SC2 comes out

>SC2 comes out
>improves on all the bugs and stupid design options in SC1
>makes key bindings quicker and more intuitive
>SC1 competitive babies cry about it
>waa waa skill ceiling lower now
>waa waa players dont have to move their fingers autistically over their keyboards
>waa waa it's a mental game over a physical game now

E sports are killing video games

there are legitimate criticisms about SC 2 balancing but crying because they made the game physically easier to play is literal retardation

I actually think the easier to use mechanics shows what a shallow game it was to begin with and that most of the skill came from maneuvering the bad controls

Discuss

Here's a (you) my man, you need it more than i

whats wrong with what i said famalam

>skill ceiling lower now
A valid complaint

i dont know how they managed to make a game where every unit has a shitload of killing power, but at the same time they all feel underwhelming and weak

If they added an option to select all army units in sc remastered, that would be great

But since Blizzard are such scared lil cucks, I bet they won't.

But one of the bigger complaints associated with SC2 is exactly the A-move deathball vs. deathball. And it got bad enough to the point where the casters started being amazed at any little bit of micro they saw because none of it was actually needed to win games.

Alright, ill bite

>improves on all the bugs and stupid design options in SC1

Except, you know, indroducing hard counters which were abscent in BW

>waa waa players dont have to move their fingers autistically over their keyboards

So,nothing basically changed?

>the easier to use mechanics shows what a shallow game it was to begin with and that most of the skill came from maneuvering the bad controls

Every single game that gained competitive traction naturally(not like LeL or every single nu-bliz game) is based on very rudimentary mecanics and unintentional bugs: arena shooters, fightan, dota.

The retarded 12 unit restriction shows who can better navigate big scirmishes and prevents borring fucking blobs. Retarded ai punishes poeple who just want to a-click etc. There is nothing wrong with the source of those interactions by itself. The fact that blizzard can only make great games accidently really fires some neurons

>I actually think the easier to use mechanics shows what a shallow game it was to begin with and that most of the skill came from maneuvering the bad controls

starcraft 2 is an entirely different game with different units and mechanics, you can't compare the two

how would that be great? it would completely ruin the balance
>make 20 mutalisks
>win

op posts a shit thread
i sage it and tell him to fuck off back to Sup Forums becomes marginally better

whens the f2p version due out, i currently have the ptr version

the technical imperfections of sc1 made micro a valid skill to learn. The units can't move smoothly over terrain unless you've practiced moving them. This means that players like flash and bisu have units that can 10v50 your units because they're more organized.
In sc2 all units move and attack the same way for both pros and casuals so the skill ceiling is lowered.
I don't know if making a game harder to play means it's a good game but right now it is. Brood war is better than sc2

>games that have no bugs and flawless AI are bad games
I want to ask Einstein why this is so.

does this mean that everyone should start making games in a sloppy way so that there's bugs and shitty AI?

>People give a fuck about esports in current year

lmfao

shut up consolecuck

No casuals like you are killing games

You can meme all you want, but those limitations can be mitigated by experienced players and skill in overcomming them very cleary visible by teh spectatorsm which makes the game ten times more entertaining to watch than Star Blobs 2.

AGAIN, you fucking memer, its obvious that all above is pure occasional luck and blizzard clearly were not planning for any of that.

SC2 is a far superior game. Micromanagement is just as important in SC1 if not more. The armor and attack types make things more interesting.

It is only a vocal minor of "SC1 elitist" that hate SC2 because they cannot smash "normies" and actually have to think not click and smash their keyboard around like a crack baby.

>The armor and attack types make things more interesting

Those exist in both games

Only South Korea actually care about BW though. The remaster won't kill SC2 or anything, it'll just be played by the same old gooks who still play BW.

> I actually think the easier to use mechanics shows what a shallow game it was to begin with and that most of the skill came from maneuvering the bad controls

Yes, but combined with the spells available it hit a sweet spot where amazing micro and crazy strategies both could shine. People loved the result, not the means by which they got there. What is damning for SC2 is that nobody likes to play or watch Macro Matches and Micro is superfluid because macroing is just too strong.

If Blizzard actually knew what they were doing they'd have
>massively improved the damage output of casters in SC2 and not put in micro-unfriendly abilities like fungal, so you have micro intensive army killers again
>reduced the ability to macro and boom so hard (reducing resource input, not having 20 billion expansions one each map, but rather 2 or 3 and some "half" expansions, having those expansions more exposed)
>not giving everybody a free ramp to autistically wall in
>cutting out fucking macro abilities that do nothing but have you jump through hoops for extra income because fuck interacting with your enemy and generally slightly increase unit production timers.

to focus on the micro while keeping the quality of life improvements.

>Micromanagement is just as important in SC1 if not more
Look at how many Actions pros use on army and how many they use on macro. Compare to SC1.

Starcraft 2 = Whoever spams more units faster wins

I'm just curious, have you actually played sc2? if yes what league did you reach?

I'm diamond and sometimes with better micro depending on the situation a smaller army can still win

I watched a SC2 game yesterday (zest vs classic), the first one I've watched since like 2011, and it was still early harassment into getting to 200/200 into blob vs blob

Also macro is barely non-existent when you can simply but all your buildings and queue them so easily. I mean it's just 1 thing , sc2 was a shit game for a whole bunch more but fucking up the macro and making micro so shitty was one of them.

>Except, you know, indroducing hard counters which were abscent in BW

There are hard counters on bw aswell, tanks do less damage to zealots, dragoons do less damage to marines, etc.

Based on what?

>There are hard counters on bw aswell, tanks do less damage to zealots, dragoons do less damage to marines, etc.
those are not hard counters you can still destroy Zealots with tanks or Marines with Dragoons if you use micro.

>But one of the bigger complaints associated with SC2 is exactly the A-move deathball vs. deathball

That has nothing to do with the all-select mechanic and everything to do with sloppy unit design

Prove me wrong

>There are hard counters on bw aswell, tanks do less damage to zealots, dragoons do less damage to marines, etc.

And now compare that to the old immortal vs siege tank.

it's more related to pathing than either of those, not unit design.

Just give up man you are talking with a legit nu-troll who doesn't understand the nuances and benefits of playing older games with limited- sometimes outright janky- systems.

You are correct though all the most natural-developed competitive games have a nature to them wherein players are able to constantly discover new ways to break it. People are still discovering new combos in Street Fighter II and new meta in UMvC3. Hell even Melee has new shit at least once a year.

Games with a finely lacquered veneer are boring because there's nothing to explore or practice past the most simple and mind-numbing tasks.

>the pathing is too good

Everything to do with unit design and nothing to do with mechanics.

Hey, why not introduce different types of terrain that throttle certain units etc?

Making the controls and AI intentionally bad to make it harder to play is the definition of ARTIFICIAL DIFFICULTY

>nu games dont have enough bugs to exploit

You are literally retarded

No, the problem is that some modern games are poorly designed and don't give enough freedom to the player to discover new techniques etc

New Dota is definitely better than old Dota and improves on a lot of the pathing mechanics etc

That's because it has good rules, a lot of variation and provides a lot of player freedom to mix up different strategies

BTW this was me: I take back my retarded comment. it wasn't a fair post and I apologize

>The armor and attack types make things more interesting.

Literally the same thing as in SC1 but wasn't stated on the tooltips for casuals to read.
Vultures have 20 damage but only did 5 damage to armored units. Full 20 damage to bio/shields.
Dragoons have 20 damage but only did 10 damage to Bio units.
Hydralisks did something like 5 damage but had 10 damage on tooltip.

esports is a meme

wish it wouldn't exist

But BW's jankiness is exactly what made control of it so interesting and fun to watch.

Units in BW are huge and don't always group up together well. This forces players to be creative and precise in how they move and group them. I'm not saying this has to be in later games in the series, but it certainly is something to consider when you are wanting to make a game that engages the player.

Games that are easy to pick up may be more accessible and easier to follow, but I find their appeal quickly wears for me personally just because their depth is literally that of a puddle.

Look at Rising Thunder. That game was made because people claim they hate practicing special move inputs in fighting games (all specials are on single buttons with cooldowns). Well guess what? All those complainers (and the game's entire fanbase) disappeared overnight after the game was dropped because it was so fucking boring. People got exactly what they thought they wanted and they hated it.

Same reason I stopped watching SC2 and still occasionally watch BW matches. BW matches have dynamic unit placement because it is necessary. These algorithms in 2 may help make pathing better but it leads to these huge chaotic deathballs that are just a fucking mess and are neither interesting to watch nor listen to people commentate on.

Did you play Rising Thunder? It was a bad game no matter how you slice it. Melee is a much more successful at being a fighter with easy "special move inputs". In that respect, your example isn't sufficient.

I disagree with your premise that janky mechanics make for interesting gameplay. A game doesn't need janky mechancis to have depth. A game needs proper rules to have depth.

Death ball is a thing because the rules of SC 2 are not sufficient or versatile enough. Why not have collision detection between units so they can't all hug each other and create a mass unit blob? What about differing unit speeds? What about terrain that affects certain unit movement? What about more effective unit specials? What about less lock-on attacks and more attacks that require precise cursor aiming and dodging?

These are all rules that can improve depth without sacrificing good mechanics and controls.

The premise that janky mechanics and bugs make for a deep game is fundamentally flawed.

Also, why is Dota 2 a much more successful game than Dota 1? Dota 2 eliminated the janky mechanics of the Warcraft mod

Maybe I have reading problems but SC2 has literally everything you said except different terrain that affects unit movement

>Melee

Melee is one of the most broke games out there. It's meta literally revolves around an unlisted bug that Nintendo left in there because they thought no one would make good use of it (wavedashing). Your example is actually bad for your case because it support my assertion and is also a very good game.

And that assertion by the way is not that "games have to be janky to be good". I never said that. I only gave example where jankiness was helpful to depth. Overall, depth comes from a system wherein it takes time for all aspects of it to be fully explored. Devil May Cry 3 is not janky but is very deep.

Here's what I actually said:

>the nuances and benefits of playing older games with limited- sometimes outright janky- systems

You see here, jank is not required, but a lot of good games have really janky controls that people worked around to help discover the game's natural depth.

melee is not a fighting game, melee is also only popular because it has nintendo characters, just look at stuff like brawlhala no one plays it

Melee's movement input is much more complex than it's attack input.

You could even make the argument that A (regular) attacks are more complex than special (B) attacks because you can control their power and the direction that they come out in. For instance, Mario's F-tilt can be angled up, down, or horizontal for different situations to anti-air, mid-range poke, or edge guard. His forward smash can also be directionally influenced. To be fair, I find this to be as complex if not moreso than your average street fighter style inputs especially wrt how they must be used in conjunction with good movement.


I prefer traditional fighting games but even I have to give respect to people who have their SHFFL down because that shit is very very hard on the hands.

>retained fucking turn rates

>you can still destroy Zealots with tanks

none of it matters anyway, since SC and MOBA's have killed the RTS genre all together

that's just RTS in general, being efficient with money spending means that at any given moment you have the largest force possible

Melee is the exact opposite of Thunder

Thunder was all brains no skill, and melee is no brains all skill

Also melee is love-hate in the fgc, like MvC

It's sort of what makes Brood War feel so balanced though. Think about it, why would a game from 1998 not designed with competitive gaming in mind at all be balanced? It's because you can always win in Brood War due to your superior mastery of the games controls, while that makes it harder to get into, it makes it so that players rarely feel hopeless, that there is very little they can do against a certain race or strategy, because they can always master the controls better.

You have a point but there was some nuance in unit control that was removed. I am not talking about the control group size or anything like that, i am talking about the way the units moved, the acceleration of movement etc. etc. that was removed from SC2 which made it harder to control multiple units at the same time.
Look at how they had to back peddle on the mutalisk control because they controlled like cancer previously.

i dont even play esports coz everyone feels like tryhard assfaggot and even more so if they are NOT PROS

So you have noobs calling noobs noobs and other flaming coz everyone expects to play it like its a work and suddenly all i can think is this is BORING and NOT FUN AT ALL.

Reminder that we got into games coz it was fun and esports is about making it feel like work and grind much as possible. Nobody wants that, OP´s right about it causing death to vidyas

with non esports i feel like im getting along with my friends
with "e-sports", we are stressed out and almost arguing about everything especially if someone fucks up in what was supposed to be a fun game

>melee
>Skill
>melee
>Part of the FGC

>muh deathballs
literally the shittiest argument, there are so many tools in the game that allow players to punish a-moving it's silly, so if anyone get's killed by a-move they deserve it for being shit at the game
there is nothing wrong with a-move, it's the ultimate BM
>i don't even have to use my hands to beat you

t. camper faggot
kys

>It's meta literally revolves around an unlisted bug that Nintendo left in there because they thought no one would make good use of
It doesn't change the fact that it has massive casual appeal to a playerbase who likely won't perform a single wavedash in their entire life. As much as it's a meme and a kiddy game, it's still one of the best examples of 'simple to learn, hard to master' that's also fun to boot.

nice argument cockmuncher

>in between 2nd-3rd most viewed game at multi-game events
>most game are won by overwhelming your opponent with jank moment

Yep, totaly not part of the FGC or skillful in any way

>I find this to be as complex if not moreso than your average street fighter style inputs especially wrt how they must be used in conjunction with good movement.

not even suprised that first thing a camper thinks of with a reply is dicks
told you you´re a fag

Thread about Starcraft but Somehow butthurt SFV fans find a way to moan about Smash Bros even though Ryu jumped ship to smash because SFV was shit and a financial flop.

>projecting this much
salty bwbabby

>The premise that janky mechanics and bugs make for a deep game is fundamentally flawed.

Well, yes, but janky mechanics and bugs CAN make for a deep game, just like how intricately crafted gameplay CAN make for a deep game. The difference is that with janky controls it's up to fortune smiling on the developer.

In BWs case Blizzard was lucky, that's why the game is so good.

I agree with you but I think it's different with 1v1 games like Starcraft.

>Reminder that we got into games coz it was fun and esports is about making it feel like work and grind much as possible
git gud

i classify smash and games like dbz tenkaichi/xenoverse under their own shit, separate from side by side fighters like MK, SF, etc

>SFV was shit and a financial flop
Was it really though? The game obviously sold like shit, but it was clearly made on a shoestring budget. The competitive scene also seems to be doing alright.

fuck you

Protoss has been broken since the start with their deathball bullshit and 1 base power.

Meanwhile Zerg finds a counter with infestors and Blizzard nerfs them instead of making Protoss come up with a solution.

Its not even Protoss players fault either, Blizzard babied Protoss because they had to rework a fuckton of their units to work with SC2, and then they basically removed the need for shit like archons.

BW worked because it was a broken mess that eventually evened itself out in the Meta. Players were allowed to adapt over years and figure out builds and proper styles of play.

SC2 decided to just throw everyone at the game for a week and mass patch and balance on the fly, leaving them incontrol of the Meta and not the players/pros. Also early on they tried to balance for the lower level players and that fucked everything up.

i really love this post

>calling me salty when you´re salty note you not me
nice projection you just use everything true about you as description of others :^)

>E sports are killing video games
but sc2 was clearly an esports game or it wouldn't basically have been a polished remake of sc1

like you look at a game like supcom or coh or something that were released in 2007 and it looks positively futuristic compared to sc2's 2011 release

was BW balanced on release? no, and neither was LotV
and the same way as BW LotV will eventually stop being balance patched and people will be free to do their own thing

I never said a thing about any game's appeal to mass casual audience. Why are you bringing up arguments to things no one said? That's kind of weird and dumb. Street Fighter is played by thousands who will never go to a tournament? So what?

I'm not even a melee fag but good SHFFL is very impressive and precise. 2D fighters have specific stuff too like spacing and timing for safe-jumps and shit like that but it's nowhere near as fluid as the movement decisions made in melee.

I think both are impressive in their own ways. No need to denigrate or demean the other with this pointless tribalism shit.

t. blizzards little slavecuck

slave away your days trying to learn the fantasy games secrets while the normies fuck all the pussies and you´re left there moneyless staring at all the screen "fun", while becoming slowly an outcast of society :^)

Truth teller right here. Bad patching and Protoss was the problem all along.

Back in the good old days you could be certain you were about double the skill level of a toss if you beat him in ladder. They got everything on easymode.

6/10 made me reply multiple times

Have fun realising that after 30 ladies, a pussy is just a pussy after all.

>SC1 has a way better story
>But SC2's missions are far more fun to play.

I'm conflicted.

Missions in the second half of Brood War are too long.

>I'm not even a melee fag but good SHFFL is very impressive and precise. 2D fighters have specific stuff too like spacing and timing for safe-jumps and shit like that but it's nowhere near as fluid as the movement decisions made in melee.
Haha i get it, April fools!

You really had me going for a while there user.

>slave away your days trying to learn the fantasy games secrets

I don't though. I play when I want to and still win, because gitting gud isn't some 20-hour-a-day training course but rather something that happens naturally while playing, and all it requires is a basic amount of intelligence and not being physically disabled enough to hinder you while playing.

Also in the old days of SC2 EVERY FUCKING MATCH WAS A BASERACE

The deathball would start rolling and there was no real way to beat it once you reached a certain point. So essentially you just had to send everything out and hope you killed their production line then starved their resources.

Which again, protoss had insane amount of 1 to 2 base support where Zerg was forced to grab 3-4 with extra hatcherys in order to keep up. It was the dumbest shit ever and Blizzard just kept ignoring it.

LotV is shit now, they start people with like 10 - 12 drones and ruined all openers. Meanwhile the only team who really benefits is Protoss again

>nowhere near as fluid as the movement decisions made in melee.

I'll agree with you there. I also liked the graphics in 1 much better but 2 felt cleaner.

I feel like 2 could had been so much better but they fucked it up.

Have fun realising that after 30 games it´s just a game. nothing more

>I feel like 2 could had been so much better but they fucked it up.
No surprise, Blizzard has no idea what made SC1 good as Blizzard isn't actually good at making video games.

I know people like to think that their favorite thing is clearly the most complex (even if they aren't at a competitive level in it so who cares what they think) but it makes you a better more well-rounded person to recognize the time and effort that are dedicated to different types of games.

Probably because sc2 team had very little to do with original dev. Dustin Browder is a c&c shitter, and dont even get me started on David Kim

How many of SC2's plot points only make sense with knowledge of side stuff like the Stukov missions? A visit of Kerrigan's wiki page says the sudden romance between her and Jim in SC2 was covered in books and shit saying they did a bunch of ops together without the player in episode 1.

>I never said a thing about any game's appeal to mass casual audience
You said that Rising Thunder is an example of a game that caters to a casual's taste for mechanical difficulty, and yet it has no playerbase and people are clearly all talk because a mechanically easy game is actually boring.

Well, smash (really just melee since the rest are trash) is the counterexample. It's as mechanically easy as it gets for people to pickup, and casual players love it.

Has anyone found out the QR code on the head of the Terran dude on the official website.
Or is it just suppose to indicate "upgrade"?

You could tell the game had twelve years to completely lose track of everyone but their most die-hard fans. I remember the forums when WoL launched. There were two types of people commenting. One group asking what the fuck was going on and why was Jim Raynor in love with the alien murder queen, and one group explaining how beautiful and tender it all was if you were the type of sperg lord who read the supplementary fiction.

But everything was terrible about SC2 for me. The writing was some of the WORST I've seen from a video game in years, but the gameplay was a mess too.

They tried to promote micro but adding a ton of tedious macro mechanics like inject and chrono boost, which then made it so the best players were ones who remembered to click the "build units faster" button with better timing.

Everything has a hard counter, but tech progression is uneven, so one race can be sacked by its hard counter before it can tech to the counter of its counter. That led to stale "timing pushes" where attacking at certain times on certain maps maximized the probability of victory because the enemy could not logically have the upper hand in those windows.

The only core infantry unit was the marine. Everyone else got stuck with specialized units that were very good in specific situations, but not able to handle a direct fight. Protoss got blink and anti-armor bonuses but then had to deal with fragility. Zerg got roaches, that couldn't shoot air units and suffered from range problems.

Then there were all the explody weapons. Colossus lasers, banelings, and tank splash obliterated things they countered by the dozens. Blizzard hope it would make a fun "terrible terrible damage" spectacle, but all it really did was encourage players to be more defensive and conservative because a slip up meant losing an asinine number of units. Maybe they might have gone the aggressive route if they had to, but Blizzard insisted on everyone having a highly defensible choke ramp.

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