If video games are art, then why isn't there anything that is deeply spiritual or religious? Paintings, literature...

If video games are art, then why isn't there anything that is deeply spiritual or religious? Paintings, literature, film, music, etc, have accomplished this, but no game has.

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>He hasn't played The You Testament

Videogames are a product meant to be sold.

They are not art.

That's a subjective feeling one attains from what you listed. Some video games may inspire this for some people, even if it doesn't do it for you.

> Dark Souls
> Bungie's Halo
> Destiny
> Journey
> Zelda Franchise
>Nier: Automata

Those are just a few off the top of my head. All are deeply spiritual, if not overtly then allegorically. Fucking normies, I swear...

There are, but like most people you're too stupid to recognize when you see it. And no wonder, because public schools don't teach practically anything in the way of religion or mythology. So, only the initiated will understand.

>Paintings, literature, film, music
eat shit, asshole
those shits are fucking boring

Videogames have the potential to be art, but not all videogames are art. Not all films are art. Not all paintings or drawings are art. Some are products meant to be sold. Some are decoration. Some are art: Self-serving works of technical and intellectual proficiency. Art does not mean "good" either. It's a category.

So are paintings, literature, film, music, etc.

>implying

A little on the nose, but decent bait.

Video occurred during an age where we realized worshiping sky wizards is dumb as hell so there is less of a push towards it.

>spiritual and religious

C&C:Generals had jihad jeeps and suicide bombers, thats as religious as it gets imo.

>he thinks life happened by chance

Maybe because paintings, literature, film and music were created when religion was important in the west

>Thinking planet earth is made by some dude in the sky
All we are is dust in the wind user, our planet is but a grain of sand in the universe. We're not important

>He subscribes to theories that have zero supporting evidence.

>He thinks it was created by the god that he specifically believes in

like global warming

>what is TLOU?
>what is TW3?
>what is Bloodborne?

go back to your cúck threads Sup Forums, noone wants you here.

It's a new medium, and those feelings are much more difficult to convey through interactivity than it being explained to you.

How does music contain anything deeply spiritual or religious? It's just sounds, they have no inherent themes or meaning, it's all projected by the listener.

I bet you think the Earth is spherical too.

>Idols
>vidya

lol nope

if you've looked into the complexity of life and dna present in all forms of life, life happening by chance is like a tornado passing through a scrapyard and forming a fully functioning boeing 747, it's ridiculous

Lyrics can deliver a spiritual .message in the most literal way

The phenomena of music is, in and of itself, self-evidently and inherently spiritual.

Some games are pretty symbolic
Planescape Torment
Halo
Pathologic
Unironically Undertale
New Vegas dlc's
The Void

>what is TLOU?
a piece of shit that meets the bare minimum requirement of being a game, and if it were a movie it would get laughed out of the theaters

In what way? Why can't that be applied to just about anything including video games?

If you calculate the odds, it's not unbelievable that it could happen for as long as the earth has existed. And there are micro aliens we've found on other planets. So this is a more common thing than we think or we just don't understand it yet

I'm talking about Bach, Monteverdi, Tallis, etc. Not rock music. Classical music started as church music.

ok cúckboi

off you go now

I'm laughing if you think any of the Souls games are pro-religious.

RULES OF NATURE

Life took billions of years to get as complex as it is today, it didn't just "happen". The first living things were just mindless cells.

there are "aliens" everywhere, our point of attention is focused only on "visible" light which is a fraction of what makes up the universe

>implying dark souls isn't an allegory for Buddhism and the constant cycle of death and rebirth

Music is a human universal. Almost everybody likes music, on some level.

Why is that? There must be something pretty deeply meaningful about it in order for it to resonate with so many people so naturally. And that thing is: ordered chaos. That's what music is, fundamentally.

(Roughly speaking, of course).

pro-religious != spiritual

learn the difference before you shitpost

>what is Passage

Because they were made at a time when people were more religious and spiritual than they are now.
Also because games are at the equivalent of silent films and are still a novelty.

I just finished the Talos Principle yesterday. If there's any game that's about religion it's that one.

>it's a "Sup Forums tries to discuss religion and spirituality" episode

>he thinks it didnt

Whats more believable, something with a low chance of happening, ACTUALLY happening after octillions of years

Or

Magic man in the sky

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

The Souls game's stance one way or the other on religion is beside the point; the point is they are heavily inspired by religious ideas on multiple levels of analysis from plot to gameplay.

>Magic man in the sky
how to spot an under aged

The times are different. Religion and spirituality aren't the same things they were in the past, and making non-contemporary comparisons between forms of media is a disingenuous form of criticism.

There's also the matter of what actually qualifies as something deeply spiritual. But I'd rather not get into that discussion here.

Yeah that's true of any medium people enjoy, how does it make it spiritual though?

not really
most of the music is created for money, pretty much all movies, but paintings and literature are mostly created just because

Run that same tornado running through that same junkyard over and over again for trillions of years

I guarantee something would happen eventually

>not rock music

>arguing over God

just smoke DMT you can speak with them quiet easily

>what are Hymns
>what are church choir arrangements

Sick deflection, you just hate that im right and you know it

nope, book makers want those to sell so they don't have to do their "normal job" and painters want their first piece to start to sell more than 1k so they can live large, artists often spend their money awfully but they still want money

Well, yes, maybe, but music is different from 'any medium people enjoy' for reasons I've already explained. I think what sets music apart, aside being one of the oldest medium, is that it does its job so well.

but guys did it to be living big pimpin life, it paid well

hurr what be bioshock

If you're talking about renaissance era artwork, you're completely wrong. Most "religious masterpieces" from that time were simply commissions.

Truly a smart game for smart gamers
youtube.com/watch?v=l_u18_BKczg

but it almost never happens yet people continue to do it for years
You can argue that's they think "maybe this time it works" but there has to be something else that smoetimes drives them to improve for decades before getting succesful, if ever
I'm actually talking about current situation. Tho it is kinda weird how all these detailed statues and paintings were just products

what the fuck is happening lately?
Sup Forums is so contrarian and afraid of being lumped in with bad fanbases (euphoric atheists) that we're pretending to be devout 6000-year-old Earth creationists now?

>Why is that? There must be something pretty deeply meaningful about it in order for it to resonate with so many people so naturally.
Most people enjoy music because we're a social species of animal that relies heavily on verbal communication. Organized noise is something we're adapted to understanding.
Other animals that use verbal communication also get a response from music as well, does that make them spiritual?

check my 5

Well, they're alive, so I'd say yes even if they don't respond to music. Now, that doesn't mean they have a 'divine spark' like human beings do; that's what makes them animals and not people.

In modern times religious artwork is 100% done for money, or if it's not, it's because the person producing the work is already wealthy enough to not have to give a shit.
>Tho it is kinda weird how all these detailed statues and paintings were just products
What's weird about it? If an authoritative figure gave you money, food, shelter, clothing, etc in exchange for pretty murals and statues, you'd probably put all your effort into making the best looking shit as well.

Most games are made primarily for profit. While many of the great works in history were financed by wealthy patrons (including the church), the artist primarily devoted their works to God. This usually meant there was much greater care and investment in the work, since it was itself an act of worship. These days it's just a bunch of dimwits churning out garbage for profit as quickly as possible.

Allow me to BTFO half the nogs ITT in a single greentext:
>the fundamental defining quality of art is the means of its production

b-but muh artist intent!

And the religious elements of their music are projected by the people.
You can't pick a musical characteristic of any of their pieces and say "that's about religion" because music is not a narrative art form.
They can say whatever they want about wanting to glorify God and being inspider by their divine grace, their music only sounds religious to us by association.

well in todays society there is welfare n shit

I am of the persuasion that the true artistic merit of vidya cannot be seen, except by programmers, for it consists only in code. It's experienced inside player's heads, unconsciously. It's what you do while playing: the buttons you press, the thoughts you think. When a game generally strikes a nearly perfect blend of that, it's good art.

Sounds pretty fedora

Programmers won't necessarily see the beauty of the game they've created, hell look at how many times glitches considered shitty by the programmers ended up improving the experience for the players. The ones who see the merit are dedicated players that engage with the games on a deeper level.

>music is not a narrative art form
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Program_music

Why do plebs even bother responding? If you think sacred chants, masses, etc, explicitly depicting biblical moments aren't religious then that simply means you bluntly disbelieve in God.

Programmatic music was adding narrative concepts on extra musical stuff like the title of the oevre.
I could link you any Liszt piece without giving you the name and you'd have no clue what it's about.

WEW LADS

We aren't talking about symphonic music here (you're still wrong with you claim, as composers used music study and theory to give their music specific themes) though. We are talking about music which has explicit narrative themes, like in operas, oratorios, and masses.

This thread makes me sad. Normal Sup Forums today is worse than Sup Forums-under-raid was years ago. What the fuck happened to this site and it's userbase. Jesus fucking Christ things went to shit.
I miss the sekrit klub.

>what the fuck is happening lately?
>lately
Sup Forums has always strove to be contrarian to a fault, even if it makes them look stupid. From there, the "I was just pretending to be retarded XXDD" culture we've fallen into allows for retards to roleplay as flat-worlders, creationists, SJWS, Sup Forumsfags, and any other brand of complete retard in the hopes of trolling someone as the hip new "height of counter-culture" (read: a complete fucking retarded).

I lurked Sup Forums only for a few years but even I saw that decline of the quality

It's hard to present anything religious or spiritual in a game without risking trivializing it. There are games that crib religious mythology, and there are games that deal with religion as a topic through fantasy analogies, but there isn't any explicit religious propaganda that's popular in the medium.

To be fair religious movies and religious music aren't really mainstream popular either.

Also lol religion tiptiptiptiptiptiptiptiptiptiptiptip

>We are talking about music which has explicit narrative themes, like in operas, oratorios, and masses.
But the music doesn't have explicit narrative themes, to add that narrative element to the composition it needs to be aided by other mediums superposed on it.
Operas are a mix of theatre and music, and all the narrative elements are conveyed through theatre, even if opera compositions are a mix of leitmotivs that follow the narrative structure of the work, those leitmotivs isolated have no narrative to them, you wouldn't know what they represent without knowing the work beforehand.
And oratorios/masses, or in general, lyrical music is being helped by phoetry/prose sung by the singer.
Even if the human voice is an instrument like any other, the lyrics of a particular piece are absolutely interchangeable between any others with the same metric, since the four musical characterstics of any note on a vocal line (timbre, tone, duration and magnitude) are independent of the syllable that's being spoken.

Composers study theory because music tells musical stories, a classical composition is an intermingling of themes that evolve and relate to each other in intricate ways, but those musical ideas are not narrative, and in fact, other than Wagner and a few others, plenty of musicians that composed operas and that kind of stuff only composed the music, and someone else wrote the mediums from which the narrative was to be conveyed.

Even if you were to say that at that point you can't separate the music from the narrative medium, the fact is that for any piece like that you can change the narrative being conveyed through any other and as long as the musical elements stay the same it'll work literally the same, so even if the composer intended to make music to elevate God and to tell a story, it doesn't change the fact that he needed to add an extramusical element to convey it, because music alone is uncapable of telling stories without external suggestion.

kek

>If video games are art, then why isn't there anything that is deeply spiritual or religious?
Hardware collectors are fairly religious people in their own ways, if that's what you're talking about here.

I think it's just the general culture of the internet changing.
The ironic meme-culture that's now encompassed the entire internet is fucking cancer. It was fine when it a meme was relegated to a just one or two sites, just being another part of that general culture, but when everyone on the whole internet shares the same fucking memes it just becomes stale as fuck, overdone, and worthless. Nothing has a unique identity anymore so people just do whatever they can to give their site a unique feel, not matter how fucking cancerous their methods they use to do so are.

Jesus Christ, if Sup Forums wasn't so caught up in their own retarded fantasies and circle-jerks, you'd think they'd use the current state of the internet as an example of how globalism and a one-world culture are fucking cancer. Oh well, I suppose Sup Forums not being complete fucking cancer is something that'll never happen.

Not like they fucking care about the site going to shit. They import just as many fucking redditors to be their personal army as they think "da jews" import minorities. Fucking hypocritical cunts. Gas the fucking lot of them.

Yes I'm mad

>spiritual or religious
Why are you mixing up trash with art?

Convince me why lyrics, tonality, pitch, speed, sequencing, etc, are "external" and maybe I would agree.

What exactly is your criteria for deeply spiritual or religious?

For example, despite it being made up, Silent Hill is extremely religious on an occult basis.

I'd also consider Journey to be a 'spiritual' game.

Video games aren't art. Movies aren't art.

Music is an artform that is based on sounds.
Sounds are mechanical waves, music is altering their natural characteristics, and there are only four:
- Amplitude, which relates to the dynamic of the note.
- Duration, which relates to the rhythm of the note in relation to the rest.
- Frequency, which relates to the tone, and even if there are infinite sequences, on the western 14-tone system we only use multiples of the same 14 for no logical reason at all, just tradition.
- Number of harmonics, which relates to the timbre, something inherent to the instrument.

For music to be a narrative artform, it should be capable of telling a story through purely sound, which means codifying a story with these four attributes.
And even if that is possible (it's really not that different from EM communication), the end result would be atrocious music, the beauty would be surely lost.

With lyrical music, the information is codified in the syllables that are being sung, however, the syllables aren't music simply because for any song, you can change them with something else, and even if the replacement doesn't make any sense (scat singing), musically it'll remain the same, you'll be capable of singing the new lyrics with the same timbre/tone/rhythm/dynamic.

What this means is that in a lyrical song we have two things that are not dependent on each other: the music depends on the afore mentioned 4 qualities and if you change a note it'll alter the rest, creating dissonance, or a different melody/harmony, however, the story being told will still be the same.
And the reverse is true as I've already said, if you change the lyrics of the song to tell a different story, you won't create any dissonance or new consonance, you won't change anything at all musically.
This independence of the narrative and the music is what allowed plenty of composers like Tchaikovsky to compose operas and delegate the libretto entirely to a different person.

>one picture is art
>millions of pictures together to project a higher meaning is not

say what you want about video games but leave the movies out of it

Videogames are probably the medium with the most potential for art since it basically has most of the other artforms inbued into it. Also, the most interactivity.

You can't deny it.

I know Dark Souls has been mentioned a few times, but I think something that isn't lauded as much as it should be is the transcendent concept of "hollowing".

The adversity/difficulty is relentless, the cycle of dying and coming back again taking its toll on you as the player, eroding your sanity, reflecting your character. To give in and give up is to hollow. Your character in game is the vessel, but only by your own volition, fortitude, and preservation of hope can your learn, adapt, and triumph.

>not all videogames are art. Not all films are art. Not all paintings or drawings are art.
Yes they are. "Art" doesn't necessarily mean something sets out to be sophisticated or even good.

>he hasn played mgq

>"Let there be Big Bang!"
What's funny is that the Big Bang was originally rejected because they thought it sounded too religious.

You know, it's actually possible to not be an atheist and also not be a creationist who thinks Earth is 6,000 years old.

I agree with this. It's just unfortunate that games haven't really fulfilled that potential yet.