How the fuck does MGSV look better than FFXV, model and detail wise, running on a fraction of the polygon count?

How the fuck does MGSV look better than FFXV, model and detail wise, running on a fraction of the polygon count?

What is the black magic that is FOX Engine?

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it looks more realistic sure but it doesn't look better. what you see on the bottom is what 99% of the game looks like. ffxv had multiple cities, dungeons, terrains with different looks and vibes to them.

We'll never know.
MGSV and soccer games will be the only ones that use it.

Except that there is an equally large jungle map in mgsv byt i get what youre saying

Strong art direction will always triumph over excessive unnecessary detail that a small fraction of people will every notice.
I also think it helps that MGSV focused on making what needed to look good, look good, while FFXV tried to make everything look good with a shitton of postprocessing effects.
Also TAA blurs the shit out of games and I fucking hate games that use it and I wish that there is always an option and that's why MGSV looks instantly better.

Because excessive polygons are a meme. Effective use of them shaves off hundreds or thousands of them in a scene, and the scene itself will look no different, yet run much smoother.

Metal Gear Survive

Secret Nippon technology, sadly they don't always go all out.

Different engines and priorities. Also, MGSV was released for last gen consoles too which must have been a limiting factor in some underlying capacity beyond just the visuals.

All polygons wasted on character models so they couldn't go all out on the world. XV dowsn't look bad, but it's really inconsistent, it ranges from pretty bad to really good depending the area and daytime, still should've used way lower poly models for gameplay and higher poly models for cutscenes. It's the oldest trick in the book

competency

> Effective use of them shaves off hundreds or thousands of them in a scene,

That reminds me.

>Also, MGSV was released for last gen consoles too which must have been a limiting factor
This makes it even more mind boggling that it manages to look better than XV in many aspects.

How the fuck does skyrim look better than FFXV, model and detail wise, running on a fraction of the polygon count?

Its what happens when they use their secret technique but the downside is they exchange part of their life for it (pachinko)

Same shit happened with FF14 1.0 and it's super high poly flower pots. Square thinks they can just add polygons until shit looks good.

PC mod, irrelevant. Both of the screencaps in the OP image are pulled from the PS4 versions of each game.

I'd sell my soul to figure out some way to get FOX an Unreal Engine style open source treatment.

Because Kojima's own engine team was always stellar. People tend to forget that despite all the brown and 720p resolution MGS4 still looks great.

That's modded, but still. Good textures and consistent graphics/artstyle can come a long way. Polygons have huge diminishing returns

nope, that is what todd would have released if he didn't have to release on last gen.

The thing is, Luminous is totally capable of pretty stellar graphics. See: the final campfire scene.

The problem is that FOX was built for last gen consoles and yet with scalability to grow alongside the next gen of consoles as well. This forced the team to work their nippon black magic and make it work even on the toastiest of toasters (see: Capcom's MT Framework.)

Luminous, on the other hand, was built with high end PCs in mind. They had to actively scale back elements to fit console spec, and it shows.
I just hope that when the inevitable PC port comes, none of those drawbacks will exist. Tabata's words on the matter have given me hope, but I'll reserve judgement until I see it with my own eyes.

>What is the black magic that is FOX Engine?
probably that and the fact that the luminous engine is still unfinished and a broken piece of shit.
im serious, square doesnt know what the fuck they are doing with that engine even though it potentially has some pretty good tech behind it.

thats why pretty much all future square enix games are moving to UE4 like kingdom hearts 3 and FF7:R.
they were both suppose to use the luminous engine but seeing as they cant even do anything with it, they just decided to move onto a more user friendly engine that works.

>inevitable PC port comes

It's already ported to pc, all they have to do is released the game.

Same with MGS 2, 3 and ZOE. ZOE2 in HD is amazing with all the explosions and shit

and the pachinko game cinematics!

>How the fuck does MGSV look better than FFXV, model and detail wise, running on a fraction of the polygon count?


It doesn't

Photogrammetry

>im serious, square doesnt know what the fuck they are doing with that engine even though it potentially has some pretty good tech behind it.

I think the problem is they have tech that's still too much for modern consoles at acceptable framerate and resolution. If they ever port games made for it to PC then they might flex some muscles the way devs used to do with PC-only features like tesselation and ubersampling. Not to mention, you know, steady performance.

There is always an option, turn on hardware level anti aliasing, or downsample. Depending on game.

And it doesn't seem like they want to change that. Sure Luminous can look great, but that one division is basicly the only team that works with it and even those guys can't really handle it and they're forced to work on XV for like another 2-3 years instead of just releasing the DLC and trying out the engine on a game that doesn't try to push high end graphics

I played V on the 360 before I got a PS4 and holy shit, it's incredible how it runs as well as it does. Granted it's at 30 fps, but the fact it can run at all and look that great on a last gen machine is a testament to how amazingly optimized FOX is.

>running on a fraction of the polygon count?
Who the fuck told you that? What's amazing is that MGSV has double the frame rate.

>thats why pretty much all future square enix games are moving to UE4 like kingdom hearts 3 and FF7:R.
*Ackshually,

In Japan, studios don't use their in-house engines with future games until one is released as an "example" to show it can and does function. A game needs to go from idea to release on an engine to prove it. KH3 and FF7:R were already in development by the time FFXV was almost done, so Luminous wasn't really an option. Making KH3 on it as well was wishful thinking at best, Luminous has been in active development alongside FFXV so it was kind of dumb to have an incomplete engine service and adapt to two games, the same problem plagued Crystal Tools (which is part of why Versus XIII took longer than expected, issues with the engine built for XIII.) SE seemed to have learned from their mistake though, and switched KH3 to UE4 and started FF7:R on UE4.

Now that FFXV is out, however, they're likely going all in on Luminous, especially with all of the partnering with NVIDIA and this video even being a thing youtube.com/watch?v=VSd260qtSYk

Why else do you think 70% of the team is still actively working on XV, other than DLC? SE has to have some kind of sandbox to further test Luminous in, XV seems to be just that.

That kinda makes it their problem though. If devs really wanted they could built an engine that can do the same stuff as Luminous, but a lot of it is either useless or too muc even for 95% of PC users. They just didn't put much thought into it and they needs to stop trying to innovate everytime and make a new engine for ever game.
Just go for lower poly but great lighting and textures like FOX or Frostbite, which technically shouldn't be a problem, but they haven't learned from XIV 1.0

The model for Snake in Ground Zeroes has ~18,000 polygons total.

Noctis' model in XV is ~120,000.
20,000 polygons are dedicated to his hair alone. It's fucking insane.

4 looks better than V in some aspects. Kojima dropped the ball with V, it didn't do anything impressive it merely looked about as good as any other AAA game. The downgrade was real.

>Noctis' model in XV is ~120,000.
LOL you actually believe this don't you?

It's not really a secret that MGSV uses lower poly models, it's not a bad thing since good texturework and animation do way mire than just upping the polycount which FFXV did, at least for ir's main charactera and some aide characters. That's the problem with XV it's way too inconsistent while in games like MGSV or Battlefront everything is in the same level

You seem like the kind of retard that fanboys for shit games like XV and actually think they'll re-use that abortion of an engine.

Am I wrong?

Because Square is retarded and was all about "HOLY SHIT GUYS, 20 MILLION POLYGON HAIR!"

>You seem like the kind of retard that fanboys for shit games like XV and actually think they'll re-use that abortion of an engine.

What's wrong with the engine?

To be fair, you can get good hair even with open world games. Then again some studios like Bioware are still stuck in "plastic helmet" phase so who knows.

But a fraction? Get real. There are minor differences in polygon count and both games had shitty textures more often than not. I won't argue that some games look better than the other at times and that V is overall better looking though.

Because Square Enix can model for shit, during the production of FFXIV they made flower pots with 1K polygons and a shader as complex as one used on player characters. Which is fucking retarded.

Are you suggesting W3 has good hair?

Oh it's you XV-kun.

Answer my question

It's nothing new that for Square, they did the same shitnwith their MMO which ia why they had to rebuilt it from scratch.
There're jugt huge diminishing returns after a certain amount of polygons, but Square is too dumb to learn from their mistakes, NPC models, vegetation etc. everything looks pretty bad compared to the few important character models and even those don't lool that amazing because the AA and textures can't keep up

Answer mine first you autistic sperg.

No, I just know the rationale behind a company that poured a lot of fucking money into an engine and isn't going to give it up that easily.

>but muh Crystal Tools
1) They got 3 games out of that
2) SE wasn't really talking about Crystal Tools at all after XIII (even with Versus in development) meanwhile they've had MULTIPLE EVENTS that promote the Luminous Engine and continue to work on it.

>so Luminous wasn't really an option.

kingdom hearts 3 started development with the luminous engine though. the first reveal + twilight town stuff was done in the luminous engine.
then they had to switch to UE4 because they were having problems with the luminous engine.

>Answer mine first you autistic sperg.

I'm not going to answer a question you asked to someone else. What's wrong with the engine, specifically?

They already shown that the engine is dropped.

>they had to switch to UE4 because they were having problems with the luminous engine.
Yes, because they were making the mistake of treating it as a universal engine just like Crystal Tools when it wasn't even done yet (Just like Crystal Tools.) They knew XV had to be out first, so they redirected Engine focus with XV and switched KH3 to Unreal.

Compared to what? If you're going to start saying hair fixed with tons of hair gel somehow looks better than hair with actual physics applied that's an opinion either way.

First of all, *They've

Secondly, at NVIDIA's latest event (2 weeks ago) they demonstrated Luminous running on their new rendering GPU in real time (specifying that it was Luminous.) This absolutely would not happen if they "dropped" the engine.

Take a looksy yourself.

youtu.be/-JvNAzj0iKk?t=3540 (59 minutes in)

Yeah a fraction. I'm not sayimg that any amount of polygons will make XV look better or that MGSV looks worse,habing lower polgon counts isn't a bad thing. It's just all up to the dev and how they use the modela and textures and lighting and how consistent it is. Even normal soldiers look fine in MGSV because the jump from Snake's to their models isn't as bug as the jump from Noctis' model to random NPC modela which just look bad in XV

But hairworks hair was worse than the normal hair.

Far better than most games and as good as graphically focused asian games, so yeah it is good. Retard.

What games are you even going to pretend have better hair?

>Compared to what? If you're going to start saying hair fixed with tons of hair gel somehow looks better than hair with actual physics applied that's an opinion either way.

You're right,but the Nvidia "HairFX" looks like garbage and the base model looks better.

Is your "s" key broken or are you Spanish?

Because they're trying to keep up national pride showing that Japan still hasn't dropped out of the graphical technology race. SE has always made tech demos and they won't stop. The engine is useless to them though as they've hired a new generation of even more worthless developers to make future games.

We've seen tech demos of the engine in the past too, they have nothing to do with their games. Nothing.

Square blew their wad on the characters, faces, and hair technology, but even then the hair all look like fucking shit because they had to use alpha to coverage "optimization" for consoles so it's ridden with dithering. Get fucked Square.

You actually believe that models in XV are that heavy on polygons.

I'm amazed at how naive you are.

they are just going to use the luminous engine for their movies and UE4 for video games.

now go out and buy another fedora, you've been tipping it so much in this thread its probably worn out already.

The beard looks maybe a bit better than Snake's but that head hair looks so flat and lifeless when compared to BOTH Noctis and Snake.

I'm tired

>LOL you actually believe this don't you?

i dont see how thats hard to believe. look up "polygonal diminishing return".

>now go out and buy another fedora, you've been tipping it so much in this thread its probably worn out already.
I've literally only been arguing why a company like SE woudn't just drop an investment that quickly, especially with the way they've been talking about Luminous even recently.

I don't know about the other guy that started replying and spewing insults about autism. I'm just talking logistics and behavior.

My fucking i3 laptop with integrated gfx can run Ground Zeroes and TPP at stable framerate. A wizard made the Fox Engine.

I wish they would make interesting tech demos again. One guy standing in a room with reused assets from a movie or a few characters running threw a field while the grass bents is basic as fuck shit.

Overall TW3 has better hair though because of the quantity of it. Physics working on all the characters and monsters.

Monsters especially.

Honestly this is barely a tech demo. They probably owed Nvidia a favor so they showed some deleted scenes.

Believe it or not, as i said it's nothing new for Square. The rest of the game can't keep up with the few high poly characters and even high poly characters can look mediocre with bad textures and AA that ruins the hair.
I don't get why you're so against it, i'm not saying that any amount of polygons will make it look better.
Someone should post the image with statue heads and the polygon counts

I'm gonna be honest, most characters from MGSV look like they had more life than that. Something really subtle that I can't quite put my finger on.

Square has never used high poly models. XV isn't an exception.

Alright

I'll argue hard with you on that topic. TW3 did eyes perfectly. Better than any other game I've seen.

MGSV was clunky and awkward with the exception of the scientist at the start you see for 10 seconds and Snake(sometimes, most times he was clunky as well). Whereas TW3 even the most random NPCs looked like they had a lot of life in them. I'll post more screenshots if you continue arguing.

The Africa map is way smaller than Afghanistan

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I'm pretty sure it was cancelled.

How has xv-kun not gone full rage mode in in this thread yet? He was just in the graphics thread minutes ago

>Square has never used high poly models.

youre right, which is exactly why they created the luminous engine to achieve higher poly models.
not even that user other user but it seems like you keep ignoring the "higher poly models doesnt mean better looking" comments hes making.

look up diminishing return in 3D models. that literally explains what square is doing.

Miller's eyes there tell so much. I can feel the tension, pain, rage.

NPC McGee in teh back looks anxious, concerned.

Ocelot looks upset, slightly questioning of Miller, but Miller remains unmoved. You can tell Ocelot's next reaction is going to be something along the lines of an exacerbated sigh.

I'd love to see Witcher 3 shots if you have them, though. I was only really saying that in response to that one image you posted and not every NPC/character.

But Miller is in his default squinty face. He never changes that look! I think you might be insane!!!

...

No you read my post wrong. They have never used high poly models. Not even in this new game.

Okay chief

>NPC McGee in teh back looks anxious, concerned.

yeah, too bad all NPCs pretty much have that face. its pretty much one of their default faces.

at least i can see that youre autistic enough to make up random stories behind that image.

...

yeah, youre right. this scene probably only has like 5 polygons or something. maybe 6. kinda hard to tell.

I wish it was a jungle map. It's a very boring savannah with two parts of jungle
Lying isn't nice, user

That only proves my point but holy fuck you are autistic for posting that.

>But Miller is in his default squinty face.
Yes.
Exactly.

He's unmoving in his determination for revenge. You only really see this let up a but later in the game. And even "unmoving" isn't exactly correct, there are always subtle hints of anger in response to comments, dialogue, etc.

So, in this first image the eyes look way higher quality than the rest of the model and its kind of off-putting. This might just be the settings it was captured at though?

This one definitely looks more forlorn, empty, longing. Again the slight odd feeling from them being a much higher quality asset from the rest of the face, though.

She mad. Pure contempt. I like it. It works here.

>at least i can see that youre autistic enough to make up random stories behind that image.
I'm sorry that I believe in the old adage that a picture speaks a thousand words.

heres a comparison model of lightnings in-game model.

looks like it was only made using 3 polygons. they used big polygons though since it was originally made on ps3.

That guy is right, you are dangerously autistic.

>That only proves my point
????
Noctis' face looks almost fully colored in because of how dense that fucking mesh is.

For your tiny bran I will spell it out for you:

mesh = Polygon mesh = what constructs the 3D model

dense mesh to the point of it looking fully colored in = a lot of fucking polygons

Where did I mention a last gen game?

>youtube quality blurry shit
wew lad.

I'm just not afraid to be creative, user.
Also the "seeing video games as an art form" part helps, too.

>Where did I mention a last gen game?
i was just showing you a comparison between lightings character model and noctis character model and how the two models pretty much have the same exact polygon count.
because, you know, thats what you keep claiming.

Kojimaaaaaaaa