Should RPG elements be sacrificed for accessibility?

Should RPG elements be sacrificed for accessibility?

What is, in your opinion, the perfect balance?

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from video game companies perspective, yes, making the game more accessible means higher profits

Daggerfall is far more accessable than morrowind. In fact, most games are its crazy how painful morrowind is in enarly all scenariosl.
That art or better said, graphics. Daggerfall is clean 2.5d. Morrowind is just mud.
The movement system, you have tp from the get go, and dont run at snails tempo. Morrowinds tempo is a joke.
The combat system is something similar to how mobile game slasher work and its kinda interesting to say the least. One even have spacing, morrowind is cookie clicker compared to that.
You have huge, random generated cities and dungeons that still are fairly decent to explore. I fucking hated most dungeons in morowind.
I really can not shit on it and it was my first elder scrolls game with daggerfall the last I played.

>making the game more accessible means higher profits
But if you make a game so accessible that it loses what made it a good franchise in the first place, don't you run the risk of alienating your fanbase?

Accessibility directly reduces immersion, however mechanics that are TOO distracting also reduce it.

morrowind with a combat mod that makes every attack a hit.
shareholders and plebs will want max accessibility of course.

Morrowind is not the first Elder Scrolls game?

>Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind

Yeah thats why Skyrim or Fallout 3/4 weren't massively successful right

Mistake #1 - Steep Learning Curves: Tim thinks character creation in Fallout, Arcanum and other RPGs was too complex. He's experimenting with creating a completely numberless character system that uses geometric shapes to visualize attributes.
Mistake #2 - Letting Math Trump Psychology: Revealing the influence of the years he spent developing Wildstar, Tim wants to develop mechanics that are psychologically satisfying and addictive, even at the expense of mathematical elegance. For example, he says the player's first attack against an enemy should always hit even if his overall hit percentage is the same regardless, and that rather than allow players to increase their critical hit chance, they should only be allowed to increase their critical hit damage.
Mistake #3 - Conflating Player Skill With Character Skill: This one will be familiar if you've watched some of Josh Sawyer's talks. Aiming and hitting in an action-RPG should not be determined by character stats. On the other hand, things like the impact of recoil can be affected by stats, as well as the aforementioned critical hit damage.
Mistake #4 - Misunderstanding Randomness: Here Tim lays out his frustration with the sorts of people who can't believe they could miss a 95% chance-to-hit attack three times in a row. His conclusion is that when people talk about "randomness", they often mean selecting a token rather than rolling a dice (ie, events can't repeat themselves).

>replying to the weakest troll attempt in human history

As far as the gameplay goes, Oblivion hit the sweet spot. None of that tiresome dice-rolling shit that Morrowind had, but not dumbed down to hell like Skyrim which didn't even have classes or stats or primary skills.

Morrowind had better armor/weapon variety though.

You are saying that as if it matters. Yes, you'll alienate your fanbase, but the fanbase is minuscule compared to the potential customer base you can tap into by making watered down garbage.

you do, but why does it matter when your game is selling much more than it ever did..
take a loot at battlefield, i've been playing since 1942 and looking at the series right now.. its different, many of battlefield vets and core battlefield fans gave up on the series long time ago.. but the series is selling like hotcakes nowadays..
money is all that matters

playstationlifestyle.net/2017/01/24/analyst-estimates-pegs-battlefield-1-sales-15-million-titanfall-2-4-million/

Oblivions melee combat system in morrowind except the enemies actually get stunned or fall down due to each hit. Also the difference between light and heavy attacks is more set in stone and less based on stats. In other words light attacks are easily blocked and can cause the user to recoil but difficult to dodge due to free movement and coming out very quickly, heavy attacks break through blocks but come out slow enough that you can just stop blocking turn 360 degrees and walk away and generally limit the users movement to standing still or moving in one very predictable direction.

You never know man, Sup Forums is pretty young these days and Bethesda sure likes to pretend it started with Morrowind

Stop posting this it's perverse

Daggerfall was shit

But you gain a massive new fanbase in the process. Bethesda are masters at this. Morrowind alienated the Daggerfall fanbase, Oblivion alienated the Morrowind fanbase, Skyrim alienated the Oblivion fanbase, and so on. They care more about profits than their fans, because if you appeal to a wider market then your old fans don't matter compared to the amount of new fans you get. Then those new fans in return don't matter when Bethesda's next game comes out.

If they keep it up they'll run out of fans to disappoint

There has to be a tipping point though,
Eventually there must be a limit where you piss off the old fans but the game is so homogenized that it doesn't stand out enough to bring in a new audience either

They might have already hit that point with Fallout 4, their first game ever to get mixed reviews from the public.

You say all that about Morrowind like they're bad things.

So what do you think they'll remove in TES VI?

My money's on the stamina and magicka bars. Also armor will only consist of a single piece that covers the whole body and a head piece, like Fallout 3 and New Vegas.

It's been done before. Fallout started with 3. Star Wars started with 4.

>Skyrim alienated the Oblivion fanbase
It really didn't. It was mostly a direct upgrade sans magic. Even then magic was shit in Oblivion so who cared.

not everyone likes drinking shit mixed with bleach and call it a vitamin shake

RPG elements for the sake of RPG elements are stupid. Nobody needs a swimming skill, the purpose is too narrow and limited when other multipurpose skills can get you past any hurdle that swimming would and then some. Just file it under "agility" or "strength" or anything else that makes sense.

Yes, i played Deus Ex, why do you ask?

Oblivion still wound up being worse, though.

Isn't that kind of what happened with FO4? I didn't play it but it hasn't seemed to stay relevant nearly as long as 3 or NV.

my bet is on skill levels.
you'll only get perk points to spend on boring perks.

Yep, that's why Daggerfall is not as played as Morrowind.

the correct formula is to make something that appeals sufficiently to a niche, then make it more and more accessible with each release to appeal more and more to general audiences
the core group of people who loved it originally will prove it's a winning formula and more normies will eat it up with each release
this has been done countless times and it works every time
core fans are used as a stepping stone to a franchise that sucks billions from subhuman mouthbreathers. this will happen to everything you love over time.

>Also armor will only consist of a single piece that covers the whole body and a head piece, like Fallout 3 and New Vegas.

Does anyone even really mix and match armor sets? If I don't have every piece of it I won't wear it. The only problem it really presents is enchanting, but I guess you could just let people enchant a set any number of times based on their enchanting level.

Serious question, I got bored of Skyrim after two minutes without really giving it a fair chance, is it really babby mode or does it actually give you some challenging tasks/punish you for death?

Complex math based systems only serve to add tedium. No one except a small percentage of turbo autists find this fun or appealing. If I wanted to play a spreadsheet simulator I'd play a tabletop or do some accounting.

Good game design can offer both mechanical depth and accessibility, a smooth learning curve does wonders.

Battledfield 1 must be the best game ever than right pal?

That's probably a good replacement, better than having 100 skills, only 5 of them being worth your time.

>the core group of people who loved it originally will prove it's a winning formula and more normies will eat it up with each release
will prove it's a winning formula and build sufficient hype, rather

i did back in morrowind. when finding a single piece of deadric armor was a big deal. in oblivion and skyrim it's just a matter of minutes to get a full set when the level/skill is high enough.

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It was a direct upgrade in gameplay but the questlines were gutted and the stat progression was all but removed. Same as in Fallout 4, both Skyrim and FO4 are more fun to play than the previous games (imo) but the quests and RPG aspect of them suck ass. Oblivion had some really interesting quest lines, and cool quests like the DB whodunit quest or the paint world quest are gone in Skyrim.

kys

>Isn't that kind of what happened with FO4? I didn't play it but it hasn't seemed to stay relevant nearly as long as 3 or NV.
I begrudgingly bought it months later with a "fuck it, I'll just play it as if its an open ended FPS, I'll just pretend its not supposed to be an RPG"
It still wasn't fun to play and even as an Action FPS it fails to be enjoyable.
I think the only people that genuinely enjoyed it spent all of their time building towns and getting raped by dogs via mods or something, because I just couldn't find a way to actually enjoy it

TES has been always an entry level rpg to begin with

>weaponry is just "Melee" and "Ranged"
>armor is just "Armor" now
>armor sets are just single suit suits now
>magic is even further homogenized - expect at least one school to be removed
>each region of the province is now its own interior-acting-as-exterior cell, every town and city is too
>no skills, just perks
This is just the beginning.

The only thing Elder Scrolls needs to satiate their old niche fanbase is lore and then something to satiate the autism of mage players. The only people who still tolerate Morrowind and say its still any good are people clinging to these two features because playing a mage or thief in that game is a fucking chore.

Thieves just want a half descent stealth AI
Fighters just want to look cool and for combat to feel good
Mage players just want to make and use colorful spells and have some utility.

>флopy и фayнy

it doesnt even have grass what are you slav about?

Only good things about morrowind are the lore and yes

Definitely more accessible, which is what you were arguing in the first place you fucking mong.
Of course, I wouldn't expect a pleb to make sense.

>Star Wars started with 4.

This isn't even wrong, although it's mostly because Lucas has too many ideas.

>Does anyone even really mix and match armor sets?
Who gives a shit?
With low equipment slots you limit modding-possibilities. Which is really all bethesda has going for it currently, and even that they're busy squandering.

>only good thing about Morrowind is the lore
(You)

Anyone remember Fable?

The franchise basically killed itself trying to capture the casual meme.

Oblivion dropped the sandwich in the bog. It turned combat into a whifflebatting staggerfest where your skill and gear don't matter because you're fighting an angry mob consisting of the same screaming nigger woman with a two-handed construction tool and stats exactly the same as yours, and the system does not allow you to do anything clever. As shit as Morrowind combat was, there was still a massive difference in how you approach a fight if you have a spear or a shortsword, and if it's a mob or a single tough enemy. In Oblivion, everything you can ever do, in any situation and with any weapon, is run in, hit, then run out so the bot misses. And if you run into a spellcaster you're fucked. I'll take Morrowind's early game misery over than any day.

That is good because the stat progression system is broken to all hell and made the game borderline impossible later on.

But yeah quests have been getting sloppier over time. Bethesda keeps blowing their loads as soon as possible whenever it comes to progression.

But Fable never got any sequels
its just a fun little cult classic Xbox game that still has its dignity intact
;_;

you are shifting the point and missing the argument like the argumentless mudboi you are.
Daggerfall isntplayed for more reasons than muh accessability and even then gameplaywise its still more accessable then morrowind.

2/10 seconds to debunk your shit

I said the magic was good too, but yeah besides those two and probably city size and aesthetic, whats it got going for it?

Then what the fuck does Battlefield 1 have to do with this, you illiterate baiting third-worlder? You know what, fuck you, I'm done trying to decipher your incoherent Slavspeak.

Game y being played more than game x doesnt equal it to be more accessable dumb shit, nobody wanted you to reply your brainfarts int he first place. You can only blame yourself for not being able to read

Daggerfall
i want more daggerfall
give me daggerfall

>if a game is played more than the other, that doesn't mean it is easier to get into
Peak retardation.

100% RPG
No accessibility

because it won't run on PC, you need friends and dice for it

judging by your """""""logic""""""" starcraft was the most accessable game at the time it was released. Sup Forums never disappoints

>95% to hit missing
Come on everyone is frustrated by that. You wouldn't attack if you expect it to miss. I'm not saying they should make anything above 90% guarenteed hit but being frustrated by that doesn't make you a casual.

Morrowind was the best. Personally, though, I'd like to see how a balance between Morrowind and Daggerfall would play out - the mechanics of Daggerfall in the world of Morrowind.

Unreal Awakening not existing is one of my favorite memes.

But there's still a 5% chance of missing, it's not huge but exists

I gotta agree with #1. Another problem is a lot of rpg games have dump stats or builds either on purpose or because they're not implemented properly so there's a risk of a person making a shit character from the get go. It's why I always just lookup builds in rpgs from now on

Most accessible to the majority of gamers at that time, yes.
I still have no idea how you can be retarded enough to believe that Daggerfall's 3-story complex beginning dungeon, pixelated 2D characters, and multitude of skills is more accessible than Morrowind.

Depends.
Imagine you need to reach an island surrounded by a lake.

If swimming was the only option, then I'd agree, a swimming skill would be stupid because it would be mandatory.

But imagine there's
a) a ferry whose operator you could pay or persuade (uses speech craft skill) to get you onto the island
b) a hidden trapdoor that reveals a tunnel which leads under the sea and onto the island (uses lockpicking skill)
c) spells that let you walk on water (uses according school of magic skill)
d) other means to reach the island

Now add certain parts in the game that can only be reached by swimming that hide cool loot or an exclusive quest.

This way you allow your player to roleplay and punish/reward him for his character build by denying him some parts but granting him others. This adds depths, replay value and sometimes makes the player think he's smart for solving tasks his own way. Imagine him swimming across a river whose nearby bridge was full of enemies. He would feel sad for all the dumb fucks who didn't lvl swimming and take pride in his solution.
That's good game design in my opinion.

Games that roll hit and crit with the same dice are the worst.

>What are first person shooters or cs 1.6

Look, I see you really try to have a red thread but this just aint working out because underage and b8 just dont have the experience. You betetr stop posting now b4 Sup Forums downgrades your profile into view only mode for being pretty fucking dumb. Starcraft then as it is now is one of the most complicated fuicking games there are and now look at that shit. Its a niche genre now because its inaccessable how retarded are you?
You want reasons? read my first fucking post you pissmong

>for the demographic at the time
Read my post again, you illiterate Slav. People were just less appealed to by CS because, get this, they weren't interested in ACCESSING it. Also, are you trying to imply that Steam at that time was anything close to accessible? There's a reason that that gif of the Steam logo fucking a guy in the ass exists.
Also, I see you've just completely dropped the topic of Daggerfall "Privateer's Hold is the beginning dungeon" being somehow more accessible than Morrowind, because you've realized how fucking shit that bait was.

This African American gets it

Yeah, and it's frustrating.

You need GMDX. Makes Swimming good by changing it to Athletics and makes Environmental Training by making it apply to ballistic armor and basically be an essential part of a combat playthrough.
That's actually a scenario introduced in the Deus Ex tutorial. You're thrown into a room separated by a river, where you and an unaware hostile robot are on one half of the river and the exit is on the other. You can either try to search for the code to lower the bridge to get to the other side and then try to blow up the robot with the TNT crates and pistols strewn about, sneak by the robot and then enter the code while it isn't looking, OR just swim to the other side.

Fallout 4 had mix and match armour though

No

Privateer's Hold is tiny. Turn on mouselook and it feels like medium sized Morrowind dungeon.

Yes, and they still somehow managed to fuck it up.

I'd feel sad for the dumb fuck who misses out on all the exp of the enemies on the bridge.

aside being a fucking outdated pile of shit, how is oblivion less accessible than skyrim ?

There's exp systems that reward playstyles outside of combat
look at underrail's oddity system

Fuck accessibility in the ass. Morrowind was the perfect balance.

What counts as "the public"? It has an 88 on metacritic

If an RPG is too complex for you, then maybe you should stick to a different genre.

that requires a lot of work and foresight from the developer and not something i would consider "rpg elements for the sake of rpg elements" which is usually more something like "does our gameworld have water in it? yes? then add a swimming skill to pad the skill list"