ITT: Good games that inadvertently ruined their series

ITT: Good games that inadvertently ruined their series

...pic not related, I assume?

MGS2 was just about to kill the whole franchise.
>Tranq-gun turned the game into stealth-FPS, instead of avoiding guards and shit.
>Lets sit in a Codec screen so we don't have to animate FMVs.
>"It's supposed to be ART!" excuses for shitty level design, pacing problems and lackluster, literal rehash plot with no conclusion.
>Literal bishonen as the ""real"" MC, just to attract girls to the game.

Resident Evil 4

Explain.

You probably have no idea what OP means, MGS3 and 2 are both great games, but 3 started trends which maybe are the reasons why the series is bad now.
>more action
>focus on Big Boss
>open environment
>slow sneaking
>camo
>easy
>more weapons
>no futuristic setting
>less Metal Gear
There is nothing wrong with the tranq-gun in MGS2, but it made MGS3 too easy

>no futuristic setting
>focus on Big Boss
These two are what ruined it all

>open environment
>slow sneaking
>camo
>easy
>more weapons
>no futuristic setting
>any of those
>bad
Open environment can suck if there's nothing in it.
Slow sneaking can suck if doesn't have any tension.
Camo can suck if it's done like 3 ever again and not how 4 or even 5 handled it.
>implying the entire series is not easy as hell until you start restricting game mechanics like radar in vents or dying upon being spotted
More weapons only suck if you're given unrestrained access to them, their modifications, and their ammo like in 4.
The setting in 3 was 10/10 and seeing shit like the irl scrapped hovercraft working in game was great and they should have expanded on that instead of just having futuristic technology in the past.
Your post is really dumb.

>You probably have no idea what OP means,
Oh, I do. It's exactly what you described: started trends that were beaten to death + some more, and ultimately resulted a clusterfuck mess towards the end.

MGS2 broke the series way more than any sequel. The sequels actually tried their best to nerf out some of MGS2's bullshit, especially when it came to the OP tranq-gun and overall sniping of enemies from afar.

The low-tech setting was exactly what the series needed, and helped focus on the STEALTH.

>There is nothing wrong with the tranq-gun in MGS2
It is THE game where it is THE most wrong.
Laser-accurate, with laser-sighting, perfectly silent, and ammo pops up everywhere.

>Tranq-gun turned the game into stealth-FPS, instead of avoiding guards and shit.
calling bs on this one, it's better sneaking than shooting everyone with tranq because HQ keep calling radio for sitrep every couple of minute

The series sucked from the beginning user.

Don't you have Sonic threads to post in?

>Oh, I do
No, you don't. You are crtisizing MGS2 for things that didn't become a trend later on. Except for the tranq-gun, which is debatable. MGS3 was more broken with it because of the open environment and the camo, making it too easy to sit in some bush and headshotting guards that rarely reported to the HQ. At least in MGS2 many areas are really tight and getting out of cover was a dangerous move itself.
>Laser-accurate
user, you can headshot guards with the tranq-gun in MGS3 from a mile with the binoculars. Remember this trick?

I agree 100%. I still think that MGS4 is a better whole game than MGSV. It's a downwards trend from here on out unless they (whoever they is now) bring the gameplay back to being like MGS1 again.

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Yes, you do have it.

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>it's better sneaking than shooting everyone with tranq because HQ keep calling radio for sitrep every couple of minute
Yeah, in ONE (1) room in the entire MGS2.
And even with the sitreps, you just hide the sleeping beauty and yourself when the check-up party arrives, and they'll soon leave as if everything was fine.

>You are crtisizing MGS2 for things that didn't become a trend later on.
That's the whole point, mate.
RE4 was not a shit game, and even old fans praise(d) it, but since the sequels recycled yet streamlined its design even further, "everyone" now seems to hate it.

>MGS3 was more broken with it because of the open environment and the camo
MGS3 was and still is considered a MUCH more challenging game, especially on your first time, because of the lack of Radar, enemies that blend better in the environment, and also posses actually decently long line of sight. Not to mention you no longer got laser sights, so you gotta deal with irons, plus your suppressors wear down with use, making you even more detectable if you blast away.

>Remember this trick?
no.

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This applies to 90% of the people in this thread.

>Yeah, in ONE (1) room in the entire MGS2.
>>Remember this trick?
>no.
I'm questioning if you even played these games.

This is a dumb complaint.
It's not the good game's fault that the next game shat the bed trying to do similar things.
It's not Resident Evil 4's fault that 5 is what it is.
It's not Reach's fault that Halo 4 is what it is.
It's not the Wii's fault that Sony and Microsoft ended up infesting Gen 7 with horribly forced motion control add ons.

This nigga gets it.

I played all of the MG games as they came out originally, then again later on on both PS2 and recently via HD Collection on PS3, when hype for V was starting.

I just did not actively seek game-breaking tricks, and always played it "safe".

This

I agree, because what came after basically ruined all the story.
>Snake was made old and no longer usable as MC material
>All focus suddenly went on Big Boss
>All the prequels that happened that contradict previous lore
>Snake now has a short life compared to all his friends so they'll ultimately outlive him.
>All this shit that was tied together in a shit fashion.
>Needing to have almost every character from 3 in 4.

I question why Boss has to know everyone's parents
>Met Liquid's parents
>Knows Snake's mom
>Knows Otacon's dad
>Met Snake's boss
Also there's another thing which kinda brings down the whole MG/MGS experience, which is that all the tech from Peace Walker to MGSV is far,far more futuristic then anything MGS1, let alone MGS2 had.

Once you realize MGS ended at 4 you can safely forget the prequels even exist with the exception of 3.

I'm surprised this wasn't the first post

>I agree because of a completely unrelated incident

>Everything else in the thread ruined their series
>But the Orange Box ruined the entire company.

this ended up ruining the series because 4 had to explain the clusterfuck of the plot

4 would've been fine if it simply followed up on what 2 presented

but Kojima pussied out and made the Patriots Big Bosses roomates, so technically 3 had more to do with the downfall than 2 ever did.

2 introduced the shitty Patriot plot so it's 2's fault and 3 was forced into the mess.

Nah, 2 did its job. 3 was Kojima trying to avoid the problem since he didnt beleive he could really back it up.

2 had a job?

more than 3 ever did, actually

How do people enjoy MGS2?
>Worst level design in the series, rivaling some of the shittiest sections of MGS4
>Characters are one-dimensional cutouts to cradle muh narrative
>The boss fights are tedious and awful compared to literally anything else in MGS 1-4
>Most of the game is comprised of an easter egg hunt and an escort mission
>Big Shell, for being a simulation of Shadow Moses, lacked even a 10th of its unique atmosphere
>Metal Gear Ray was shoehorned in and utterly not threatening because hurr Arsenal Gear
>The boss faction of the game is so bad that the other boss factions probably wouldn't let them sit at the same lunch table as them
>Those Raiden and Rose codecs interrupting the game with stupid shit like "defusing a bomb is like a relationship, you know?"
I mean seriously, fuck MGS2. Yeah the ending payoff was some cool shit and the Patriots call was particularly amazing but it's doesn't quite make up for the rest of the game in the end and I wish MGS2 fags would get over "muh narrative" when they criticize 3 or 4.

That's what inadvertently means. These games didn't ruin their series on purpose, it was an accident.

>>Worst level design in the series
Thanks for starting with this, made me stop reading.

>>Those Raiden and Rose codecs interrupting the game with stupid shit like "defusing a bomb is like a relationship, you know?"
I skipped those because they got fucking annoying.

>Yeah the ending payoff was some cool shit
the payoff was bullshit

>Dude what if we made a big circle out of nothing but octagonal rooms
>And then we made another one...And stuck them together

dude, Big Shell overall was crap and some individual struts were the worst.

Not to mention you had to seek out the map rooms with no indication where they or any guards were.

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This.
I was simply confused by it back then when it came out, but the technical marvel was more than enough to keep me entertained at such young age. Upon replaying it via HD collection and understanding it a bit better, I seriously have to question why the fuck can't people see the glaring flaws and absolutely terrible gameplay.

Everything after the Tanker is terrible, mate.
Just try to prove me wrong.

>complaining about map rooms
holy christ what a casual
the whole fucking point of them is to make you be extra cautious when entering a new area

The tanker mission was the epitome of what good level design, good story build up (intro), good enemy placement and interaction with them and overall good game design is.
Then we got raiden and 10 minutes into the game some vampire asshole shows up and the game went to shit. Like, I stopped playing the hd remake directly after wards and have no intention to play any mgs game. It killed all the lust for the series I still had left wow what a piece of shit of a game.

MGS2 makes up for the wonky level design of Big Shell with all the VR missions

it has the most bang for your buck of any MGS by far

>with all the VR missions

optional shit.

Yep. And all the good MGS games have them

but for some reason MGSV tried to pass off side missions as mainline

metroid fusion

>it has the most bang for your buck of any MGS by far
With the sheer replayability of MGS3? I doubt it. I played through the main four games again a couple of years ago and took some extra time with MGS3 because I ended up playing it about 5 or 6 times consecutively going through it in new ways with new extras every time.

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there's being cautious and then there is checking a corner, seeing no one, go to move and then a guy is there out of the blue

I didnt care much for 3's style of stealth but I do respect how expansive it is in its own ways.

I'd still say MGS2 eeks out more playtime from the sheer level of content though

maybe you should have waited longer?
mgs2 guards aren't exactly intelligent, they walk a set path

>maybe you should have waited longer?

I was waiting, saw no one, and went. Then got caught. Doesn't help I had no radar due to a shit game mechanic in this bad game

yeah the game's bad, not you

I'm the guy who originally made that rant against MGS2 and while I honestly don't care about the map thing (I even forgot about it), the way you're presenting your argument right now is kinda DSP-tier. If you need to complain about how arbitrary it is to collect the map schematics, it's more efficient to say that it's a pain in the ass only because MGS2's fucked up camera angles combined with its tight, corridor-like entry points that restrict your view make it cumbersome. Because that part is true.

It is MGS3's fault The Boss exists and is a super shitty character, even in MGS3.

The Boss is a walking plot hole. There is no reason the Boss and her team could not have eliminated Volgin and secured the Legacy from the beginning, and still avoided nuclear Armageddon. Kojima just wanted some tits for BB to cry about.

>t's more efficient to say that it's a pain in the ass only because MGS2's fucked up camera angles combined with its tight, corridor-like entry points that restrict your view make it cumbersome.

which can be summed up as "bad level design"

mixed feelings the game.

>I wish MGS2 fags would get over "muh narrative" when they criticize 3 or 4.
The hilarious thing is that MGS2 is the Neon Genesis Evangelion of games. Kojima admitted he did not have some narrative about technology and post-modernism in mind, he just threw in shit he thought sounded cool.

It was all the fans, in their desperation to defend the shit pile that is MGS2's narrative, that came up with any "meaning" in it.

MGS3 was the best of the series. I could see an argument for 2, but it's no 4.

>...pic not related, I assume?

OP did say good games.

I know you're used to 'level design' meaning 'generate a big map and drop some buildings on it' but MGS2 is ACTUAL level design. The levels are designed to work with the camera and the controls.

>but MGS2 is ACTUAL level design
and it's crap.

> The levels are designed to work with the camera and the controls.
and yet it felt like I was struggling against both when trying to deal with the level design.

Actual level design flows and funnels you from one key point to another, one area to another in a seamless fashion. MSG2's level design makes you feel like you're trapped going in circles on a big merry-go-round as you spray down bombs with deodorant. What fun.

>Kojima admitted he did not have some narrative about technology and post-modernism in mind, he just threw in shit he thought sounded cool

That's some hot source you provided.

so why the fuck do we hate MGS4?

we don't.

Elitist MGS2 fans pissed that 4 shat all over 2 are.
*makes Raiden a better character (he was unbearable in 2)
*removes any interaction with the Patriots (which was a dumb thing to do in the first place)
*answers the questions that 2 asked

>anons are defending explaining everything with nanomachines
Sup Forums has changed.

its better than no explanation that MGS2 left us with

MGS2 is a work of art.

Nanomachines are memed to hell and back but what did they really even explain in 4 besides Vamp? Other than Vamp they retconned absolutely nothing and were an isolated plot device mostly exclusive to that game.

And then Valve ruined the entire industry
It's like poetry, Gaben is the key to everything

Ocelots arm possession.

nanomachines were not involved with that.

He just brainwashed himself into thinking he was possessed after replacing Liquid's arm

Don't ask me how exactly, but nanomachines were involved in this, too.

>MGS3 was and still is considered a MUCH more challenging game, especially on your first time, because of the lack of Radar
>you had to seek out the map rooms with no indication where they or any guards were.
So when MGS3 does it's a good thing but when MGS2 does it it's shit?

MGS3 does not have the map node crap.

Ocelot's arm possession was a combination of drugs and self-hypnosis. Iirc his plan was literally to pretend to be retarded (i.e. convincingly play out the role of Liquid) because he knew the Patriot system would underestimate someone as incompetent as Liquid, while he subconsciously enacted the real countermeasure under everyone's noses that would have worked if it hadn't been for Sunny and Otacon.

Stupid, but measurably less stupid than somebody being biologically possessed because they had another person's arm grafted onto them. At least Kojima realized that much and walked it back.

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fuck already posted im sorry
heres another

Ocelot was legitimately possessed in MGS2, in MGS4 he replaced it with a mechanical arm but still kept the act.

Ocelot was possessed because he's the Sorrows son and is therefore sensitive to the spooky shit.

>Ocelot was possessed because he's the Sorrows son and is therefore sensitive to the spooky shit.
Nigger, nowhere in the series is the connection even implied much less outright stated and it certainly wasn't on Kojima's mind when MGS2 first rolled out. The original idea was that Ocelot became possessed for no other reason than the fact he had Liquid's arm stapled to him, and fans initially reacted very well to Liquid as a villain so he forced a return in the oddest way possible. I think I much prefer MGS4's thorough if contrived explanation of it.

its in the comic movies of MGS1/2 and more or less implied in MGS4

Kojima basically threw it in there to explain why Oceolot has a metal arm in MGS4, its an asspull but a valid one

What? I saw it the other way around. The second his cybernetic arm was made explicit, I saw it as an outright statement of "the Liquid persona isn't what you originally thought it was". THAT was the asspull but I always thought it was markedly trying to damage control the return of Liquid in MGS2 since Kojima couldn't just forget about it and drop the concept.

Underrated post

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no, 3 was the one that ruined the series because the focus of it went from being a commentary on nuclear war and genes/memes to being about "MUH BOSSS!!!!" shoving the other themes to the side