If you grew up playing 3D Zelda there's a pretty good chance that you've been playing the dungeons wrong for your...

If you grew up playing 3D Zelda there's a pretty good chance that you've been playing the dungeons wrong for your entire life. This is due to the fact that in 3D Zelda, the dungeons are usually more linear and straightforward so that you can brute force puzzles without much consequence. Only occasionally, particularly in a game like Majora's Mask, will you mindlessly wander around for a while going room to room interacting with everything to try to progress.

After playing 2D Zelda for a while and watching a YouTube series that analyzes the dungeons, I realized that the reason dungeons have been some of my least favorite sections of Zelda games is because I was playing them wrong for my entire life, pure and simple.

It's no wonder that the 2D games can leave some people cold, because along with a lesser sense of adventure, the dungeons are slogs unless you actually use your brain.

So anons, I suggest you go play some 2D Zelda games to discover for the first time the greatness of this series. I suggest Link's Awakening first and foremost. Warning: this WILL make you think less of Wind Waker and Breath of the Wild.

fuck off retard

I played through LttP and hated it, there was too much backtracking and none of the dungeons felt distinguished from one-another. Barely any puzzles and the combat was simplistic so I just didn't see the appeal at all in the dungeon designs; that one dungeon that had sections outside was neat, though. BotW's dungeons are far from perfect, but they're easily the most consistent of the franchise in terms of quality throughout, I just wish there were some more of them really.

fuck you!!!!!!!!

>watching a YouTube series
>only certain blocks can be moved once in certain directions
>wow what a great trial and error puzzle

>there was too much backtracking

That's a good thing though, it means you're encouraged to develop a mastery over the space and the challenges are more than a linear series of rooms. Navigation being a puzzle in itself is one of the best things in Zelda dungeon design.

>none of the dungeons felt distinguished from one-another. Barely any puzzles and the combat was simplistic so I just didn't see the appeal at all in the dungeon designs

I'm not sure what you mean by barely any puzzles, there are puzzles all the time. I agree about the combat being simplistic, but the enemy designs and items make it interesting, because you find good and bad ways to approach each enemy, and when there's a room full of different types of enemies and hazards it gets intense.

As for not being distinguished from one another, considering BoTW's dungeons I'm not sure I understand why you'd feel this way. Can you elaborate?

Are you referring to the original Zelda with the block thing? LoZ wasn't really a puzzle game and nobody ever praises it for having good puzzles. It's about discovering secrets, not completing puzzles.

No, I'm actually talking about ALttP, but the original Zelda had the same shit but more predictable so it's not as bad. It's absolute garbage tier and nobody ever mentions how shit the block puzzles are.
>nobody ever praises it for having good puzzles
That's not true. There are lots of people praising the puzzles.

>Navigation being a puzzle in itself is one of the best things in Zelda dungeon design.
I agree, but I feel BotW does this better by taking advantage of the dungeons' moving rooms etc. In LttP, you're going through dungeons that not only lack distinguishing mechanical features, but you'll also be going through their room repeatedly - fighting the enemies as they respawn during the tedious backtracking, just to reach the next room upon obtaining the dungeon item; I'm sorry but that's just boring.

>I'm not sure what you mean by barely any puzzles
About the only puzzles that exist are block-puzzled in LttP, maybe Link's Awaking does this far better. There's also a couple areas I remember where you can drop from an upper floor to reach an otherwise blocked-off room in the floor below (I forget which dungeon this was, they honestly blend together in my memory). There's very little actual puzzles, for the most part you just coast through them figuring out the correct route amongst the several dead-ends they add to make the dungeons feel larger.

ALttP has tonnes more types of puzzles than block puzzles though? There are puzzles involving lighting fires, changing room layouts, dropping from floor to floor, using your hookshot to attach to skulls and whatever, strategic switch pressing to raise and lower obstacles, etc.

________________________________

>I agree, but I feel BotW does this better by taking advantage of the dungeons' moving rooms etc.

I like the moving rooms thing, but every dungeon has the same mechanic and there isn't really much spatial reasoning involved to constitute an actual puzzle, it's usually just a matter of manipulating the dungeon to open up the doors you need to go through which closes doors you don't need to go through.

>In ALttP you're going through dungeons that not only lack distinguishing mechanical features...

I don't think this is true, there are distinguishing mechanical features all over ALttP. For example, the water dungeon challenges you to raise and lower water levels in order to get the hookshot so you can make your own path through unconnected attachable surfaces.

> fighting the enemies as they respawn during the tedious backtracking, just to reach the next room upon obtaining the dungeon item

You don't have to fight the same enemies again and again though, and part of what makes this interesting is the challenge of trying to avoid damage so you're not weak against the boss. So you either risk fighting them or avoiding them, and which option you take depends upon the enemy types and room hazards.

>About the only puzzles that exist are block-puzzled in LttP, maybe Link's Awaking does this far better.

No way, there are WAY more puzzles than block puzzles. You must just not remember them. Link's Awakening does have better dungeons than ALttP though. I think ALttP is pretty good in terms of dungeons, but it's not the best in the series or anything.

>ALttP has tonnes more types of puzzles than block puzzles though?
And how exactly is this an excuse? The block puzzles are still one of the most common ones as far as I remember. Overall I don't see any Zelda game having really interesting puzzles (try to prove otherwise if you dare) and considering how many shit puzzles there are in ALttP I don't see how you can consider 2D Zeldas having better puzzles than 3D in general.

>There are puzzles involving lighting fires [...] using your hookshot to attach to skulls
I'll give you the others, but those are NOT puzzles at all. THere's nothing to solve about it, it's just kind of there. Whilst in BotW, petty crap like that is used for Koroks spread across the overworld to reward a bit of exploration, but in LttP it's a dungeon "puzzle".
>I like the moving rooms thing, but every dungeon has the same mechanic
But that's wrong, each dungeon in BotW has a different mechanic - about the only 2 that are similar are the bird and lizard (since they both tilt the dungeon), but even that isn't the same as the lizard tilts 90 degrees in one direction only, and the bird's wings tilt about 45 degress both directions (and the lizard has a fire theme for most of its puzzles, whilst the bird involves wind currents instead).
>For example, the water dungeon challenges you to raise and lower water levels in order to get the hookshot so you can make your own path through unconnected attachable surfaces.
True, but I found this tedious more than anything, as the solution was obvious but it's like they made it intentionally inconvenient anyway - it'd be the equivalent of the dungeons in BotW only allowed you to manipulate them in a specific area, rather than whenever you like.
>You don't have to fight the same enemies again and again though
No, certain enemies definitely respawned if you went far enough away, this was made worse by the fact that there were dungeons you had to exit in order to fully solving them (and re-entering them would reset the enemies within them).
>No way, there are WAY more puzzles than block puzzles. You must just not remember them.
Probably because none of them are really a puzzle, just navigational problem-solving for the vast majority of it, like dropping down from a floor above to the floor below - I'd hardly call that a "puzzle".

>And how exactly is this an excuse? The block puzzles are still one of the most common ones as far as I remember.

Not really, the most common type of puzzle are navigational ones. ALttP barely even has blocks at all, but it does have statues. I think what you're speaking to is how mechanically complicated the puzzles are, and on that point I would agree. Obviously BoTW and the 3D games in general are more mechanically rich and less like straightforward inventory puzzles.

>considering how many shit puzzles there are in ALttP I don't see how you can consider 2D Zeldas having better puzzles than 3D in general.

There's a lot more to puzzle solving than the richness of the mechanics with which you solve them. Zelda is obviously at its best when there's a combination of the two, which ALttP is not very good at this (the other 2D games are better in this way though), but I don't think mechanical richness trumps the design of the puzzle themselves like you're implying. In a game like OoT you're just going from room to room, having one key at a time, until you can return to the central hub and fight the boss (except in the water temple). It's mindless to the point that the best dungeon in the game (again, the water temple) has an infamous reputation just because it requires you to make sense of the space around you and use your brain a little.

Thanks for the art, the post was bad though.

go home arin

If only to distill it to the "puzzles were trickier in earlier LoZ", I agree. And only a fool wouldn't.

yeah i love the puzzle in link's awakening where you have to know to throw a pot at a door mhm

I'd argue that it depends how it's implemented. Off the top of my head I can't remember the specifics of the fire lighting puzzles, but the hookshot-to-skulls is definitely implemented in such a way that makes it a puzzle, at least in the water dungeon. There's another room I can recall where depending on where you walk, different bits of the floor would disappear, and you had to use your hookshot to find a way around the context sensitive floor bits.

>But that's wrong, each dungeon in BotW has a different mechanic - about the only 2 that are similar are the bird and lizard (since they both tilt the dungeon), but even that isn't the same as the lizard tilts 90 degrees in one direction only, and the bird's wings tilt about 45 degress both directions (and the lizard has a fire theme for most of its puzzles, whilst the bird involves wind currents instead).

It's pretty much the same shit though, you're just opening up sections where you need to go. It would be different if you didn't always have control over manipulating the dungeon, but you do.

>True, but I found this tedious more than anything... it'd be the equivalent of the dungeons in BotW only allowed you to manipulate them in a specific area, rather than whenever you like.

That would improve the dungeons though, and not because it's arbitrarily forcing you to go back and forward, but because it would be creating a new navigational puzzle. You change something in a room far away from you, but it also changes the layout of the dungeon which makes it more challenging to get to the room.

>No, certain enemies definitely respawned if you went far enough away

I meant you can simply avoid them.

>Probably because none of them are really a puzzle, just navigational problem-solving for the vast majority of it, like dropping down from a floor above to the floor below - I'd hardly call that a "puzzle".

I would. Spatial reasoning is the bread and butter of the series.

I've found that dungeons are so different between 2D and 3D Zeldas mostly because in the 2D games everything is faster and the amount of different things that you can interact with is smaller. To add to that, they focus on smaller simpler puzzles for most rooms.

Both styles are good and the debate of which is better is dumb, as it's only personal opinion.

2d zeldas are the definition of linear.

>dungeons have been some of my least favorite sections of Zelda games
Literally why would you play a Zelda game if you didn't like dungeons?

What are you rambling about? I think the block puzzles are shit because there is no visual feedback and therefore they are just trial and error garbage. They aren't difficult, none of the puzzles in Zelda games are and it isn't a series I would play for the "puzzles".
>the most common type of puzzle are navigational ones
I find it highly debatable how many of these could actually be considered puzzles. How many of these actually make you stop for a moment and think about the solution? Most of it is just trivial busywork.
>but I don't think mechanical richness trumps the design of the puzzle themselves
What grand design are you talking about? List three (3) puzzles in ALttP that you consider well designed.

Also link the YouTube series you've been brainwashed by so I can laugh at this garbage.

Why capitalize will like a redditor.

I fucking hate that shit.

Are the Oracle games the same as LA in terms of gameplay? I liked it, but I felt everything was a bit too slow.

>I'd argue that it depends how it's implemented
It's pretty telling that, out of all the dungeons in LttP, you can only recall about 3 worthwhile puzzles (and even then, I don't agree with the water+hookshot and fire-lighting interactions as being "puzzles", it barely constitutes as problem-solving); It's fair to have your own opinion on what you feel makes for a good puzzle in the Zelda series, but I think you're really reaching here honestly.
>It's pretty much the same shit though, you're just opening up sections where you need to go.
I could literally say the same of LttP's "puzzles", as you;re grossly oversimplifying for the sake of defending your confirmation bias. I suspect you haven't even played BotW or its dungeons honestly.
>That would improve the dungeons though
Fuck. No. I do not want hours of unnecessary padding for me to go back to the one room that lets me manipulate the dungeon. It would add absolutely nothing to any of the puzzles in the dungeon, it'd only be there to aggravate the player and prolong playtime. Besides, you have puzzles already within the divine beasts where a move you made to the dungeon will block off a certain area but provide access to another (leaving you to figure out how to, for example, get an object from one side to the other) - you do not need to make the act of altering the dungeon itself tied to a room to achieve those kinds of puzzles.
>I meant you can simply avoid them.
Not always, certain enemies will chase you too quickly to ignore, or fire a projectile to you: The majority is avoidable, but not all of them; it's still annoying and unnecessary.
>I would. Spatial reasoning is the bread and butter of the series.
Well BotW saves its spacial 'puzzles' for the overworld mostly, as the beasts and shrines focus on more traditional puzzle-solving (usually physics-based, though that's not necessarily a bad thing).

>none of the dungeons felt distinguished from one-another

I've never understood this criticism, at most Eastern Palace, Misery Mire, and Thievetown can be called generic, ebery other dungeon has some unique gameplay or aesthetic

Palace of Darkness, half the dungeon rooms are in the dark

Swamp Palace, nearly every room has water in it, an about a third of the dungeon is in deep water

Skull Woods, is the one with many different entrances and going in and out of the dungeon

Even Desert Palace although having no real unique gameplay has a very distinct desert look.

You see my point?

>Also link the YouTube series you've been brainwashed by so I can laugh at this garbage.
he's probably referring to the "Zelda Boss Keys" series by Mark Brown - it's a good series and I generally like the guy and can agree with his opinions, but I'm fairly sure even he acknowledges how different the 2D and 3D games handle their dungeons and puzzle-solving, and by no means did he propose that either method is better (just different). Overall I got the impression that Mark felt that the 2D games go for a more labyrinth-style dungeon design, with less focus on puzzles and more on enemies and the dungeon layout; whilst 3D games go for puzzle focus (usually with gimmicks thrown in, though that doesn't necessarily mean the use of gimmicks is bad) - I think OP is just heavily biased for 2D Zelda, it also seems unlikely to me that he's even played BotW.

>You see my point?
not really, as most of those aspects have little impact on the gameplay; rather, these aspects are used more thematically instead (with the exception of the water dungeon and palace of darkness too, I guess)

Why not just post the boss keys videos

>he's probably referring to the "Zelda Boss Keys" series by Mark Brown - it's a good series and I generally like the guy and can agree with his opinions
Thanks, I'll check it out.
>I think OP is just heavily biased for 2D Zelda
That's the impression I got too.

I'm still happy that he made this thread because at least it's one of the few threads that actually discuss video games.

Sense of adventure, humor, characters, side content, exploration etc.

>How many of these actually make you stop for a moment and think about the solution? Most of it is just trivial busywork.

Most navigational puzzles don't really have an explicit 'solution', they're more about keeping a mental map. Like, in the dungeon in ALttP that's split between the dark world forest and the dungeon itself, your ability to navigate to the main bit in the dark world depends upon keeping track of where the entrances and exits are. It's similar to the water temple in OoT in that way. It's more about mastery over the space than a hidden answer that you have to uncover.

>What grand design are you talking about? List three (3) puzzles in ALttP that you consider well designed.

Pic related are two, but I also like the forest one that's split between the dark world and the dungeon.

>Capitalizing a word so that the reader puts emphasis on it as if it were spoken to him is now trademark of Reddit

Please die, senpai.

Skull Woods multiple entrances definitely has a gameplay effect, Desert Palace I admitted was more aesthetic, but lets keep going

Ice Palace and Turtle have obvious gameplay differences, Ice Palace having icey floors every where and Turtle Rocks use of the cane of somaria as a platform tool

Tower of Hera's unique gameplay mechanic is very subtle its even incorporated in the boss by having multiple floors made falling into a pit more a loss of progress, and designed to knock you into said pits.

One of the actually good puzzles in LTTP is getting the magic cape, its simply dashing into a conspicuous grave, but how you were supposed to know to dash is really smart, that being while its a gravestone in the light world, its a pile of rocks in the dark world, something you've been taught to dash into.

>I could literally say the same of LttP's "puzzles", as you're grossly oversimplifying for the sake of defending your confirmation bias. I suspect you haven't even played BotW or its dungeons honestly.

I mean, yeah, every puzzle can be simplified down to "opening up areas where you need to go" but I hoped you wouldn't take it so literally like that, because obviously half of the puzzles are composed of how to open up the area, and then getting to the area. BoTW is really simplistic like that. I've played 3/4 of BoTW's dungeons, but I don't really care if you doubt that.

>Fuck. No. I do not want hours of unnecessary padding for me to go back to the one room that lets me manipulate the dungeon. It would add absolutely nothing to any of the puzzles in the dungeon, it'd only be there to aggravate the player and prolong playtime. Besides, you have puzzles already within the divine beasts where a move you made to the dungeon will block off a certain area but provide access to another (leaving you to figure out how to, for example, get an object from one side to the other) - you do not need to make the act of altering the dungeon itself tied to a room to achieve those kinds of puzzles.

Out of the 3/4 Divine Beasts I've done, I think I remember one time where I needed to move an object from one side to another after opening up and closing pathways. Or rather, one time where it would've been necessary if I didn't just skip the puzzle by using the bird power to go over the door. That's another thing with BoTW's puzzles, there's usually multiple solutions that feel like cheating. Anyway though, I guess you feel like the water temple in OoT having 'control points' adds nothing except annoying the player and padding the game? How about the Majora's Mask dungeons, most of which feature dungeon wide changes which require 'control points'?

I wouldn't even say I prefer the 2D games over the 3D ones. I just think the 2D ones have better dungeon design, but Majora's Mask has good dungeon design too. Twilight Princess is pretty good as well.

Overall I prefer the 3D games because I like the sense of adventure, the characters, the humor, the music, etc., better. I wouldn't even say the dungeons are good because they're 2D either, but rather most of the 2D games are older and less afraid to be challenging.

>Skull Woods multiple entrances definitely has a gameplay effect
no it doesn't, it's the same as a normal dungeon just that you have to exit it at a couple points. The area you exit to is hardly open so it doesn't really add anything to the dungeon experience. It's a stretch to say that the dungeon itself is unique just because of the dungeon item you get that adds a little bit - by that logic, you could argue any of the dungeons are unique purely due to their use of a specific dungeon item each time (despite how situational the items tend to be, and how blatantly fucking obvious it is that you need to use them); I guess I can agree with ice palace, but it does seem like reaching to me given how common slippery ice mechanics are in vidya overall.

user, if there was a dungeon that was just a linear progression of rooms with an interaction based puzzle in each of them, do you think the dungeon would lose anything?

what do you mean?

>you are playing games wrong because you aren't doing it the same way as me
Fuck off dipshit

Say a Zelda dungeon had the same structure as a Portal game, it's just a series of rooms (1, 2, 3, 4...) with increasing complexity in each room. Do you think the dungeon would be less interesting or the same?

Alright, I understand what you mean now, but I wouldn't really consider these puzzles.
This one is actually a puzzle, thanks.

>Alright, I understand what you mean now, but I wouldn't really consider these puzzles.

Do you think they add anything?

Sure, it's a nice touch. It's obviously better than just making a straight path.

>use your brain
>move blocks
>dee doo doo doo da dee dee di
>door opens

wow, that was clever

>plays 2d Zelda
>I AM THE ULTIMATE PATRICIAN!!!!
fuck off child

Okay, do you think they (the more complicated spaces) can increase the difficulty of a puzzle by becoming another obstacle that you have to contend with to use X on Y?

I think it'd be about the same, as long as the puzzles are decent. Shrines come to mind, as whilst a lot of those are too easy imo, there's some that I felt were excellent with good progression - I wouldn't mind a "full" zelda dungeon like that.

Alright, well have a look at the last dungeon in Link's Awakening (the one where you have to carry around a metal ball and throw it at pillars). I think you'd find it difficult to argue that navigation and spatial reasoning makes the puzzle considerably more challenging.

Not only do you have to flip switches to change the layout of the dungeon, but you have to flip switches at certain places which don't block the path you're trying to get to.

I haven't played Link's Awaking...

Just watch the Boss Keys video on Link's Awakening then. It doesn't matter whether or not you've actually played it, the point is that the spatial reasoning involved inarguably is a huge aspect of the puzzle solving in that dungeon.

This post just reeks of underage and regurgitated opinions.

Also BotW proves that structure is not the end-all be-all. The Divine Beasts are among the best designed dungeons in the series with regards to structure and layout. Every single one has a mechanism that changes the shape of the dungeon and both navigation and indivudal puzzles are pure spatial reasoning and almost nothing else.

But they're still bad dungeons because they're too short and easy. Plenty of dungeons are better in the series that are a linear series of challenges, but since the challenges are interesting, the dungeon is interesting.

it's a shame his Boss Keys video on BotW won't be out for a while (also it just occurred to me that BotW doesn't even have boss keys, so maybe he won't analyse that game in the BK series?)

I don't think BoTW has awful dungeons, I think once you learn to appreciate dungeons generally you'll think less of BoTW because they're not emphasized as heavily.

WW does have shit dungeons though.

This makes no sense.
I grew up with OoT and Majora and I like both 2D and 3D games.
What would an appreciation for the 2D games do to my appreciation of BOTW? BOTW is about exploration and the expansive landscape. Dungeons are such a minor part of the game that it doesn't fucking matter how much "better" the dungeons are in 2D games.
I realize the games in this series generally fit a particular mold, but the fact of the matter is that they all strive for different strengths and end up with different weaknesses.
Judging every game under the same lens is a bit misguided, and it's unrealistic to ever expect a Zelda game that will deliver on every single area people ask for.

That said
>BOTW world
>LA dungeons
>MM sidequests and npcs
>WW items
>TP sword combat
>OoT waifus
>SS item upgrading
Would be the perfect Zelda

I'm willing to just say none of the puzzles are difficult. I hear people talk about this a lot here, and am curious if people actually find them hard.

"I've watched a youtube analysis video and consider myself an expert": the post

I appreciate dungeons just fine, but Zelda has never been about dungeons to me, they're only one aspect of the game. And I like BotW's dungeons because I can appreciate structure, but it proves that there's more to a good dungeon than structure.

WW's dungeons are shit, but that's not because the layout is boring, it's because the puzzles and combat in Wind Waker are insulting.

>WW items
WW didn't have very interesting items, OoT and TP were better in that regard, but I feel like some of the 2D Zeldas have better variety.

I'm going to completely ignore your post and mention how that art is from a Nintendo Power fan art page.

Waker items were all useful in combat, which is why I think it had the best ones.
That said, Wind Waker's item combat would be better if it had some of the ALTTP items on top of that

If you've been thinking about dungeons as most of the 3D games encourage you to, you won't keenly miss proper dungeons. If you think about dungeons as the 2D games encourage you to, they're a lot more interesting and you're more likely to miss them in a game that doesn't really have them.

"I finally learned to appreciate dungeons in the Zelda series" =/= "I'M AN EXPERT!!!"

The variety wasn't good, and it forced you to fight enemies in certain ways, which wasn't a good thing. TP did it better by having enemies that were much easier to fight with the right items, but could be defeated normally too.

>I like the moving rooms thing, but every dungeon has the same mechanic and there isn't really much spatial reasoning involved to constitute an actual puzzle
Literally what the fuck am I reading. That is the purest form of spatial reasoning you dolt. You are manipulating an object in 3D SPACE and REASONING your way around said object. That is what spatial reasoning is. It is not remembering where locked doors are.

Were Wind Waker's enemies hard to fight the "normal way" though? IIRC the only enemies that were annoying/impossible to kill with items were peahats and large armos, everything else can be fought with or without items.

Eagle's Tower isn't even the last dungeon you rube.

There isn't actually much reasoning involved though, it's just a visually impressive way to open some doors and close others. I'm not saying it doesn't count as spatial reasoning, I'm saying it's so simplistic and one dimensional that it's hard to even consider it a puzzle.

Please end your life

fpbp

Why are you implying no one else played 2D Zeldas? Sure they are cool and the dungeons may make you feel smart but but that doesn't make the 3D games less great or more shit

Whatever, nerd.

It's easy, that doesn't mean there isn't tons of reasoning involved. It's a series of mechanisms that affect the entire layout of a dungeon and you can manipulate it anytime, anywhere. If you measure complexity of a dungeon by the amount of decisions you can make at any moment to get to the solution, BotW takes the crown. You can always manipulate the layout of the dungeon and it isn't ever a one-way switch. Going through them means internalizing both what the space looks like and what the space will look like after you take an action. There are no doors to open or close so figuring out where you can go and what you can do after each action is all a test of spatial reasoning.

This is not to say that it is difficult, because the problem is that it isn't. Despite that, it still requires more conscious reasoning than almost any other dungeon in the series.

Let's devise a new test called the "small retarded child test." Every Zelda game is designed for and can be beaten by a small child, so to establish the complexity of a dungeon, ask yourself if the dungeon can be completed by a retarded child that simply does actions without remembering what they did previously or thinking about the consequences of what they are doing.

You can beat most 2D dungeons by thoughtlessly performing the only actions available to you. Even dungeons that I like to think require spatial awareness like the Great Bay Temple can be beaten because all of the important switches only have to be flipped once. A small retarded child might not beat the Water Temple because if they could cycle water levels infinitely. Similarly it's possible that a small retarded child doesn't beat BotW dungeons because they don't understand how to use the mechanism.

I'm fond of WW but I hated how some of the dungeon rooms felt like the designer patting himself on the back, like the one room in the Earth Temple with the scorpion mirrors. Yes, they made a pretty image in the end, but mindlessly pushing each one into place to unveil the next to be pushed into place was boring.