Summoning in Dark Souls

Does summoning ruin the Dark Souls experience? Does it add to the experience?

I love being summoned and helping others defeat bosses, or fuck up invaders if the host needs help. Jolly Cooperation is the best.

You should beat every boss alone at least once, just to get the complete experience, be it bad or good you can only fight a boss for the first time once.

My friends and I tend to let 1v1s happen if an invader shows up. But if they hit someone who is clearly staying back, RIP.

gives options to make it easier for some
gives a second type of online play for others that don't enjoy pvp
its a win win

I like doing things on my own first, then helping a friend out with a different character.

Summoning is a crapshoot because you can either have a fun co-operative experience in which both players are motivated by a desire to push through a difficult challenge, or a totally fucked experience where you summon some twink who just one-hits the boss, let alone three of them.
I'd argue that one of those is a meaningful experience which adds to the game. You don't win anything for guessing which.

I attempt every boss alone multiple times and can't think of too many bosses in the series I have trouble with, but if there are any then it's summoning for subsequent playthroughs.

It's definitely easy mode for most bosses but I don't have the patience of DSP to attempt bosses literally 60 times alone.

Jolly Co Op is the best, but if you just put your sign outside the door and not by the bonfire to help lost lambs through the level you're a greedy gus and can fuck off.

Like that? Yes definitely, it's basically cheating and I'm not sure what the point of playing the game would be if you do this shit.

Summoning someone to help at a particular hard part is fine.

...

>not getting to ng+7, summoning shitters, and watching them die

>First playthrough
>Lay down summon sign in front of vordt
>Get summoned
>Two other summons
>Host goes up to Dancer
>We all die in seconds
Was pretty funny 2bh pham

It goes both ways with summoning to help a bit with shitty parts in DaS3 to being outright broken. Anything pass one player phantom ruins the experience bar outside cheesing cheesy DaS3 parts in NG+ and above with a relatively low SL character.

Then the only supposed mechanical balance to summoned phantom were invaders, but that was shafted hard as fuck.

I hear what you're saying, but generally getting through a stage isn't that bad (minus maybe one or two asshole sections or if its something annoying like a poison swamp) and its bosses that people really need help with.

That being said, I have tried putting my signs down at bonfires. I've only been summoned to deal with invaders, not to help someone through a level.

>tfw stay low level for a while and help guys beat Dancer at low SL
The sheer gratitude and happiness conveyed in the end of fight gestures makes it all worth it.

good way to farm souls

when i finished ds3 i spent a while helping people with bosses, was fun.

Does anyone else get problems where the host goes through a fog door but the summons are stuck outside? I've been stuck outside with other phantoms a couple of times, it's pretty annoying.

That being said, sometimes its SUPER helpful. I've been able to help out people with the Abyss Watchers fight because I can aggro him with the Moaning Shield but he can't hit me through the fog. It just lets the host get some easy hits in, plus I can clip weapons through the fog and help out some more.

Easy, risk free souls.

No, but I will say that allowing you to summon more than one phantom is definitely a terrible design choice. Considering there isn't a single situation that can't be handled alone there is definitely no situation that can't be handled with 2 people. As evidenced by OP webm having more than 2 is just pointless.

>endboss of Dark Souls 3 DLC
>get summoned
>see that he summoned 4 fucking people
>go in
>he rushes for the boss and dies in 10 sec
>everyone gets sent back

10/10 community

Summoning adds to the experience. Being a healslut is some of the most fun I've had in DaS3 now that they've given Faith so many tools

>get summoned
>just you and host
>enter boss room
>you beef it HARD and die
>can feel the disappointment through TCP/IP

Any boss not beaten solo doesn't count.

the two person bosses (gargoyles, O&S, etc) are much more fun with multiples. Other bosses like Gwyn are ruined with more than one player engaging.

>people who grab three summons in front of the Spear of the Church boss and then walk over to Midir

I want to make a healer for my next playthrough.
How should I build? lots of faith?

Not until the password system was implemented. Dark Souls was never intended to be something you play socially with someone you know on a microphone, interviews make that clear. They gave in to casuals on that one. At least fixed connections came along with it, but "le jolly coop imma sunbro XD" ruined the culture of the community and took away from the game in the end.

My main concern about have more than 2 people is the damage drop off, especially since the more people you have the sooner they die for some goddamn reason.

I know that fucking feel man

OH SHIT

Don't bully Sister Freide!

Well remember, you have infinite respecs with Rosaria via the glitch, so you can always go through the early game vit-gouged out to grab your miracles. But if you want to be a support caster you're going to want Faith and Attunement.

I wish DS had a real co-op mode where you could just play the entire game with friends without having to summon. Having to do every area 3 or 4 times is retarded game design. It can't possibly be that hard to make multiplayer less tedious

its fun

unless everyone in the game is either using a gimped build or a calamity ring I dont see the point

however playing through with a friend to pass time is alright

Shit-Ass Dead Dude... Know'st thou of Hell Fuck Castle, high in the mountains...? (laughter) It was once the domain of King Big Sad Guy, who did the Flame Thing.. Legend tells of the castle's steward, the great and terrible HorseDog, but who is to say if it still roams the halls... (solid minute of laughter) Oh, how silly of me; but of course, a new arrival in Drangranthric wouldst know not such tales... One such as thee... wouldst be better suited to sharpen the blades of the dreaded wraith of Why'd They Put Anorher FUCKIN SWAMP LEVEL Marsh..... Armor Type of Dude. That is... ifst thoust canst livest thatst longst... (five minutes of laughter; unskippable)

Summoning definitely adds to the experience. It just also needs a drawback, remove some of the host's estus or something. (cap it at 3?)

Ganking is a huge problem too. They should have made it so pantoms couldn't use estus after an invader comes in das3 too.
The 3rd and 4th summon should also only be allowed if there are two or more invaders.

How summoning is now is open to abuse, but I'd rather have it how it is now than not have it at all.

>like getting summoned to run through levels with people
>hate warping from bonfire to bonfire waiting for a host

I wish there was just a room in firelink where you could drop your summon sign and it would appear throughout the world. Kind of like those Dark Souls 2 DLC area spots.

This is actually one of the reasons why I like being summoned, but try to avoid summoning. 90% of the time all that ends up happening is some retard phantom dies five seconds into the fight and I have to deal with a health buffed boss by myself.

Please raise that vigor. Gives me conniptions.

Maybe it's because the original premise was NOT to have someone holding your hand and sucking your dick the whole way through the world.

Summoning that many people for bosses is retarded, but for running through a level it can be fun, especially since you are almost guaranteed to get multiple invaders.

I would say ruins it, and should be completely avoided in the first run, unless its for a big npc questline. Bosses and enemies are completely shit when it comes to handling more than one target.

My two friends wanted to do a co-op playthrough with me for my first time going through Dark Souls 3, and honestly its really quite lame.

This may just be because they are using NG+ characters and directly communicating with me, however even using a regular summon squanders the game somewhat. Having a phantom run around and kill most of the enemies for you, show you were loot is hidden and methods to get to it (ledge jumps and stuff) and drawing agrro away from bosses so it feels more like you dipping in to kick it while its distracted rather than actually fighting it and having to learn how to fight it just soils the whole thing.

Helping people out who need it is fun, and just paling around with other players is part of the charm considering the dark atmosphere. Just don't do what I'm having to put up with and completely co-op the game. Taking some alone time and exploring on your own is how the game should be played.

Yo guys, are pure faith builds viable? Like SL120 and 60 Faith

If so, what weapon(s) should I get? And what miracles?

Ive already played with a Quality build and a pyromancer (40int40fth) so I want to try something different

Give yourself a little bit of strength, I'd say. You need to be able to hit things after all. I'd say the ideal thing might be to do a reverse Morne's Hammer, that is 50 faith and 30 strength. Strong enough to equip some good pure strength weapons just to smack things up but your real focus is clearly on faith. The priest chime you get at the start of the game is actually pretty good once you start upgrading it, it'll carry you for the entire game if you want.

Don't forget, you can hold down the button you used to cast miracles to delay actually using it. Hopefully your team mates will get the idea when they see you glowing and shit, and run towards you for some healing.

In a combat situation the saint bellvine is a great chime. It has a poor spell buff but it does miracles FAST, fast enough you could probably get away with doing heals in the heat of battle. Using the sage's ring on top of that makes casting near instant, its also really good for things like Lightning Spear so you can pepper enemies with them constantly. Morne's Ring can also help make up for the bell vine's poor spell buff.

Healing is cool and I'm glad they added Lothric War Banner and Projected Heal, but still feels a bit boring. At least they made LWB a constant AoE effect and not something that people need to be around you for at the time of casting.

Still, I like the idea. Waiting for an MMO lite souls.

if you summon for boss during the first run, it ruins it completely

>Maybe it's because the original premise was NOT to have someone holding your hand and sucking your dick the whole way through the world.
Because making it easy to have random people hold your hand and suck your dick the whole way is better than making it easy to actually play the game with your actual friends and have a fun experience together?
It's literally the only good game where you can go on a real adventure with your friends. They can at least try to make it less shitty.

Oh? I've never heard about this. I'm super interested about this, how does it work. I'd love to try out silly gimmick builds every once in a while

If by "pure faith" you mean solely miracles then yes but like magic it is underwhelming until very late game and the majority of your "caster" playthrough will be spent using a melee weapon.

Still there are a lot of weapons you can use, it depends how "faith" based you want them. The most boring option is to pick whatever weapon you want and just use lightning blade on it.

Isn't the damage drop off the draw back? Plus being able to summon invites you to being invaded, which is another draw back. That being said, most people summon immediately before a boss room anyway so invasions aren't that big of a deal.

I do feel like the cards are stacked against invaders just a little. I seriously can't imagine ever getting enough rewards for invasion based covenants. The only ones that seem to succeed are the scumbag ones, and I don't want to be That Guy

It's a crutch if you need it.
It ruins the game when the devs start to develop the game to acomodate it.

>DS2 pvp
>equip moon butterfly set
>equip poison dagger
>equip Avelyn
>weight under 25
>have 99 poison throwing knives in item slot

I got death threats every day.

I wouldn't say it ruins or adds to the experience, but makes it a different experience.

I was thinking about infusing something with lightning so it gets faith scaling.

How much of a bad idea is that?

Generally a bad idea because of le split damage. It's probably universally better to keep the weapon as is / infuse raw and cast lightning blade, or use a weapon that scales with faith.

What about a Raw Dragonslayer axe? Would do well?

w-what glitch?

Literally anything works, that's why caster playthroughs are boring until late game. They are just gimped str / dex / quality builds for the majority of the game.

>My friends and I tend to let 1v1s happen if an invader shows up. But if my buddy is about to die, we step in and kill the fag trying to ruin are fun.

fix that for you pal

When you respec, don't quit out of Rosaria's menu. Instead just Alt-F4 and you'll keep the tongue and number of available respecs.

Split damage isn't really bad if its physical and one element.

t. caster main

Overall, yes. DS doesn't stand up well to a party of 2 or more players, let alone if they're competent. Regular mobs simply melt, since most lack wide attacks, AOE, or good enough AI to handle 2 people. If 1 of you knows where everything is, exploration is out the door. Hell, plenty of bosses can't even handle 2 people since again, 2 people with good builds will melt them, even with hp scaling.

Invasions were supposed to help balance this, but lets face it, its a shitty system that sends 1 guy to handle 2 instead of simply say, waiting to send 2 invaders to make it a more balanced 2v2. Besides most invaders not being good enough to fight 2 people at once, invaders already are shafted with less healing items, and hosts often just sit at bonfires, so mobs wont help you either.

Doesn't help either that gank teams filling up the pvp limit on one side and skewing invaders towards them essentially puts blueberries out of business.

It might work at say NG++ with hp bloating making even a pair of competent players actually need to try, but otherwise it doesn't work.

Not him, but its usually pretty shit. Split damage is generally terrible unless the enemy is weak against one or both types. I'd honestly suggest having a lot of strength (like, 30 or more) and making them heavy weapons. If you REALLY want a weapon with lightning then I'd recommend something like the Dragon Slayer Great Axe. It already comes with a bit of lightning damage, but its weapon art does a LOT at lightning damage at once which scales decently with faith

I think summoning works fine when each person plays a specific role like a mage or a healer, because that shit is fun, because it feels like a party.
But when it's 4 r1 spammers on an invader or a boss then it loses its charm

It isn't, but is there a single instance where going for a lightning infusion would produce better results than a 'normal' infusion + faith buff?

Depends really. Some stuff is made super easy, other fights are made harder.

Take bloodborne foir example. Some bosses, like amygdala, are much harder with more people because he is considerably more erratic.

Ah my eternal conundrum in the souls games.

I don't like any of the boss fights, because they don't have the thing that makes the souls games good (exploration) and they're all "dodge roll the attack, attack boss, repeat" affairs. Like a really shitty version of DMC or Bayonetta, and I don't play either of those games because I'd STILL find that boring even with combat that wasn't as shallow as fuck.

So I should summon help so I can get past the bosses as fast as possible, right? Except that would make me a filthy casual. Souls games aren't even hard, there's no way I can take the easy route.

Nah its not that hard to resummon.
I dont even have a weapon equipped most of the time anyway

I play solo, but have no qualms with being in way of the blue since typically the invader will just almost lose against me a couple times then run and hide in mobs. Though it annoys me when they start killing the mobs with me.

Off the top of my head, maybe if it was already a lightning weapon to begin with?

Summoning is just Dark Souls' version of easy mode.

Oh wow, if that works that's pretty cool. Hope it hasn't been patched out or anything. I'd love to try a magic based build one day, especially since magic is only useful at the end of the game.

The "easy" mode of summons could be a bit remedied if they disabled placing summon signs everywhere except at bonfires.

This wouldn't fix every location, but for most, it would force the host to summon earlier in the level and then run through the level with their phantoms, increasing the time that an invasion is likely to occur.

Sorcerer's get a few nice melee weapons early on (Hysel Pick, Crystal Sage's Rapier, Scholar's Candlestick), Clerics just get the Astora SS and Saint Bident, pyros unfortunately get nothing until smouldering lake

Summoning is fine when the host participates in the action. If the summoner just stays in the back of the boss room away from danger then that's where it can be problematic.

I did it literally earlier today.

>pyros unfortunately get nothing until smouldering lake

They can also rush the Painted World for the Onyx Blade.

Yeah but early game pyromancy is way more viable than early game sorcery and miracles.

It would be interesting if they had bosses that became a lot harder when you summoned more people because of a unique mechanic or attack or environmental hazard or something that only activated when you had summons.

The only reason it might be "harder" when summoning now is because you get 1 shot instead of 2 shot by the boss.

honestly endgame pyromancy is more viable than spells or miracles. Dark pyromancy melts almost every boss excluding skeletonman and crystal sages.

How is Onyx blade by the way? The only playthrough I haven't done yet is a pure pyromancer, is it worth a go?

I know Witch's Locks is pretty much the thing. What other suggestions? Obviously low req's is a must, I'm talking pretty pure pyro cast build with one weapon of choice.

What if you could still be invaded while in a boss room? Would that save summoning or fucking ruin the entire game?

Honestly the executioners greatsword is better due to raw damage and recharging fp after every kill. Plus it is located in the same location as the DLC entrance. Also the onyx blade takes twinklies to upgrade, meaning that you won't be making it stronger for a while

Onyx Blade is great, Locks are fucking terrible. Can't think of a worse PvE weapon than whips.

Great Soul Dregs is the new pve king.

Sounds terrible. Maybe if it only occurred when you had 3 summons and a host so someone had to keep an eye out or something.

only if it's in the mechanics

Looking Mirror Knight, Old Monk, Spear of the Church do it ok.

>tfw you played The Ring City DLC at release
>tfw you beat Spear of the Church with 3 phantoms helping
>tfw you can avoid playing TRC in 1 year where no one will be around to summon and you have to face the NPC + human Spear of the Church invader cancer who has a 1 shot meta pvp build

Did the phantoms help you or beat it for you?

I put the ass in glass cannon but believe it or not, 13 Vigor isn't the end of the world for what I've been doing (coop, Darkmooning and Spearing it up).

If you're on PS4 you can just close the game out and reload, but otherwise its exactly as the other poster described, its a pretty wonderful glitch.

Early game miracles are "viable", just more for utility instead of combat. Depending on your attunement and flask upgrades you can practically turn one estus heal into several spell heals, and replenishment is nice for poison/bleed. The first time I tried a faith build and threw my first lightning spear I was beyond disappointed, though.

>Lockes are fucking terrible
The Witch's Lockes? That WA is godly, what are you talking about? Extremely good at 40/40.

It's just disappointing like you said. "I can't wait to start this new caster character" *forced to melee for 2/3 of the game*

In PvP or PvE? I think whips are the worst PvE weapon class in the game. For PvP they are good though.

This is the cancer you will have to face when you fight Spear of the Church more than 3 months after TRC launched.

Enjoy the "ganking" while it lasts since you will miss it.

It's the same reason one ninja is unstoppable, but a horde of ninjas is a flock of lambs ready for slaughter.

They're good in PvE if the thing you're fighting isn't resistant to fire or something you really need to backstab or riposte. You can stunlock like mad with them and the FP requirement is pretty minimal. They're certainly not top tier or anything, but they deserve to be elevated from the other whips due to how damaging they can be.

>Also the onyx blade takes twinklies to upgrade, meaning that you won't be making it stronger for a while

By the time you get to the Painted World, you can easily have quite a few Twinklies.

>Three around the shrine (from the crows, and by dropping down and killing the lizard behind it).
>Two on the path to the Cathedral, which you need to go down to get to the Painted World anyway.
>Two from lizards at the bottom around the Cathedral.
>One outside the Old Wolf of Farron bonfire.
>One from the lizard on the roots beneath the chapel in the Painted World.
>Another 10 from a lizard in the Corvian Settlement on the way to the Onyx Blade.

That's all before even beating the Abyss Watchers, and more than enough to upgrade to +3 (the equivalent of a +6 weapon).

>This is the cancer you will have to face when you fight Spear of the Church more than 3 months after TRC launched.
A person with 13 Vigor?

Also you know you can summon for the boss, right? You have so many more options than the Spear player.

I adore lightning arrow, but I wish it was a bit stronger.

Its pretty god tier for the FP cost.

>You can stunlock like mad with them
Maybe I jut didn't use it enough, WA especially, but the whole thing seemed disappointing. Slow and not enough damage and didn't seem to stun that well.

Maybe I was just spoiled by how godlike the Dark Hand was.

>Also you know you can summon for the boss, right?

The post was about having to fight these PvP centric builds once the ease of summoning dies down.