Gwyn was right

Gwyn was right

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youtu.be/aKYwNx_y79Q?t=35
youtube.com/watch?v=oGQ86Aet_7M
darksouls3.wiki.fextralife.com/White Preacher Head
darksouls3.wiki.fextralife.com/Ringed Knight Straight Sword
darksouls3.wiki.fextralife.com/Dragonhead Greatshield
twitter.com/NSFWRedditVideo

So does he show up in Ds3? I don't know because I've been waiting for the GOTY version and for the GOTY version to be 50% off.

There's a statue of him.

everyone was wrong, except for the dragons

>world ruled by dragons where nothing happens

vs

>world that constantly is reborn only to die, where everyone suffers forever

>son has a dragon fetish
>other son is a fucking trap
>daughter cucked a dragon then just left
>other daughter went into a coma for no reason
>wife nowhere to be found
He did nothing right.

You have a statue of him granting a crown to the Pygmy Lords before betraying them and locking them away for the entirety of the Age of Fire

The inevitability of death doesn't make life any less worth living

>where nothing happens
I wouldn't consider that a good thing. Let's say it's neutral.

The age of fire has sadness and happiness, death and life heat and cold, good and bad, etc.
It's something more similar to the actual real world.

Filianore did nothing wrong

>Filianore did nothing

I dont get das3.

Why did whats his nigger need the dank soul? To make paint?

The painter needed the dark soul to finish her painting. My theory is that she wants to make a world with eternal age of dark(man).

If there's only one takeaway from dark souls 3, and the ringed city in particular, it's that Gwyn was fucking wrong as fuck and his desires will lead the world to a path far, far worse than an age of Dark.

Why the dark soul though?

What were the other paints made out of. How the fuck are entire realms stored in paintings.

I thought ashes of assumption entire point was that a painting cant last either

It's possible that this is the first painting being made from the pigment of the Dark Soul, and it will be able to survive the age of Dark, being undisturbed in the dark stillness of a world without fire.

>had theories about das2 and the nature of the world
>das3 confirms it

Neat game guys.
Too bad about the world though

The first flame came to be, it's not like the dragons had any say in it. The Age of Fire couldn't have existed with the dragons around, so the lords had to wipe them out. It's the natural order of things, the mass extinction had to happen, presumably.

...

But the age of dark isnt infinite either.

There is no answer, and das3 made sure you think there is. I dont get it

>my theory is that she wants to make an eternal age of dark
what the fuck? no, she just wants to make a fresh painting, tone down the Vaati

The Paintings are all made with the Dark Soul, there's no reason to suspect that this particular painting is any different. Entire realms are stored in the painting because that's the entire point of the paintings' enchantment, it's an exotic form of dark magic

He was building an army of pygmygates

The painting doesn't have to last FOREVER, it's intended to be a safe refuge for people who want to escape the Age of Dark. Once that ends, whoever's in the painting can come out to a renewed world. It's kind of like a vault from fallout

Her spell was what was keeping TRC from falling into the end of the Age of Fire like everything else, she was casting some kind of stasis on it. She was also pretty bro-tier towards the humans she was in charge of.

>Implying The Ringed City wasn't supposed to be in the vanilla game.
>Implying The Ringed City wasn't cut so they could sell it as the "end to Dark Souls"
>Bunch of this stuff was found in the game files when it first came out last year.
>"Crimson Bat" found among the names of bosses
>"Soul of a Great Bat" found among items
>Described as being "sealed deep under the earth"
>An unused Bonfire location sits directly below the Demon Ruins
>The promotional art shows the desert where you fight Gael.

We could also blame Bamco I suppose; their meddling probably hasn't helped ever. And it's never seemed like Miyazaki was terribly interested in making Dark Souls sequels, he seems to have avoided it for the most part, so it also feels like there's an element of resentment to the creation of DS2 and 3 that probably hindered them as well. Especially 3, where you see so much Bloodborne leaking in.

Even in DS1 that was clear, he only wanted to serve himself and the other gods, it's why the dark serpent, forgot his name; was really the better option for your character

Gwyn's fuckin dead m8

Who was implying any of these things, user?

>implying that the Serpents weren't behind the creation of the First Flame

It's also worth noting that the Dark, and by extension the Abyss are not inherently evil, as the gods would like humanity to think. The reason that the Dark became violent and destructive was because it was exposed to the fire (by means of the linking of the first flame, and the darksign).

A painting made from the Dark Soul, without being exposed to the Fire (which is quite likely, given that the Fire in the outside world has gone out) will stay safe and free of rot forever.

So the only way to beat the cycle is to hide from it in a painting?

Fuck I think I liked das2 answer to the problem better.

I guess my main issue with das3 is the pygmies, if they are them then who was manus?

>The Abyss isn't inherently evil
Get the fuck out of here, the Abyss only exists to consume and devour, it was like this even before the First Flame was linked originally back in Oolacile and New Londo.

Furthermore, saying that the Dark was peaceful in a time before being exposed to fire is nonsensical because Fire and Darkness have literally always existed at the same time, there was no time of Darkness before Fire.

If that's the case then the serpents are a bunch of indecisive, contradictory assholes.

What cycle? The "cycles" spoken of in DaS2 are artificial. Linking the fire is not a natural thing. The real cycle will happen when a new first flame is lit from nothingness, like last time, and by that point it might not even happen in this "world" so to speak, so you're kind of fucked either way. The question is if you want the world to end peacefully, or you want it to end as a horrible husk.

Also, pygmies are primordial men, Manus was _a_ pygmy, presumably. The Pygmies are men who weren't branded by the gods and were permitted continued access to the Abyss.

All of the horrible shit that happened with the Abyss happened after Gwyn went and fucked with the course of nature. The Gods feared the Abyss and the Dark because they couldn't control it themselves, unlike the humans. Ringed Knight gear makes that case loud and clear.

Were the Four Kings in the right or in the wrong?

They listened to a primordial serpent, so they were wrong.

The seal of fire that the Gods placed on the Ringed Knight armor was specific to that armor, not to humanity as a whole or the Abyss as a whole, and furthermore you have no proof that the Abyss was "peaceful" at the time of TRC nor do you have proof that Gwyn linking the flame altered the course of nature.

In addition, the Darksign that you are talking about is not a seal, it is a seal that is broken.

>What cycle?
The cycle the the first games fucking intro.
You know the ENTIRE point of all 3 games?
First game makes it a point that you cant win, second game makes it a point that man can achieve its desires if enough kingdoms fall to build up the souls needed. Third game is like we got a painting with dark soul in it, lets hide out inside.

>The Pygmies are men who weren't branded by the gods and were permitted continued access to the Abyss.
I still dont get it, what was gwyns motivation for this whole thing?

He became an empty hollow husk. He was no deity, just another being among the dark

>Gwyn, lord of sunlight
>Gwyn, lord of cinders

what did they mean by this

>The Pygmies are men who weren't branded by the gods and were permitted continued access to the Abyss.
says who

The darksign looks exactly the same as the seal of fire, and yet you think they serve different purposes based on no evidence at all. Also, across DaS1 and DaS3 it's made painfully obvious that linking the fire is UNNATURAL, because it's literally burning the world up, and also because it's becoming progressively harder to do with each linking. By the end, you're barely lighting yourself on fire to the first flame, whereas in DaS1, you explode with light.

Yeah but none of that has anything to do with saying that the Abyss is somehow "naturally" peaceful and not ravenous, which is what I was asking you to show, and also the reason why the Darksign on the Ringed Knight armor and the Darksign on your flesh look the same is because they are both indicators that the Dark has broken through a seal that the Gods had placed on it to repress it. Unless, of course, you think that the Sun is suddenly turned into the Dark and needed sealing off at the end of DaS3 for no reason.

>The Ringed City

I DON'T LIKE 'EM PUTTING DARKSIGNS IN MORTALS THAT TURN THE FRIGGIN' HUMANS UNDEAD

I'M A PIONEER, I'M AN PYGMY! I'M A HUMAN AND I'M COMIN'! I'M ANIMATED, I'M ALIVE! MY HEART'S BIG, IT'S GOT HOT BLOOD GOING THROUGH IT FAST! I LIKE TO FIGHT TOO! I LIKE TO FEAST! I LIKE TO HAVE CHILDREN! I'M HERE! I GOT A LIFEDRAIN, THIS IS A HUMAN, THIS IS WHAT WE LOOK LIKE, THIS IS WHAT WE ACT LIKE! THIS IS WHAT EVERYBODY WAS LIKE BEFORE US! THIS IS WHAT I AM, I'M A THROWBACK, I'M HERE! I GOT THE FIRE OF HUMAN LIBERTY. I'M ENDING FIRE'S EVERYWHERE, AND HUMANS ARE TURNING ON EVERYWHERE!

what meme is this

The addition of the Deep was specifically to show that the Abyss isn't the de facto form of the Dark. Abyss is to dark as chaos is to flame.

First of all, there's this line
youtu.be/aKYwNx_y79Q?t=35
Which implies that the Abyss, when left alone, is peaceful, but when exposed to the light of the Flame, causes awful shit to happen. Every time we've seen an eruption of Abyss in the games, it's as a result of Fire and Dark mixing together.

In New Londo, it was the 4kids using Gwyn's soul for their own devices.
In Oolacile, it was the oolacilians driving Manus mad with their experiments.

If the Locust Preacher is to be believed (and, to be honest, considering he talks about characters you know, and mentions facts about them which are kind of intimate, it's quite likely), then the Dark is not a thing to be feared.

Also, the sun in DaS is fake, 100%. Is it not possible that the sun serves another purpose in the world, and that it both keeps the world lit, and it holds back the Dark which tries to encroach upon the world when the fire fades? Nothing is certain about this stuff, but I'd say it's quite likely that the sun, and as a result the Darksign sun, and the Darksign itself serve the same purpose. A ring of fire enveloping the Dark, and keeping it at bay.

Gwyn just really, really hated manlets.

The fact that the Pygmies have an actual piece of the dark soul and not a minuscule fragment of it, which they presumably use.

>unironically using the Preachers' words as evidence
You are aware that they're trying to trick you into lowering your guard so that they can eat you alive, right? Trusting them is a mistake.

Also, the Abyss is L I T E R A L L Y Humanity driven wild. That's it's only definition -- drive the Dark Soul mad and you get the Abyss. It's the Chaos version of Darkness. There are not "two" Abysses that erupted in Lordran, there was only the one, fathered by Manus. youtube.com/watch?v=oGQ86Aet_7M

There was no "mixing of fire and dark" when Manus was corrupted, it was human sorcerers fucking with human souls, that's 100% darkness.

>the Sun is a ring of fire enveloping the Dark, keeping it at bay
This makes no sense. If your explanation was true, than during the prime Age of Fire (when Fire works properly), we would see the Sun as a darksign since that is when you would see the properly-functioning Ring of Fire holding back the dark. And then when Darkness overwhelmed the ring, it would disappear entirely. The opposite is true -- when Fire holds strong, the Sun is whole and only when the Sun is weakened by the fading flame does the Dark literally erupt from the center and push the disk of light back to the fringes. The ring of fire is the fire being overwhelmed from within by the Dark.

What made you think that the Pygmy ever distributed the Dark Soul evenly? What makes you think that the Ringed City knights (who actually suffered the sea) carry an bigger a piece of the Dark Soul within them than you do?

Except even the Deep has been corrupted by the Abyss.

The very fact that the Deep had to be corrupted by the Abyss in the first place, as opposed to always being the Abyss from the get-go, proves his point that Darkness is INHERENTLY Abyssal in nature.

Also, the Deep's corruption extends further than the Abyss, the Abyss is present in the Deep but so too are things unrelated to the Abyss and are a result of the general rot/decay of the world over time, so saying that the Deep was "corrupted by the Abyss" is a mistake in comparison to saying that "the Deep rotted over time."

Aldrich and pals aren't really helping the case that natural darkness is a good thing.
Hell, even Londor is full of awful fucking people if you read the descriptions of their spells/miracles.

*isnt' inherently abyssal in nature

This Preacher is quite literally the only Locust who does NOT want to eat you, if you hadn't noticed. He only realizes that he shall partake after you beat him up and he loses his mind. The locusts have the goal of convincing humanity that the dark isn't malevolent.
Also, a minor thing, if the dark was an awful, malevolent creation, then why would the ringed knights actively seek it out? If the dark was a thing that's to be feared, why would they so desperately seek to return to it? Read the description of their mask.

What I mean when I say that the abyss shenanigans in Oolacile were created as a result of fire and abyss mixing isn't that the abyss was formed as a result of this. The abyss is a natural thing, if you remember, the hollows that found the souls came from the Dark. What I am saying is that the abyss eruption which caused humanities to go wild and people to become bloatheads is a result of the abyss being exposed to the fire. Oolacile's original sorceries aren't Dark.

The sun is originally strong enough to sustain its original form of a giant ball of light in the sky, but when the fire fades, the ball fades and you only get to see its edges, which are the last line of defense against the dark. This is all theories that I have about the game based on symbols that I've seen.

>"the Deep rotted over time."
I fucking knew there was some sort of connection between the Deep and the Rot of Ariandal.

Ringed Knights aren't pygmies, they're regular humans who were drafted into the war against the dragons and might be the first humans who were mutilated by the gods and lost their affinity with the dark and the abyss.

Also, I never suggested that all the pygmy lords distributed the dark soul evenly, it might've been some kind of crown that they shared among themselves, or perhaps they are just primordial men who have survived all this time since the dawn of the age of fire. It's unclear.

Aldrich isn't Dark, he's Deep, which is a very different thing.

Also, did you miss that part in the Londor ending where they don't really want an age of Dark? Londor's goal is to usurp the first flame, not to snuff it out.

>the hollows that found the souls came from the Dark.
I wouldn't interpret the intro to DaS I too literally.
Besides, there is strong evidence that the Hollows were born of the Archtrees from the Age of Ancients.

If you hadn't realized that the Preachers are lying to you about the nature of the Abyss when they say that "the Abyss is incapable of producing insect monsters" even though they are explicitly insect monsters spawned from the Abyss, you are delusional. Their one and only objective is to sucker you into joining them in the Dark, so that they can devour you. The preacher you speak with is just more reserved than his tiny bretheren. You are taking the Darkness version of Toddposters at their word and not questioning anything.

>If the dark is a thing to be feared why would they seek to return to it?
I dunno, there's just something about the lure of unlimited powah that drives men to seek it out no matter how self-destructive doing so is. See: 4kings of New Londo who saw the destruction of Oolacile and thought to themselves "yeah I want a piece of that action!"

The Abyss IS NOT EQUIVALENT TO THE DARK IN GENERAL. The Abyss is a CORRUPTION of Darkness. God fucking damn it, people need to stop saying this shit.

>when the ball of fire fades you only see the edges which are the last line of defense against the dark
so you admit that the symbol of the Darksign is the symbol of a seal/construct of fire being overwhelmed or otherwise broken by the Dark, and not a symbol of the seal/construct itself?

Every single line in that opening monologue is literally true, even the one about "man sees not light but only endless night", considering we see the effect the fading fire has on the sun. If this is the case, then why should we ignore that line in particular?

The 'peaceful' deep itself was the abyss. The deep is essentially masses of humanity that clogs up anything.

Think about the little things, like the maggots reviving corpses (not hollows) or assuming the shape of humans. Then compare them to the murkmen which are disembodied humanity possessing corpses (again, not hollows).

Before anybody claims 'but deep is water' only the deep soul spells and murkmen reflect the water effect. The common connection between all deep creatures are humanity and corpses. Aldrich and the Cathedral of the Deep's cannibalism, corpse wine, undead slimes (mass of souls, see this game, Depths slimes (hollows locked into the depths before the burg got overran), Mass of Souls, the maggots that control or resemble human form, murkmen rising from ash of the dead, etc.

If that still doesn't convince you, please explain Gnaw? Gnaw's insects don't exist, they're just humanity like the Firekeeper's soul (source: Locust Preacher and Dark Souls 1 Firekeeper Soul). Infact Irina imagined these things, she wasn't even a Firekeeper at that time.

Consider the deep to clogs on clogs of human corpses and this picture of a desert of ash to be the sea of the deep Aldrich thought of. Food for thought: The Dreg Heap is called it because of falling through ruins of Dark Souls 3, 2 and 1 to get to the Ringed City, did you notice the name 'dreg' and the huge amount of ash where the murkmen pop out of?

>The Deep is not the Dark
Then why does it do Dark damage, hmm??? Why is it made of humanity sprites, hmm??? Why does it only rise to prominence when the flames fade (which is also when the Dark rolls in, which is surely a coincidence)???

>Also, did you miss that part in the Londor ending where they don't really want an age of Dark? Londor's goal is to usurp the first flame, not to snuff it out.
Because snuffing out the first flame will not create an Age of Darkness. The first flame needs to exist in a weakened state for there to be an age of dark.

The Age of Hollows, The Age of Man, and the Age of Dark are all the same thing. Kaathe changed his methods a bit, not his ultimate goal.

I'm not pulling the Archtrees out of my ass. There is quite a bit of proof in both 2 and 3 for the Archtree origin.

Not the same guy at all but you seem to be mistaking the abyss the deep and the dark.

The dark is what exists in parallel to the first flame.

The abyss was created when humans fucked over manus and tried to make magic using dark soul humanity nonsense.

The deep seems to be humans take on the dark without causing it to become engaged and go abyssal, a way to try and prolong the dark without losing everything to it.

Its a mirror of the light.

The first flame is the natural antithesis to the dark, it comes and it fades endlessly.

The chaos is a mirror of the abyss, when the gods attempted to take the first flame into their own hands and create another.

The relighting of the fire to unnaturally prolong their age is like the deep, which is using the dark to unnaturally prolong their age at the cost of their own bodies it seems.


I'm just spitballing though.

>The peaceful deep was the Abyss
>Gnaw (which are Abyssal insects) prove this
Did you just have a stroke? Gnaw was a part of the corruption of the Deep that wasn't there originally. It's not native to the Deep, the Abyss is not native to the Deep, because the Abyss and the Deep are two different things

The two things that I think 100% confirm that the Dark and the Abyss are one and the same are in the opening dialogue of DaS1
>Then, from the Dark, they came
and:
darksouls3.wiki.fextralife.com/White Preacher Head

Read Firekeeper Soul from Dark Souls 1 and remember Irina isn't a firekeeper yet.

The 'insects' of the deep are HUMANITY. The insects do not exist.

The second phase of the last fight

>the insects are humanity
they are visually depicted on the Gnaw spell icon and they look nothing whatsoever like humanity

The abyss was NOT created by humans fucking over manus and there is factual evidence for this

darksouls3.wiki.fextralife.com/Ringed Knight Straight Sword
>Straight sword wielded by the Ringed Knights.
>The arms of early men were forged in the Abyss, and betray a smidgen of life.

darksouls3.wiki.fextralife.com/Dragonhead Greatshield
>The Ringed Knights, by command of the gods, stood amongst the ranks who set out to slay the dragons, but their contributions were never lauded.

If the Abyss was created in Oolacile, then that means that the Oolacile shenanigans happened before the extinction of the dragons, which is fucking impossible considering Kalameet is one of the last remaining dragons.

If hollows were born of the abyss, why do they turn into trees in the later stages of hollowing (See the High Wall of Lothric and the Forest of Fallen Giants)?

>People create Abyssal embers like the Witch of Izalith made Chaos Embers before lighting herself up to forge their weapons and armor with
>this conclusively proves that Manus couldn't have birthed the physical location that is the Abyss at a later point in time
Protip: the backstory of the birth of the chaos flame and the birth of the Abyss are exact mirrors of one another. Use the template.

Many things that are Abyssal look vaguely plant like, with weird branches growing out of them. Look at the 4kids, look at the darkwraith armor in DaS3. Look at the weird abyssal dog things in Farron Keep. Look at the Ghru. Look at ringed knight gear.

You're making shit up when there is lore evidence that proves that the abyss existed well before oolacile, why are you ignoring it?

I know it's the most corny type of pandering, but right after the demon prince fight, the fact that the tunnel where Frampt was in the firelink recreation was actually shaped like a serpent and lead to ringed city made me feel gud.

Actually, they should send off a patch to Dark Souls 1 that lets you visit the ringed city if you drop down that hole.

>Did you not arise from the Abyss?
This statement is a question, not a fact. It is a question because its' written from the POV of the preacher who is actively trying to convert you to his cause, not an impartial third party/objective narrator. The answer to the question he asks is "no."

Lothric knights in dreg heap also have branches eveywhere

If the abyss is a result of the dark being used unnaturally wouldnt it make sense that there has always been an abyss since the first age when the dark was used by the gods or pygmies and to forge these armors?

I was wrong in saying the abyss came from manus, that was just the most recent resurgence of it.

The 'infinite humanity' on firekeeper soul look like sperm.

What's your point? The insects don't exist, the preacher doesn't lie and all deep spells use humanity.

How is it written from the perspective of the preacher if it's approaching you from the angle of a person who is not a preacher?

That would be interesting if they ever remade it in 15~ years

>Here is an interpretation of the item description that challenges yours
>NO SHUT THE FUCK UP MY INTERPRETATION IS OBJECTIVELY RIGHT REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
fuck off faggot, come back when you learn how to lorefag properly

My interpretation that "they used the Abyss to forge their armor and weapons" is that the people of The Ringed City were experimenting with the techniques needed to drive humanity wild on a small scale, making embers for forging purposes. They tried the same technique on Manus in Oolacile and it blew up in their faces. Find me an item description that 100% unambiguously proves this interpretation wrong.

>the preacher doesn't lie

And so, she lived in fear. Of the dark, of the things that gnawed at her flesh.
And yet! The Abyss hath yet to produce any such creature!

>An empty head of a white-faced locust that rose from an abyssal swamp. The white-faced locusts were meant to beckon men to the dark with sermons, but most of them are unable to think past their own stomachs

Please try to not be this gullible in the future.

Manus is the mad sorcerer detailed in AotA's dark spells and the 'sorcerer who had a role' described on the white birch bow in Dark Souls 3.

Next.

>it's approaching you from the angle of a person who is not a preacher?
Except that it is? It regurgitates his very sermon back at you

>And yet! The Abyss hath yet to produce any such creature!
>She's not yet a firekeeper
>Miracles are all about replicating things from tales

Can't really call me gullible when you're ignoring Dark Souls 1.

So I'm a little confused here. From my understanding, the Abyss is a physical location deep beneath the earth (the Chasm of the Abyss), but it also means wild humanity right?

Are you perhaps referencing an item description that doesn't actually exist right now?

A short bow crafted with white birch. Endowed with light-manipulating magic.

The bow is a relic from an ancient land of sorceries that was swallowed by the Abyss, most known for its folktale of the heroic Abysswalker. -- White Birch Bow

The only reason you would have made this mistake is if you actually hadn't played TRC and were fooled by incorrect Fextra descriptions (that were trolls) because you had no point of comparison. Come back to these threads after you play the DLC and read this shit for yourself instead of being a secondary.

That is Dusk.
The white birch is a clear give away to her.

Can someone explain to me in as little words as possible what "linking the first flame" is supposed to mean / practically do to the world in which you are playing in?

In DS1 and DS3, what are the outcomes of me linking the first flame in the ending and what are the outcomes of me not doing that?

You basically fight him again as the second form of the final fight in the main game; it's the Soul of Cinder, which is basically every single one of the souls that linked the flame in the past in one spooky skellington body

Keep the sun turned on or not, if the sun gets turned of the gods lose.

The gods built 90% of the world so what they say is mostly seen as true.

Linking the Fire means using your soul to fuel the first flame and prolong the age of fire.

If you don't link the fire, an age of dark will occur when the fire weakens.

And if the first flame outright goes out...... I don't know.

So gwyn created TRC? And let the pygmies camp there?

Why, wouldnt he want to kill them or something?

>implying that the Gnaw tale references firekeepers
>implying that a failed firekeeper would feel the gnawing of humanity, as opposed to a full firekeeper who ACTUALLY has humanity gnawing at her
>implying that you didn't just ignore the outright confirmation that the Preachers lie to you to be obtuse
>implying that you aren't grasping at super straws right now

Linking the flame means that you use your body, and more importantly, your soul, to ignite the first flame. The first flame is the essence of the world as you know it, and without it, the world "dies" (except not completely). Linking the fire keeps the world going a bit longer, even though with each linking, the act becomes harder, presumably because the fire fading is equivalent to the concept of entropy in thermodynamics, and the fire fading is kind of the same as the universe experiencing heat death.

Snuffing the flame out brings about the end of the age of fire, which means that a new flame will ignite at some point in the distant future, so that the natural order of the world will be restored.

The first flame will never go out, disparity is a pandora's box that cannot ever be re-sealed. dark, then fire, then dark, then fire, then dark etc.

Gwyn wasn't so evil as to just genocide everyone, he allowed them to exist so long as they knew their place

>super straws

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