Last hitting is a fucking stupid mechanic. It just adds 20 minutes of tedious grinding where nothing happens to the start of the game, makes teammates bitch at each other and fight over XP when they should be cooperating, and isn't even fun or entertaining.
Defend this shit, dota and lol fags. You can't.
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I get that it's to make it so you aren't sitting around auto-attacking while you level up, but the mechanic is so brainless that you're only one step separated from that.
the board was literally created for your ilk.
It adds a dynamic element in the lanes beyond "hit the other guy." You have to not only last hit his army, you also have to maximize your advantage by last hitting your own, denying XP, and potentially bullying him out of XP range completely (watching out for creep aggro of course). You can't kill shit willy nilly because that leaves you vulnerable to ganks and makes it harder to bully your opponent under his tower. You also can't be too passive because getting the wave closer to your tower invites a surprise push and removing a safe zone from the map.
every aspect of MOBAs is trash, not just last hitting
>20 minutes of tedious grinding where nothing happens to the start of the game
wrong
>try to support my carry in lane
>"fucking retard give me solo exp"
>go to pull
>carry dies
>its my fault
what a great game
>20 minutes
>nothing happens
besides competing for said farm, harassing, ganking
Then after 10 minutes the laning phase is usually done and people move around the map, farming, ganking pushing.
If you aren't getting money the whole time through a camp or creeps you're doing something wrong. It's second nature if you're any good at all and is the difference between a great carry player and a good one.
Fighting creeps just sucks. It's not an entirely bad mechanic: it's interesting that killing the enemy creeps off faster pushes their tower harder, and the fights between players end up with more varied positioning from trying to last-hit and stuff, but it's still a stupid mini-game where someone fights you over top of it. Jungling seems hyper-boring too, but at least you get to strategically ambush people. It still feels like a dumb mod for WC3 after all this time long.
>it's not 20 minutes where nothing happens!
>it's just 10 minutes where nothing happens!
this is still not acceptable
It makes the game easier to learn because it's a mechanic that was preserved from WC3 so anyone who wants to play DotA:All Stars already knows how to do it if he played WC3.
except it isn't you fucking retard.
why do people who don't know how to play this game feel the need to voice their opinion on it?
I agree with this, ever since they introduced rubberbanding what this dude said has been completely marginalized to the point that it doesn't even matter. The only reason its still around is because everyone would just be sanding around otherwise, both you and the enmity have to go where the creeps are.
>keeping a mechanic that was there because of engine limitations in new entries
this is why I don't take ASSFAGGOTS seriously
>jungling
>jungle content is completely irrelevant and separate from the actual main objective of the game except for giving money and XP, has absolutely no interaction with the towers, minions, or ancients
stupid as hell
I thought you can't deny in LoL so the mechanic of last hits must be very boring and easy unlike in Dota.
t. 1k
>what is chen, ench, doom etc..
there are many ways of how you can use jungle for the game, not just to get exp and gold
They got rid of lasthitting in Heroes of the Storm and just gave heroes an exp radius where if anything died within a certain distance of them they got the XP for it. Makes a lot more sense and doesn't punish people for playing support
The rubber banding keeps games from being totally one sided if you can outplay your opponent. Even then the bounty gold has to go to someone who can use it well.
Yep, play heroes of the storm.
No last hitting - its the moba that lets you have fun the whole game. Not just the last 10 minutes.
>nothing happens
nigga, if you aren't bullying enemies out of their lanes, ganking retarded legion commanders in the jungle, and TPing to whatever lane is getting gone on, then you are doing something horribly wrong.
even if you're a playing a super greedy carry and don't want to get involved early on, you should at the very least be pushing the enemies towers when your teammates are causing a ruckus on the other side of the map.
>minions
lol
engine limitations were the reason for an economy system that they purposefully implemented?
is engine limitations now just buzzwords?
Yeah except now there's no way to counter an enemy with items, you have to have picked the right heroes at the draft to win at high play.
Everything is a deathball fight, one team always gets 10 before the other team and has a huge advantage.
That's the official name in League of Legends
if you want to be autistic about it you can pretend i said creeps
How do dota or lol players handle seeing the same little map over and over again? I wonder if it even matters at all to you.
>trade a skill cap and a challenge for mindless, easy, samey fun where you still only have fun for the last 10 minutes but lose at draft and have to rely even more on your retarded team
yes thats the point
so?
>implying DotA2 and LoL don't have snowballing
>implying gold advantage isn't just as powerful as EXP advantage in HotS
rubberbanding didn't solve the problem. If you have gold advantage at 10 minutes you've basically already won. The rest of the game at that point is little more than a formality
>makes teammates bitch at each other and fight over XP
imagine a game where a team actually woks together on prioritizing
the game is interesting enough so as not to need a bunch of shitty maps with annoying objectives
>Not playing a dedicated roamer
1k MMR detected.
DotA elitist spoted
oh plase, there is no more skill in one moba than another, theyre all basic babbys first RTS regarding mechanical skill.
Learning the games items and mechanics can take a bit of time, but that comes whilst playing.
Hots games are fun from the beginning to the end, and i say that as an ex dota2 player, with some time in lol.
It is an essential element of resource management and economy.
>heroes that can take control of jungle creeps
>hero that can take spells from jungle creeps
>stacking jungle creep camps for the carry to farm
>pulling the lane creeps into jungle camps to control the lane position, deny gold/XP to the enemy, and get some gold/XP for the support
the fact alone that you say the jungle has no interaction with towers or "minions" just shows that you don't know what you're talking about. maybe the jungle is useless in LoL beyond getting the red/blue buffs, but in Dota the jungle is extremely important and can have a lot of impact on the game, depending on what heroes are in play and what's happening in the game.
Sorry friend, that's only LoL
I've won more one sided comebacks in DotA than I can count simply because some heroes are better later than others or we've helped off pushes/ganks and won team fights to get back in the lead.
Occasionally there's a game where someone feeds Slark or something and no one else seems to be able to do anything about it. That more or less comes down to team morale, team comp and my own willingness/ability to do something about it.
Don't come talking about shit you don't know about, just go play your babbies first team fight simulator with all your favorite Disney princes and princesses.
Completely different argument/conversation. You're completely wrong but its still irrelevant.
Its like if i said the sun was shining in my eyes and cant see the ball so you counter that by saying "yeah well the grass needs the sun to grow"
>purposefully implemented
>buzzwords
As far as I know, WC3 engine only took into account whoever hit last when it came to rewards, instead of everyone who took part in the fight in any way as it should have been, and there was no way around it.
An "economy" and strategies were formed around this "limitation" by players themselves after extensive playing.
New, more modern versions (LoL, HoN, etc) grabbed this now expected mechanic and implemented it in their own ruleset just because familiarity, and not necessity.
Correct any of this if it's wrong, or not entirely right.
>muh rts
You fags really hit rock bottom - defending hots now? Sorry bud but even if you suck blizz's cock till it falls off they can never make sc popular again.
It literally doesn't matter and it's one of the stupidest complaints people can have about the genre.
none of that matters due to rubber banding though, you have to completely shut out the enemy team in order for it to matter, the real game starts at 20 min
> there was no way around it
wrong, it would have been super easy to make it so you get gold just for being around the dead minion, or for tapping it at least. In fact, in WC3 it would have been harder to make it so the + gold notification showed up over non-neutral creeps, which is what they did.
If you need new shit in a game to keep it interesting then it's a shit game
DotA has much more intricate interactions going on than LoL and much more to remember.
Knowing what to buy and why is more important than memorizing a buy order/talent order will ever be. Heroes has optimal ways to build heroes and by the time I feel strong the game is ending. It's fun but gets old rapidly. Especially because of the map system.
It's always funny seeing self proclaimed RTSfags shit on other games not being "as mechanically challenging".
Every washed up RTS player got stomped when they tried to play dota for easy money and were the worst player by far on their team.
I suppose I can understand you being bitter, how a bunch of autists that only cared about APM managed to ruin a whole genre is truly sad.
>Games shouldn't solely be determined on skill
If one team beats the piss out of the other team just let them win, I hate this stupid shit where my team kills the other team 15 times, takes all the tier 2 towers, and then can't end the game because of the fucking uphill shrines, uphill miss chance, and uphill vision making it impossible to take the tier 3s unless we starve out the enemy for 20 minutes because a single death to the enemy's position 1 ruins all the work we did to get to that point.
Thats completely wrong, it doesn't matter how hard you outplay some one and get an advantage due to rubber banding. The problem is the exact opposite of what you are suggesting. And people like this who think shooting a goal and tieing up a game even though your opponent shot like 3 on you is good gameplay and brags about it on Sup Forums.
Dude.. That's exactly what he fucking said. Are you stupid? It's to add another element to the game holy fuck.
Would DotA2 be a better game if everybody just started the game at level 10 with the appropriate amount of gold?
Just skip the first bit of fucking nothing
exactly, why do we even need balance patches, just have the same meta with the same comps for 10 years
dude I played other maps in the same 'genre' that had different economy systems entirely, one was that if you were nearby you got gold, everyone who was nearby
economy is a very important part of these games, even experience is a resource in heroes of the storm, you're just competing for it differently
>instead of everyone who took part in the fight in any way as it should have been
lol
Heroes is very different. It's the easy mode of mobas. Just spam attacks there's no real combos or anything. It's retarded. Plus Champs are either op or just useless.
>>Games shouldn't solely be determined on skill
I hate this thinking so much. If an idiot wants his win welfare he should go to a casino.
rts was mentioned as a comparison of mechanical input skill only.
The games themselves are in no way related.
Learn to read what was actually written instead of jumping to some sort of buzzword or meme you can bandwagon on.
>gold
What about exp?
This came out first result:
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>muh memeback
if you have such a big advantage and still manage to lose fights then you either had an early-game-oriented draft and failed to win before your timing window passed, or you got cocky and threw the game like a retard.
the effects of rubber banding are extremely over-exaggerated. maybe when icefrog first reworked the comeback gold numbers in whatever patch that was, you may have had a point, but comeback gold has been nerfed several times since then and is not at all an issue.
This. If anything the team that's ahead should be getting more advantages, not disadvantages.
rubber banding only punishes retarded fucksticks that thinking diving T4s while T2s are still alive is a good idea. The damn gold mechanic has been nerfed so many times it's probably at the same rate it was before.
People are just having PTSD when one wipe gave the enemy 20k gold in 30 seconds that lasted for 2 days.
>Heroes has optimal ways to build heroes and by the time I feel strong the game is ending. It's fun but gets old rapidly.
I agree with you here, its not often i get games longer than 15-20 minutes anymroe. In the past i remember some games going to 30 or so mins if both teams are equally decent defending at the end. It is a shame you aren't able to play fully leveled up for longer.
Ill agree that it needs to be adjusted, but I think being able to come back at all is important.
Balance patches are meant to balance the game.
New maps or other shit are just shiny things for kids and people with ADD.
because dota and lol are based on player-controlled variables
Youre dumb as fuck lmao
No because people don't want the game to end after 20 min, team reddit decided this after newbie beat EG like 3 years ago by 5 maning down mid and ending the game in 20 min every game throughout the tournament. So they have been "artificially" prolonging games with every patch.
no
take your 2k opinion elsewhere, such as back to hots
then don't get cocky. It's like when a racer thinks he's passed the finish line but in reality there's still a good way to go before winning.
This. If you take out last hitting, just take out creeps and add some control point bullshit for gold and XP.
>how fast you can click is the only form of skill that matters
Also shows how much you know when you're jerking off over RTS' mechanical skill instead of the macro knowledge and fast decision making required
>if you have such a big advantage and still manage to lose fights...
Not my argument at all, please don't try to use me as a soap box to bitch about something no one said.
...
>how do baseball players handle playing in the same place all the time
>how do football players handle playing on the same field all the time
>how to tennis players stand playing in that court all the time
This is why I like how Heroes of the Storm does it. Everyone on your team is at the same level and don't have to farm minions for gold and exp and can focus on objectives instead.
Sure, HotS has its flaws, but offers a less "within team" competitiveness.
I agree, if you got fucked in the early game because you can't look at the minimap or call missing your team deserves to lose.
Rubberbanding exists to make the games more "epic" to watch on twitch because chinks turned games into 70 minute grind fests back in the day
then the game becomes "who kills the best early game and can stay on points or keeps people off the best"
this would be terrible. there would be no reason to draft or play for anything but the early game, then. any late-game hero would be completely obsoleted, since you'd never be able to survive long enough to get to the late game. plus every single game would just turn into massive snowballing stomps, there would never be anything fun or interesting as soon as one team gained any sort of an upper hand. Dota and other ASSFAGGOTS already have enough snowballing built in by how much faster you can accrue items and levels when you control the map, there's no sense in exaggerating it even more.
This
everyone being the same level bothers me and everyone should level slower, fixed your shit game
it wouldn't be as simple as gold, but it still wouldn't be that hard. certainly not harder than making some of the custom spells like omnislash. even the GUI options in the trigger editor have settings for adding, removing, and disabling exp gain.
Mining for minerals is a stupid fucking mechanics etc. etc. Resources are always a part of RTS games, fuck off.
how do fighting game players handle seeing the same map over again?
how do chess players handle playing on the same board every time?
Fast games are preferable imo. Are you saying you prefer games that last an hour each?
>dota without creeps
That... actually doesn't sound too bad. You still have the towers, but your team needs to coordinate more to take them down. The only problem would be how you get XP in the early game.
Has any game ever tried this before? a DotA clone without creeps?
DotA should add an invisible barrier in the middle lane to prevent any sort of roaming. I miss the days when midlane was pure 1v1 goodness. Fuck this roaming support gay shit.
You mean just a fucking arena? Go play bloodline champions.
you claimed that the laning phase does not matter because of rubber banding. that is exactly what your argument was.
but fine, let me explain it another way, then. the laning phase is extremely important and doing well in the laning phase gives you a huge leg up for winning teamfights and taking objectives in the mid game. if you sack your laning phase you are almost always going to get BTFO once the other team decides to start taking control of the map. the notion that the laning phase doesn't matter because "muh rubberbanding" is completely wrong.
>Watch soccer (futbol)
>They kick the ball back forth for hours
>Game ends 0-0
>This is somehow more entertaining than ASSFAGGOTS
>maybe when icefrog first reworked comeback gold numbers
See, this is how they tricked the community into accepting the ridiculous premise of comeback mechanics. They made them massively overtuned on purpose, then reduced them to show they were "listening to the community". Then even though the new system was worse than pre-comeback, nobody cared because "at least it's not as bad as the initial implementation."
How do chess players handle using the same game board every time?
why do people call mobas assfaggots?
>I took what you said and drove it to 10! xD
What an argument mark
No I prefer a game to not be the blink of an eye. Fucking millennials and short attention span cunts.
Aeon of Strife Styled Fortress Assault Game Going On Two Sides
Are you me?
DotA clones aren't RTS games, though. They're their own thing. RTS games are "about" micromanagement of units and resource control. Resources are important because that's a major part of the game.
On the other hand, in a DotA clone the focus is the heroes fighting each other. Ganks, team fights, pokes, coordinated pushes. Resource collecting is just something you do between fights because otherwise you would just be standing around doing nothing. Literally just space filling fluff. I mean, maybe there are some people that play DotA2 for the thrilling experience of lasthitting the same fucking mooks over and over again for half an hour but I really hope people aren't that pathetic
thanks
...
Not sure what you were expecting playing ASSFAGGOTS
Are you both bad?
>>what is doom
A hungry, hungry demon of slightly inconveniencing supports.
You forgot about Helm of the Dominator.