (ie: options) - you're just systematically grinding dungeons to get tokens that you just spend at some vendor in town to get ready for raids.

Giving out weekly epics was fucking stupid and cheapened the experience of working towards them. The only thing you could do is to perform better at arenas or grind a couple more dungeons to simply speed up your weekly epics, but at the end of the day you always knew you were gettin yo PURPS!

Why can't you have both? You can have a varied dungeon with multiple layers while also having good fights. BRD was a dark iron dwarf city, then compare it to anhkerub, etc. You have 5 hallways representing what is supposed to be an entire area.

but badges were in tbc

>You run into problems when you treat low levels of raiding like Raids of vanilla. The only legitimate forms of dungeons and raids are Mythic raids any Mythic+15 dungeons. All the others aren't rewarding enough to bother with. If you consider them the acual form of the content, i think the problem is in the viewer, not the creator.

Good thing less people participate in mythic raids then cleared vanilla Naxx

And again, repeatable content = treadmill, not progression.

And mythic raiding is recycled content to boot, you're progressing into the same content, which spoils the entire system, and the gear itself isn't worth a fuck because your 'progression' is effectively reset to 0 next patch because welfare/heroic gear is either on par, or better then what you've gotten

There is a reason why WOW's end game content is now time gated, its because there is no progression.

I'm talking about the Ulduar badges. Justice badges were slower and gave you less stuff.

I want to impregnate a Night Elf

The best roleplay I had was during TBC.

Badges in TBC weren't a bad system until sunwell gave teir 6 quality gear for farming karazhan.

It let you fill slots that weren't dropping, but were not as good as real raid gear until sunwell came along.

The majority of your preraid gearing was still done via tradeskills or trading.

what the FUCK equipment is that

link NOW you piece of shit because I don ot believe for ONE second that this is real

tbc badges just got you some shitty epics, not tier/raid level gear like they did later.

>he doesn't know about all the WoW slutmods

only the later patches.

even Troxed shat on them.


"I'M DOING HEROICS SO I SHOULD HAVE GEAR JUST AS GOOD AS GUILDS CLEARING BLACK TEMPLE~"

>user's extremely fucking retarded episode 2 the phantom boogaloo

No shit it's not real retard. It's a body mod as well

Being at 10k+ all the time wasn't good so they opened more servers.

I wont argue that the multiple difficulty levels are a bad thing. I think you're fucking retarded if you think that there isn't any form of endgame progression after LFR.

Retail mythic raiding is the hardest and best raiding content Blizz has ever released. This is someing from someone who quit and is playing on private servers. I've played just about every raid tier since wrath came out, and I'm progging on vanilla right now.

>repeatable content is a treadmill
So what, the entire game since TBC has repeated content. Only difference now is that there's a reasonable dificulty slider. There's not a lack of content in legion.

Your whole view of 'the content is content regardless of dificulty' is like saying Dark Souls would be Dark souls if it had a handholding mode. It's not rational.

I legitimately love Legion. I know people hate the legendary system but it gives me an excuse to keep running things on my main that I otherwise would have forgotten about.

Removing progression was a fucking mistake. And it doesn't even make sense. If people had to work to even get to the last raid tier they would never complain about long stretches without new content (the absolute top guilds would but still)

BC wasn't perfect but it definitely did a lot right

but you do have to work hard to clear mythic... There's an unbelievable amount of content progression to be had.

...

>Okay, so how do you justify faction locking Bloodlust?

Same way I justify bubblehearthing. But to my mind that's besides the point. Bloodlust was a broken regardless and shouldn't have been implemented in the game to begin with.

>recycled content
>content progression

>wow, I can't wait to get good enough to get to Black Temple
>wow, I can't wait to get good enough to do the same raid with bells and whistles
If you think these are the same you're autistic, especially when it means they make the earlier raids obsolete for no reason. That's wasted development time.

It was probably the most fun I had playing the game, but I wouldn't be able to do it today.

The grind was too real.

"getting good" back then was how much time you had to grind.

Skill was a non-factor unless you wanted world firsts.

There's no point arguing with you any more after this post.

The fact that Mythic is at the end of a chain of insanely repetitive content has caused a problem that real raiders struggle with.

No one is interested in Mythic raiding except the most hardcore, but you still need 19 other people to fill enough slots to actually clear this content.

And the mythic raiding scene was already small as fuck, less then 2% of the playerbase participates in Mythic Raids, and Mythic raiding offers no benefits to players what so ever, the content is the same, the gear is pointless, and in a year everyone will be able to get the transmogs anyway when the next expansion hits.

Because Mythic raids offer nothing other then difficulty its pretty much impossible to recruit for

>Played during Base, TBC, WotLK, MoP, WoD. Have not played Legion, skipped Cata.
>MoP was the most fun I had with the game by far.
>Inspired setting.
>Fun dungeons.
>Great art style.
>Interesting new enemies.
>Got fucked up cause of ORCS ORCS ORCS again.
>Raid Garrosh for a FULL YEAR, then an entire xpac of ORCS.
>Yet everyone shits on MoP.

At least people agree Warlords sucked shit.

Skill has never ever been a part of WOW's PVE end game.

Its always been about gearing up and beating a DPS timer, especially in this day where there are mods to play the game for you, PTR spoils entire raids before they're even launched, and at is worse, benching classes that aren't able to push your DPS past the required level in order to bypass the number one mechanic in end game raiding, enrage timers, everything else is arbitrary.

>he isn't playing the master class

Care to explain yourselves?

>that feel when I haven't really had any issue with raid design or endgame content because I spend my time ERPing

Check out the Hellground TBC private server, it just relaunched like 2 weeks ago. There is 2x exp rates, and I was able to get a couple characters to level 20 in 1 day. Its pretty good if you want to fill some TBC nostalgia desires.

We also have a /tbcg/ general on /vg/ for all the info you need.

>user shut the fuck up and come play legion with me

>doing the same raids over and over again just on different difficulty levels
>CONTENT progression

Basically this

Especially with vanilla 1x rates. People have really started to remember why it sucked to begin with. Leveling a single character to 60 alone takes ages, and that's assuming you don't have a life outside of the game. And it's all for a server that you don't know will actually survive.

>it's recycled when it's the content in it's intended form
>implying LFR, normal, and heroic aren't recycled
LFR, normal, and heroic are for idiots and farming. Mythic is the only raiding worth doing. A lot of the fights are so different between heroic and mythic that they require entirely new strategies and completion methods. Mythic is the intended design.

But it exists and therefore it must be considered.

so you think bubblehearthing is on the same page as bloodlust? A raidwide 30% haste buff for 40 seconds is as valuble as a 'haha i'm taking my ball and going home' button? In a PvE or PvP setting?

I don't defend anything but the raid content itself. The grinds are bullshit. I'm just saying, if you want the rewarding experience of progression through hard content, the game still caters to you. It's just a little bit of an ass to find a progression path, and I dont think many people have even tried to get into it to experience it for themselves. They midnlessly parot 'WoW has no rewarding or progressive content anymore, you can clear the raid in a week'. The content they want isn't LFR, it's either heroic or mythic.

but that's Utgarde Keep and I want to fuck you

sauce?

>warrior in DK class armor set

you're funny

not only am i playing the master class, i'm also playing the master race