Is this whole series just some meme that got out of hand?

Is this whole series just some meme that got out of hand?

I tried playing the first game, and it was just too hard to be fun, and if i'm honest, too hard to be playable.

And I don't mean in a "boo hoo, I got killed by enemies a few times" kind of way. I mean from a game design point of view. Placing checkpoints a good twenty minutes walk from the first boss that can kill you in one hit. Having one-hit kills from out of nowhere just AFTER said boss with no time to save.

None of this stuff is fun, save the boss. Memorising the patterns and making up for it, and adapting, that's all great. Working against the shitty gameplay isn't.

So is it insecurity that keeps people from criticising this game? The thought that someone might tell them to "git gud"?

Other urls found in this thread:

blog.metaclassofnil.com/?p=684
youtube.com/watch?v=SDyFsXimZcI
youtube.com/watch?v=tXQTz6dawis
twitter.com/NSFWRedditImage

git gud fag

The first 2 hours is the hardest part of the game, then you learn the controls and rhythm of combat and it turns into the greatest game ever made

No, you're just bad.

git gud

>controls and rhythm of combat

This I actually enjoy, to be honest. Feels nice and solid. And the atmosphere is nice. But the game design seems so cackhanded. Everything from the lack of decently-spaced checkpoints to the stupid menu UI is just irritating.

I managed to get into the Souls games, but the community is trash. They're a bunch of dicks, it's almost like they don't want you to even try the game but then they bitch at you for not playing it. Sacks of shit, all of them.

Isn't it past bedtime for you, user?

The bonfire spacing is the whole point, it's meant to make the world feel oppressive and uncaring and for you to feel an immense sense of relief when you find a new one.

Also after the Taurus Demon there's a bonfire, you just didn't look hard enough. Plus the bridge was charred black and covered with bodies and you'd seen a dragon earlier in the level — what did you expect?

The menus are genuinely bad in DaS1.

Everything else you've mentioned gets much better as you get better though.

The difficulty is what makes the games feel so rewarding, and if you'll give it a chance, you'll probably grow to like it.

git gud

Menus are the one thing DaS2/3 do better. Everything else is like ten times worse

I've found the community to be VERY 50/50. I'm not autistic, I know that some people REALLY love these games, and I can see why. But while 50% is generally decent people, the "git gud" is way too strong.

I guess i'd liken these games to older ones like Dragon's Lair, even though it's a different genre. Trial and error. And I don't mind trial and error, but i'm gonna get pretty bored trudging 20 minutes back there to try again..

>The bonfire spacing is the whole point, it's meant to make the world feel oppressive and uncaring

I can accept this, though I would figure that game designers might want to put a few more in near the beginning, to ease in players.

>Also after the Taurus Demon there's a bonfire, you just didn't look hard enough

I see Solaire, a locked door and a bridge..

>Plus the bridge was charred black and covered with bodies and you'd seen a dragon earlier in the level

Oh, so I don't HAVE to cross that bridge?

>if you'll give it a chance, you'll probably grow to like it.

I've died about 20 cheap deaths already. I don't mind them because it's ME fucking up. I have, however, noticed the game forcing me into deaths, and that is not fun. Quite the opposite.

>Placing checkpoints a good twenty minutes walk from the first boss that can kill you in one hit. Having one-hit kills from out of nowhere just AFTER said boss with no time to save.
M8 I'm pretty sure you're talking out of your ass because I can't think of a single class that can get one shot by the first boss you face in the game (unless you did some really topsy turvy shit and ended up facing what is definitely not supposed to be the first boss). After that particular boss there's something that can almost kill you, but considering you got a free heal afterwards, should you decide to use it, it should be pretty likely that you'll survive just fine as long as you can process ideas like "cover" and "how not to turn into crispy toast".

I'm going to be honest, I half agree with you. I love Dark Souls, but it hasn't aged the best. Its still a good game, but after the world design of Bloodbourne and the faster paced combat, going back to Dark Souls felt like my character was walking underwater.

Still its a great game and well worth atleast 1 playthrough. Don't skip the DLC.

Nigga there's one cheap death in the game and it's way into the game

It leads to an optional area where you can meet solaire later on there's a bonfire there and a shortcut to an area where you eventually come later on to progress the game.

You have to go halfway down the bridge, and take the exit to the right before you get fried. There's a bonfire there.

What do you mean? how did it force you into deaths? Which deaths were cheap in your opinion?

I actually think your criticism is legitimate, but Soulsfags will shitpost you into Oblivion and even claim that you are baiting.

>I can accept this, though I would figure that game designers might want to put a few more in near the beginning, to ease in players.
The fact that they didn't do this is what's so refreshing about these games though. They could have added an easy mode too, or allowed you to quick save, but they didn't compromise their vision of the world
>Oh, so I don't HAVE to cross that bridge?
You do, just bait out the dragon and time your run. There's a safe spot halfway down that's where the bonfire is

>Dark Souls is "too hard to be fun"

Kek. Stick to Zelda. Avoid Zelda 2 though you would hate it.

>Having one-hit kills from out of nowhere just AFTER said boss with no time to save.
Yup the drake sucks dick but thats just one instance of the game being silly with its enemy placement and it wont do that again. Its also not a boss, you can avoid him in 2 ways.

This game is irrefutable dung. The combat is just clunky as well, and the controls feel stiff as a board.

Only seen one other red phantom get wrecked that hard today.

Try parry, skeleton

I don't know if you meant for this webm to be proof of your claim or not, but that was 100% that guy's fault.

>Which deaths were cheap in your opinion?

In the undead burg there are a few times when enemies will come out from areas to get behind you, and a few times they will just spawn at the bottom of stairs just so they can surprise you.

The first time I went to the bridge I didn't try to cross it but got dragoned anyway.

Shit like that kind of annoys me, because there's nothing I can do about it.

>The combat is just clunky as well, and the controls feel stiff as a board.
Man, you're going to really hate Dark Souls 2 then

7 years later and people are STILL talking about this game

The fact that you don't simply respawn outside or re-entering the fog gate is a bit of a hold over from Demon's Souls, at least thats how I see it, In Demon's Souls just getting to the boss was half the challenge and unlike later Souls games it wasn't as easy to just run straight back to the boss, bosses weren't designed as hard as they are in modern souls as result of this.

BTW the game is constantly autosaving and after every boss you're given a homeward bone, so you don't really need to seek out the next bonfire immediately after a boss.

>turning on the second to last stair

you should have posted a pic of yourself casually using the drake sword,

that would have baited everyone

I would say it's split 30/50/20 between the "git gud" assholes, reddit, and chill people.

for the record, there are no enemies that spawn in this game. They're all there from the start. If they're hiding in ambush, it's your job to carefully look for where they could be and not just charge forward.

straight up bads don't know how to git gud

Dark Souls is not even a hard game. I don't get where this meme came from, but it makes it easy to tell who's shit at games.

I can't even see Dark Souls as hard anymore. Everything about it is just too intuitive to be difficult.

I don't recall your first example. In my experience, the enemies were always somewhere you could see them beforehand. Some hid in corners of rooms as you entered, but you always had time to react.

The dragon is 100% a bullshit moment, though. I believe you can hear him roar before his initial attack, but chances are that unless you know he's coming before hand, you're going to die. You'll have a long way to walk back to boot.

Probably one of the bottom 5 moments in the game.

My friend wanted to watch me play it not too long ago on Steam. It can be punishing, but the more you play, the more you learn.

Yes, you will die. But it felt good to pass certain points after getting your shit pushed in.

I fucked up and went to that fairy dragon monster too early. But I had a shit load of souls, so rather than leave them, I spent what must of been ten attempts fighting that god awful thing. Just rolling like a lunatic and trying not to get assblasted.

Oddly enough when I got two the two hard bosses, the duo guys, I got it on my second attempt. My friend was surprised.

Either way, you get better as you play. It is fun.
Punishing, but people figure out ways to cruise through it. To me it felt like a throwback to old NES games that had insane difficulty. Yeah, sometimes you got to run back and do the same shit a ton of times. But it enforces better play.

I don't know, it isn't for everyone.

Didn't Phil beat this shit?
What is your excuse OP?

>Soulsfags will shitpost you into Oblivion and even claim that you are baiting.

I guess. Any kind of criticism on Sup Forums gets this, though. And again, it's not like i'm not going to play the game because..fuck it. I paid for it.

But I am starting to think that a lot of the game is designed around the "just one more go" style of gameplay, and it's a little bit obvious that it's trying to cover its flaws with that

I'm thoroughly enjoying Bloodborne. My friend is pointing me in the direction to go, but I have to figure out how to fight the enemies.

When I try any of the 3 Dark Souls, I enjoy the exploring and the atmosphere and all that. But it's a grindy kind of game. There's a lot of barricades before I get to what is "fun".

And I only have so much time to play. I don't want to spend any time playing that doesn't keep me engaged.. Maybe this wasn't always the case. But the prestige of Dark Souls alone isn't enough for me to suffer through its weaknesses.

>see black charring and bodies covering the bridge
>see dead bodies littering the bridge
>dragon landed 2 feet in front of you earlier in the map
>still got hit by the dragon attack
You have only yourself to blame

Maybe it was a gamebug then. It happened on the way to the Taurus demon, just outside the room with a load of boxes and a cheeky skeleton guy in there. At the bottom of the stairs that lead up to a few more skeletons and firebomb dude.

If it's not an actual part of the game, fair enough. I don't want to get DA2'd again.

Just killed Gravelord Nito my first try.

Felt bretty good.

There's actually a guy right after the tower there that's sort of hidden from the front. I guess he noticed you.

I can't remember exactly, but that might be the guy hiding behind a bookshelf or in the next room over. Undead burg especially has some great ambush spots (the hollows hanging off the railings of the bridges that you can snipe early are my favorite).

The Taurus Demon is not 20 minutes from the Burg bonfire, nor should any attack of his one shot you.

>Dark Souls is hard
Play an older Rainbow Six or Operation Flashpoint game

>I guess. Any kind of criticism on Sup Forums gets this, though.
True, I just thought that I'd let you know that I agree with pretty much all your points. I like the game, but I think the biggest flaw is the bonfire placement which actively punishes you for failing by not allowing you to quickly get back to the boss.

The most hardcore cultists will and in fact already have told you how this is actually a good thing.

>Trial and error
These games aren't trial and error at all though. After the first few hours of your first souls game, it's very possible to go through entire areas without dying once because all the hazards are telegraphed beforehand and you've learned to be observant

Basically git gud

He can knock you off the bridge pretty easily.

In fact, one of the things I hate about this game is the fact that so much of it is based around platforming, with no actual way to jump properly.

There are some where it's too much, (3-2 in DeS comes to mind) but I don't see what the problem is with making death actually matter in boss fights. If you respawned outside of boss rooms the fight would have zero stakes since you would always be able to easily retrieve your souls and start the fight again immediately. A good balance of punishment without being too boring is important

They are QUITE trial and error. I remember one spot, just at the start of Undead Parish, where you can climb the stairs and get a very nasty surprise.

When you go through the fog wall, run up to him so he jumps down, turn back and run to the ladder that's to the left of the fog door, and drop down from the roof and do a plunging attack to knock off half his health instantly

The poor jumping is definitely a real issue, but know that it's only used for optional items throughout the whole game except for the worst boss in the history of video games

The black knight has his back to you if that's what you mean, so you can back away if you want. Either that or learn to parry

It's overrated trash.

The second half is complete shit and like half the boss fights are generic demons with no lore significance. The only bosses that stand out in the base game are Seath, Nito, Gwyn, Ornstein and his Ass Demon reskin cuck and Queelag. Every other boss fight is shit. The DLC has three good bosses but shit-tier areas, one of which is a rehash.

Skip it and play DaS3 instead. Don't even think about playing DaS2.

like most people who try the series because of its reputation, you're just too stupid to play it.

Holy shit you suck ass.

Most people who know better just run past all the enemies and go straight back to the boss room, it just a waste of time at that point.

literally git gud. The game isn't even that difficult.

>The first 2 hours is the hardest part of the game
I don't mean to attack the game, but is this really good game design?

> Plus the bridge was charred black and covered with bodies and you'd seen a dragon earlier in the level — what did you expect?
This will always be a bullshit excuse imo.

I love Dark Souls, but the bridge drake moment is complete and utter BS. Even if you see the drake coming and immediately run backwards you get hit and 1 shot, and the charred bridge could just lead you to presume the dragon had been there before, not that it was going to come back immediately.

That isn't trial and error. That's you being too stupid to look ahead and plan.

You'd be a terrible, accident prone driver.

In many cases I can just run past all the mobs though. Does running back really add to the game? It just seems like a waste of time to me. For someone who is doing well this is a non-issue, but for someone who is doing terribly this might actually ruin the game by frustrating the player until he drops the game.

It's the easiest by far on your second playthough, it's just because knowing the controls intuitively are so important to this style of game where an input error could be your death, so when you're first learning the controls (and how combat works in general) it feels way harder than it is

Yeah, but many runs are dangerous enough where you could die or at least take damage and waste estus you need for the boss, so that's the trade off. The ones that are easy runs I agree are a waste of time.

Still though, there's a very clear reason why they showed you the dragon at the beginning. I'm not saying I didn't fall for it either, but the game gives you the tools to figure out that trap ahead of time. It's not the best one in the game, but it's nowhere near the level of that troll in Aldia's Keep breaking down the door

My first souls game was last year at 24. It was Bloodborne. I played for and hour, then realized it was just frustrating and annoying. It wasn't challenging in a real kind of way. More so a "Shitty hit box and hard for the sake of being hard" kind of way. I returned it and bought Sleeping Dogs instead. It was also just okay/10. Excuse my shitty opinions/blog.

This doesn't answer the question. Is it good game design to make the first parts the hardest in the game?

you're just bad bro.

I'm so sorry you missed out on the best experience video games has to offer in BB/Dark Souls 1, m8. Hope Sleeping Dogs was worth it

It's good game design to make the combat skill-based enough that it really matters how good you are with it when playing and to not bog the players down with tutorials. That being said I'd be lying if I didn't say it took me multiple attempts to get into DaS (I always gave up before the Gargoyles) so maybe it is a bit too much. The fact they didn't pull any punches definitely makes repeat playthroughs more enjoyable though, since Undead Burg still isn't a complete cakewalk

He meant in how the player interacts given their inexperience that makes it difficult.

The "hardest" areas in the game is an arguable point, ranging from the first 10 seconds to the final boss.

Maybe? Who knows. I didn't find it hard I a realistic way. I'd rather play a game that felt fun the whole time instead of, Dare I say it, "Artificial Difficulty". Hard game modes in EDF 4.1, and even random arcade/old school games seem more fun than it. As someone who plays to wind down after a long day it just seemed like more work than fun.

>and to not bog the players down with tutorials.
That's a false dichotomy. You should make the initial levels the easiest while teaching the player the mechanics.

I agree for the most part, one of the most hostile and autistic fanabases around. I've never honestly seen another group of people attack someone just because they're struggling with a portion of a game.

There is a lot of bullshit in the game, but in the end you learn to love it like an abused gay crackhead loves getting fucked in the ass for crack.

To be fair to you, the first hour of Bloodborne is easily the hardest part of the whole series. That being said you really missed out by not sticking with it

>That's a false dichotomy. You should make the initial levels the easiest while teaching the player the mechanics.
Right, the rest of my post admitted that maybe Undead Burg is a bit too hard for new players, but that at least it makes repeat playthoughs more fun since you can't walk through it with your eyes closed (like you can 1-1 in DeS). I would say Bloodborne on the other hand DEFINITELY has a first level that's too hard for new players.

shit I also meant to reply to

>but that at least it makes repeat playthoughs more fun
This makes it even more culpable when so many people drop the game because the initial level is so difficult, much less play the game on a second playthrough when it's supposed to be easy.
Disclosure: I haven't actually played Dark Souls, so take my theoretical criticisms.

The game is full of ridiculously poor design decisions, I don't think anybody can deny this. Nothing is worse than the ring required to get to the four kings boss fight though. There is basically nothing in the game that points you to this ring in the game, and even if you fucking happened to find it before finding the abyss, it's still not likely you will figure out you need to equip it before jumping into a pit that previously killed you but now for some reason it doesn't. Straight up bullshit, I highly doubt anybody here figured it out without looking it up.

>twenty minute walk from the first boss

good bait til this point

It's the kind of thing where you could argue that this one thing could be slightly better, but it's also the developer's unwillingness to compromise for accessibility that makes the whole game so fantastic. You should definitely give it a shot

The Darkwraiths reside in a dark void called the Abyss.
>But the Abyss is no place for ordinary mortals.
>Although long ago, the knight Artorias traversed the Abyss.
>If you can find him, and learn from him, the Abyss may prove surmountable.
— Ingward, the NPC it's mandatory you speak to unless you blindly kill him for no reason

>Placing checkpoints a good twenty minutes walk from the first boss
You had me going for a minute there user.

Fug really? I'm kind of bummed I returned it now. I was debating between keeping it or not for a while and decided I wanted a more laid back game at the time. Maybe I'll pick it up again. I love the lore of all of them, I'm just a fag that hasn't actually made it through them yet

>20 minute walk to a bonfire
k bruh.
I just kicked up DS1 to test the exact bonfire you're talking about.

Walking from the Bonfire in Undead Burg to the bonfire after the Dragon Bridge took 71 seconds.

>71 seconds = 20 minutes
Eat shit nigger.

How do I run DS1 on PC? It's awful. I just want to play it without going into negative FPS in Blighttown.

>Oh, so I don't HAVE to cross that bridge?
technically no you actually don't, but i requires master key and some knowledge about the map. You don't actually have to fight the taurus demon at all, and you can get to the bridge without the dragon ever spawning too.

>buy it on steam
>download DSfix: blog.metaclassofnil.com/?p=684
>drop DSfix into the directory folder
>play

I know what you meant but
>71 Seconds
>20 minutes

user...

>the developer's unwillingness to compromise for accessibility that makes the whole game so fantastic.
Even if the comparatively immense difficulty of Souls is necessary to truly experience the game, I don't see why making the beginning so difficult is necessary.

One really vague piece of dialogue that doesn't specifically point to anything, even now that I know you need the ring to traverse the abyss, im struggling to see how you'd work out you'd need to get a ring from darkroot, equip it, and blindly jump in a hole.

>use shield
>keep it up
>attack occassionally, slowly drawing enemies into one on one fights

That's how you do it. That's literally it. And yes, it's boring.

You can also always pick up DaS1 for $5 on Steam since it's on sale every other week. That's my personal favorite (souls game, and also my favorite game of all time) and doesn't have as hardcore of a start as Bloodborne.

He mentioned he'd just started. So he probably meant it took him that long to fight his way there.

My experience with Dark Souls ended up being the same as my experience with the Binding of Isaac.

>get it for cheap in a sale
>have no idea what the fuck I'm doing
>die a lot
>drop it because it's bullshit
>later end up watching videos of other people playing it
>OH THAT'S HOW IT WORKS
>pick it back up and start having fun

But why would you play that way?

>Spawn to Burg Bonfire
>Walk through Taurus Demon route
>Walk across bridge
>71 seconds, maybe 90 seconds if you're stopping to smell roses

>kill Sif before doing New Londo
>Ingward mentions Artorias
>remember his name on the ring
>equip it
>fall down the hole
>

Bonus: from full health it is literally impossible for the dragon to kill you in one hit on that first pass. Doesn't matter what class, doesn't matter if you're naked and never leveled hp, it gives you at least one chance to recover from getting hit.

>you get hit and 1 shot
youtube.com/watch?v=SDyFsXimZcI

youtube.com/watch?v=tXQTz6dawis

Stop with this dragon kill meme.

>90 seconds turns in to 30 minutes

dark souls 2 is honestly the hardest game of the series

>im struggling to see how you'd work out you'd need to get a ring from darkroot

the NPC says "learn from artorias"

andre, the guy you talk to all game, sells a mysterious item called the "crest of artorias"

and there's a strange door in the darkroot garden with a crest-shaped hole in it