Was he right?

Was he right?

He had some good points but the way he went about things was wrong

He was right for the circumstances he was placed in.
What he did to conquer and unify the tribes of Utah and Colorado was necessary for him and his adopted people to survive.
Unfortunately, his entire rule was based on military conquest, which meant he just had to keep plundering to sustain his civilisation.
Funnily enough, the NCR's pretty much exactly the same.

The more backward aspects of his dictatorship, like women slaves, distrust of modern medicine, extremely rigid moral codes, were mainly to help keep the extremely culturally distinct tribes that he conquered in line.
No maternal lineage means no family ties, no traditions. No reliance on medicine means only the strongest, most combat-capable will survive to drain resources. Strict moral codes ensure everyone's too busy watching out for thought crime to think independently themselves.
As a leader, he's fucking incredible, but I definitely wouldn't want to live in Caesar's Legion.
The issue of succession is a sticky one, too.

It's hard to say if one would feel more sated being an NCR trooper or being a legion slave.

Yes but he would have been more right if he actually gave his troops guns.

...

You get guns when you can prove you're worth giving a gun to.
He was conquering shit-kicker tribals for a thousand miles in every direction, fresh recruits get a nigger-rigged machete and a slap on the ass to hurry them into the front lines.
If they die, good. One less mouth to feed. If don't, excellent. They're going to be one scary motherfucker eventually.

Malo periculosam libertatem quam quietum servitium

>No maternal lineage means no family ties, no traditions.
You meet one Legionary who proudly claims he's descended from the original Blackfoot tribe, so somebody is keeping score despite the attempts to stop it

Why didn't he had a son for a heir? Was he gay?

>Legion
>gay
IMAJUN MY SHOK

>let's destroy all technology and kill/enslave everyone... for reasons

Augustus wasn't Caesar's child

...

The Legion is just absurd totalitarianism with a very boring and american liberal-conservative understanding of ideology.

There is nothing redeemable about them (they are traitors and sadistic even to their allies) but they're still fun for a crazy, gamey video faction. Nothing serious.

He's dug himself into a hole, after his conquests he would need to reform the legion but he's instilled the mythos into his troops that a major deviation from their current morals would probably lead to a split within the legion and have it all break apart as the traditionalists and reformers butt heads

But they're no longer unified by their tribal bonds, they're all under the banner of Caesar's Legion first and foremost.
You might have e.g. Italian ancestors, but you're not an Italian. You're American.

BADASS.

Legally he was

He was right in the way of the mininuke I launched soon as I entered that tent, yeah. Bastards invited me to come talk to them, then attacked me soon as I got near the boat.

Fuck, that's horrid. Makes you appreciate the vanilla Legion outfits a lot more.

There's nothing redeemable about them from a real-life perspective, and even in-game letting them take control of the Dam is a fucking stupid for humanity.

Still, what Caesar achieved as a leader is pretty amazing. It's necessarily totalitarian, he just slaughtered his way to uniting a hundred distinct cultures.

I actually like this.

I've killed him instantly on every single playthrough.

Also to add onto my comment the writers obviously wanted to make the legion "evil" when they have beliefs that don't even make sense if you consider everything else about the legion.

The whole women have no rights in legion society because ??? Don't give me that BS about legion women being brood mares because that is such a ridiculous strategy (dude 16 years later I'l have more soldiers) instead of using females like they do with males as trackers and scouts which they'd have ability in being tribals and barring some impossibility where every tribe he conquered was massively patriarchal and kept women around as broodmares that taking away all rights from women would hurt the stability of the legion instead of improving.

Nah, House was right. He did the NCR a favor by stopping them from expansion that was killing them. And he did everyone a favor by stopping Caesar. All philosophy aside, living in the Legion is fucking atrocious.

There's meant to be no tribe in the Legion but the Legion itself. The Blackfoot were the first and, in a way, the greatest tribe and from them came the rest of the Legion.

If someone knows and cares that they're descended from the first tribe, it means they hold themselves higher than the others. They're "more Legion" than Freedonians, Twisted Hairs or Hangdogs. It's the kind of thinking that could become a problem if they choose to lord it over their fellow Legionaries. It's what Caesar wanted to eliminate from the start and all his efforts failed to get rid of it completely.

Mods were a mistake

I found it cool how in New Vegas the tribals are just some dumb, primitive raiders. Not just some poor victims oppressed by Caesar.

That was not the case in Fallout 2.

>Hey complete stranger, take this extremely important chip to this bunker and blow it up, I'll believe whatever you tell me after that

What shit writing

>Caesar dies
>generals fight each other
>none of them have any idea of what Caesar's true vision was
>Legion and NCR both end up fucked and back to square one

He had his head up his ass.

>The whole women have no rights in legion society because ???

Men have no rights in Legion society either.

When a Fallout 3 dumbass fixes the Legion.

>da Legion is cool, but they also need SUPER mutans, badass ninja women and LAZERS

Just make another faction, retard.

Yes, I completely agree.
Caesar's charisma and separation from his own rhetoric was what was holding the Legion together.
After he died, it's only a downward spiral from there. There's way too many problems that can only be seen from an outside perspective.
Again, though, I think he did the right thing with the lemons life gave him.
The Blackfoots captured him and wanted to use him as an advisor and military strategist when they realised his training and intelligence. He was just too fucking good at his job.

Men with ability can rise through the ranks of the legion

IIRC Women don't have that option

no

why does bethesda/fallout 3 fans destroy everything they touch?

He's a balding cuck that's Empire will collapse in two ways. Either he keels over from that tumor or he runs out of people to Conquer and refill the population.
They can't go east because spears and machetes will get themselves fucked by the Brotherhood army armed with gauss miniguns and power armor.

/thread

If you agree with Caesar you are just the most naive faggot and it literally makes me angry that you cannot see the point. There's literally no difference between him and any dipshit African warlord running around now. He does nothing but bring death and misery to the people of the wasteland but he has the gall to play it up as some righteous act, like Genghis Kahn opening up trade routes to the east or some shit. The fact some people here actually fall for his bullshit, how fucking simple are you? I understand going full evil play through, but if you think Caesar is right then you need to re-examine your morality

>conquered territory to rival or exceed NCR in half the time
>undisputed leader, to the point of being a god, of an army he personally created out of nothing
>sitting in the middle of his fort surrounded by his elites

It's shit writing when you're an idiot completely detached from the character you're playing. He might be a massive egotist and full of himself but in that situation he has every right to be and every reason to assume that some mailman would do what he says because they're fucking surrounded by die hard fanatics. The only reason the Courier would reasonably tell him to fuck off is because you're there safe and smug in the knowledge that it's a videogame

Fallout 2's story was pretty campy and stupid, I've always disliked it since I was old enough to think about it critically.
I mean, just to pick one thing, an educated Vault dweller starts a community and within a hundred years they're back to stone idols and shamanism? Fuck off.

I can understand groups isolated since the Great War becoming tribals, but come on.

You're wrong. Women being beneath men in a brutal society is pretty logical. And it was form thousand of years.

But even in Islam, they pretend to honor the obedient wife. Being a mother is honored even in the most sexist of cultures in all of history.

You need this for society to function in the real world. The pretense.

The Legion needed to be cartoonish. Nothing more than absurd totalitarianism. Which is boring.

to be fair, the vault dweller ended up being revered as some god.

Never shoulda come here!

Think about it like a hive of insects.
You've got soldiers (Legionaries), workers (slaves) and drones (breeding women).

Anything beyond that is superfluous. It's a civilisation stripped of culture and humanity.
In a way it's almost like Caesar's expression of contempt for the tribals that captured and forced him to join them.

100% yes

>becoming tribals
See, the real problem with Fallout 2 is making everyone equate "tribal" with "primitive, backward savages"

New Vegas is full of tribals and none of them are remotely that backward

to be fair new vegas/most of nevada was significantly more modernized than OG new california

>mailman that came back from the dead and walked across a radioactive desert leaving a trail of corpses in his wake to find the guy who shot him
>shows up at your door step wearing a mobile tank

>hurr im kaiser
>i have a power fist
>my elite guards have bb guns and sharpened street signs
>do as I say

From the perspective of people living in Klamath, they would think of them as primitive, backward savages. It was a ham-fisted Native American/settler relations plot export.

The higher you rise in the Legion, the more dangerous your life becomes. By the time you reach Centurion, your life is tied to the performance of your subordinates as well. You might get a cushy house and a personal slave to molest but if your soldiers meet unexpected resistance and fail, it's you who's getting beaten to death to make a point

Besides which, it would be silly not to reward good slaves with promotion to less demanding or hazardous work. They'd need at least a little more incentive than beatings or crucifixion to do their jobs well. Someone on the brink of getting a better job is harder to convince to rebel than someone with a future of nothing but beating and rape to look forward to

The vault dweller was educated, but the community he started was made of the descendants of mixed race latin american whatever's. Modern day latin americans practice stone idols and shamanism so...

I always end up killing him and the rest of his shit camp pretty much immediately I get there, too bad there's not much response to it in game, you'd think there'd be more pomp about the high command of a military threat being wiped out and not just a brief radio mention.

I think there are 2 types of tribals. The tribals from Fallout 2 and the army of the Legion - these are the super primitive tribals.

And then there are other "tribals", from the Strip (Khans, the Families). They can still function in normal society, but they have their own tribal ways.

Mr. House and the NCR can train the tribals from the Strip easily (and even then, House had ton of problems with them).
But they will have real hard job with the tribals from Arizona. Most of them can't even speak english.

Doesn't change that only men have the option to do it, even though you hear about that NCR soldier that beats legion boys up in the arena.

So he sat in his house all day and didn't share the wonders of critical thinking with them? You'd think if he was highly respected enough to become a tribal god, they'd listen to what he said.
Unless what he said was to urge them to live in tents and eat mud all day. They haven't even established trade with nearby communities, and they think that the PipBoy is magic.

Can someone redpill me on The Strip Open and Freeside Open?

ayo hol up
*puts on football padding*
so you be sayin'
*polishes machete*
that we
*gets blown up in Boulder City*
wuz motherfuckin'
*dies of cancer*
romans n shiet?

Listen.. mexico..today..

The wonders of the information age and what they choose to do with it.

Trump was supposed to prevent it.

WE IZ POX RAMA N SHIIIEEEEEETTT!
On a side note somebody post the NV edit of this.

I installed it and my verdict is it's not really necessary
on a modern computer the loading times are non-existent anyway
it's incompatible with a few mods and it's given me a few crashes since NV's memory management is complete dicks anyway without the added stress

I can't argue with that.

A tribe is nothing more than a family of families, united together through common cause, adversity and often some kind of symbol or ideology that sets them apart from other tribes or societies. The Western Brotherhood of Steel is a tribe, the Boomers too. It's the most basic form of human society and the basis of everything the species has ever done.

It has nothing to do with technological progress, the fact that many tribes in Fallout are backwards is because of the end of the world. They're tribal because it was a nescessity to survive, the loss of knowledge was a unfortunate but unrelated to how they formed their societies

THE CAESAR HAS MARKED YOU FOR DEATH AND THE LEGION OBEYS! READY YOURSELF FOR BATTLE!

I agree, but they're only called "tribals" in a negative light by non-tribals.
Again, it's just a mirror for Native American/settler prejudice in Fallout 2, just not done particularly well.

>he doesn't know about Yakub
If it weren't for us you wouldn't even exist cumskin

easy caps

So realistically which ending is most likely canon?

And, of course, by "non-tribals" I mean people living in an approximation of pre-War society.
I'm not disagreeing that nearly all communities would be more correctly called tribal in Fallout.

...

You mean denarius.

The only good ending is Yes-Man, the Courier is pretty much a walking god by the end of the journey, full access to Big MT, etc

>the fire that burned inside him was love of his family
dammit josh

It's the best ending if you assume the Courier is sane and intelligent, definitely.
Everyone else is just out for personal gain or in the case of House, self-aggrandizement.
The Courier could actually turn the Mojave into a thriving independent nation.
My autistic headcanon is the Courier instates the nation of New Mojave.

But Caesar isn't some dumb tribal and what he wants to do is conquer a bunch of land and then create his empire with New Vegas as the capital.

Having 50 percent of your population be broodmares doesn't make any sense at all and it doesn't even benefit his original goal of forging the legion into a professional army since the payoff for broodmares will take a lot longer.

Caesar pushed a code that the legion is life, and strength is truth but then he goes counter to his own morals with women because ??? Its never really explained why he doesn't use female trackers and scouts which after conquering a bunch of tribes he would have at his disposal. We see plenty of other tribes and factions with females in positions in power so I don't buy the reasoning of all women were already broodmares

Now I don't think Caesar would survive trying to reforge the legion but that's besides the point

it just feels shoehorned by the writers so you know that THA LEGION R BAD!!

You're right, I'm just playing devil's advocate.
I fucking hate the Legion and I think that such an interesting concept deserved both content and more logic.
Not enough grey.

I think this is a testament to how good the themes were in New Vegas.

Most games have little to no thematic direction, even the most complex story-driven games can be devoid of engaging themes, like Metro 2033. There is very little to discuss about that game, even though it's still a phenomenal singleplayer game.
Other games can go overboard on the themes, like SOMA, which tried to raise too many philosophical points at once.

>even though you hear about that NCR soldier that beats legion boys

Which is pretty unrealistic, just like the existence of NCR female rangers (not soldiers since they'll take anyone they can get) is unrealistic. But it's a video game, what can you do.

Yeah, I think it's just there to make them even more caroonishly evil.
Maybe it could have some interesting duality with how different Joshua and his two adopted tribes are if it was just about erasure of identity and cruelty, but it's way over the top.

If she can aim properly and use a knife, why wouldn't a woman be effective in combat?
The rangers are mostly spec-ops, sniping and recon, a woman could do fine in those roles.
She doesn't have to go toe-to-toe with a Legionary in a machete fight.

Everything about the Legion is temporary. It's not going to survive because it's not meant to.

The Legion isn't going to change much if it ever conquers NCR, it will go from an offensive army to a defensive one. The reliance on slave labour will probably be toned down because the soldiers will have less to do when not constantly on the march and fighting the enemy of the week.

Also I think you're getting entirely too worked up over the place of women. Life in the Legion is shitty for all involved, it's just shitty in different ways because of their different roles.

I don't know why you'd think specifically that females all being slaves is the "THA LEGION R BAD!!" aspect and not the fact they have child soldiers and child slaves.

Legion literally has cannon fodder troops up front and a spy and scouting division, it's just retarded on their part, regardless about your opinion on real life female elite soldiers.
There's should've been more females in 1st recon though, they make pretty damn good snipers.

I don't care about the status of women in a fictional world, what I don't like is the fact that their treatment of women runs counter to their own values which when added with a bunch of other things in the game make the legion feel very 1 dimensional and not fleshed out compared to other factions


Taking slaves makes sense for the legion and the legions goals. You can find that unforgivable but you'd be lying if you said you didn't understand the logic of it

Little off topic but same game.

Anyone know the dead money glitch where you can bring combat armor in from the Mojave? Discovered this purely on accident when i first started the game but i was wondering if its a well known thing.

Legion doesn't have self sustainability. They dont farm or grow crops or produce any kinds of resources they most literally cannot defeat the NCR.

No, how do you do that?
I mean, if I wanted it I'd just use player.additem but I'm interested.

Caesar was hoping to use the Dam to establish a capital in New Vegas, where he'd start the process of turning the Legion from a nomadic nation to an established one.
He got a massive brain tumour and encountered unexpected resistance, though, so by the time of New Vegas the entire plan was a bust anyway.

With so many women going in the meat grinder in Nevada, the birthrate of the NCR must be in the shitter realistically.
The NCR not thinking in the long run just for some patch of land.

I think not forcing women in combat (outside of the slavery and rape) was one of the Legion good points.

Oh so its not well known? Yeah this doesn't use console commands. The thing with the programming of dead money is it can remove most items in game EXCEPT quest items. If you get to new vegas at a high enough level you can get a 100 lockpick (fairly easy). Go to the van graff store and pick the lock to the armor case ourside next to the guard. Take the van graff combat armor before starting the quest where they give you said armor. Now the armor is logged as a quest item and cannot be removed from your inv. Thus enabling you to bring it into dead money.

Their stated values in the game are "men and women have different roles to fulfil in society" and "the greater good takes precedent over the individual"

It doesn't matter if some women could be useful in combat situations. They're not an individualist society like NCR, they don't care about statistical outliers and 'potential'. Men do one thing, women do another, that's all there is to it for the Legion.

Neat. Useful on consoles, I guess.

With fallout, considering every person has special stats I take it within the suspension of my disbelief for the world that women can be the equal of man in strength endurance ect.

>She doesn't have to go toe-to-toe with a Legionary in a machete fight.

Wasn't there a meme female ranger killing high ranking Legion soldiers with her bare hands in the arena? That was pretty stupid.

was he wrong?

To remove from your inv. Simply complete the van graff questline. Discovered this before i really got into the game, just playing around and didn't know how to remove the armor so i went to dead money, ended up with a decent set of combat armor

Yeah or people that dont want to absolutely break their game by CCing a set. Also the reason i posted is im hoping anyone would have some ideas on a quest item thats a semipowerful weapon, using this glitch and the ammo sub glitch i can get something like a .44 or maybe a rifle into the dead money area which would be nice scince im a poorfag on console

I wouldn't be surprised, "progressive" diatribe gets shoved in your face constantly in modern media.
Still, a woman can definitely be an elite soldier.
She can't fight professional male soldiers, trained from birth in hand-to-hand combat, with her bare hands, though. Let alone multiple male soldiers. That is retarded.

Ain't nothing wrong with getting some Legionary boypussy in between sessions of hanging profligates.

Theres the biological aspect. Vagina and "muh gurl power" cant beat biological advantage.

Originally there was a Priestess caste in the Legion who would be the ones who'd take care of the children. So females wouldn't be just slaves (even though everyone in Legion is one).

I think the way females are portrayed makes sense. Remember, most adult males they capture aren't even taken as slaves but are outright killed because they could potentially rebel.

Adult females wouldn't have this problem, being weaker, and having the burden of pregnancy which would make them dependent on the Legion.