/PnSG/ - Products not Services General

> What is this?
This is a call to arms for all gamers who want to actively change the face of the industry. The Video Game industry is barely protected by Consumer Rights organizations, and it is time to make a change, before our beloved entertainment shrivels up and dies.
> Who the fuck are you?
I am a nobody. Just a gamer like you, and I am sick of it all. I am a nobody and I wish to remain a nobody.
> What the fuck are you doing with this post?
I am trying to see how much interest there is in the general idea of testing our strength as a mass of consumers. I will keep leading this fight in this form until an actual community gets created and more competent people are ready to take the reigns. This kind of endeavor needs people with some PR management experience, and perhaps some lawyers.

CONT

Other urls found in this thread:

defectivebydesign.org/),
techdirt.com/articles/20120703/11345519566/eu-court-says-yes-you-can-resell-your-software-even-if-software-company-says-you-cant.shtml
denuvo.com/
store.steampowered.com/app/384190/ABZU/
twitter.com/NSFWRedditVideo

> What is the endgame?
The endgame is receiving full legal protection as consumers of the Video Game medium. IT can all be done through societal pressure, but the final destination is having laws passed in the defense of the consumer.
> What exactly do you want to see changed?
I personally believe that as a general title, "Products not Services" is a good pointer. I believe that there must be some protection to the most basic rights of a consumer:
Second hand re-sale and refunds, including for digital copies.
Protection of pricing, especially when it comes for what passes as DLC's nowadays, as well as the existence of microtransactions in premium priced games.
Protection of abandonware - With Nintendo hitting all major rom sites for their NES and GB libraries, it got me thinking about the legal status of games that are no longer commercially available.

BUT, and it's a big but, what I believe to be rights not necessarily what the consumer market wants. Therefore, what I really want is to establish an online international community, where the most publicly pressing issues can be decided on, for lack of a better word, "democratically", and placed at the top priority.

> #GamerGate 2.0, shitlord?
No, I aim to build a named community, along with an official channel for statements, rendering trolls and false flags powerless.

CONT

> All right, let's assume for a second I am on board. What's the game plan?
Glad you asked.

1) Conception
This is going on right now. I am checking the air for public interest, and what better place than Sup Forums, where we have gamers of all ages. Kids who are new to it and want to play good games in the future. Adults with jobs who want to relax and have fun games for their kids some day. It might sound petty, but poor business practices are lowering the quality of games.
2) Organization
This is just my opinion, but an official website and non anonymous forum needs to be established. After some discourse, a "manifesto" needs to be drafted, as a statement of intentions. Base tenets must be decided on, that will be the driving force behind the practical changes we demand. Even the title, Products not Services is just a placeholder.
3) First Contact
At this point, it is time to be heard. Letters for various publishers will be written, in personalized form for each. These letters will contain a short introduction of who we are, why we respect that publisher and are talking to them at all, and a presentation of our view on the current state of the business, as well as the changes we demand be enforced.
At the same time, a public statement must be created, one that is a statement of intentions for the public of gamers. It must be not only a statement, but an invitation to join the discourse in the GnS movement, so that each and every gamer can show what issues matter to him. Once again, the focus is on issues in the business side of the industry. If possible, "Garme Journalists" should be contacted, with the request to publish the open letters to the publishers, as well as the open statement.
A special focus should be given to those publishers who hold digital distribution platforms, and are driving forces in the market.

4) Real Work
Let's be honest, while being nice and asking for things might sway some of the smaller birds, it never changed anything. Here comes the real fun. Most of us live in democracies. At some point it will be time to put pressure on democractic representatives. The key driving forces are US state representatives on one side of the point, and EU local representatives on the other. Most of us have ways to contact those representatives - letters, petitions, the whole deal. There must be pressure to put the issue of consumer rights in this industry on the table, as right now there is nobody and nothing protecting you.

> But what power do we have?
Your wallets. Boycotts work, when you don't break because "there's just this one game I HAVE to buy." Consumers have more power than you can imagine, you just have to use it where applicable.

> This will never take off
Not with that attitude it won't.

> Consumer Rights organizations already exist
True, but none of them consist of mostly gamers. Many of them are not familiar with the intricacies and dynamics of this industry. We must work with those organizations, but a driving force must be created.

>lolinternet
I know. But I have the fool's hope enough of you really care about the future of this industry.
Thank you for your time.

Get a job

I'm a student of the sciences and already have a job for the summer. But I am willing to put aside some of my free time for this. Are You?

Include a statement about paid mods and I'm in.

I am with you on that one personally. Once again, if enough people are on board and enough people decide on that being an issue, it becomes an official issue for the movement. Like the idea?

Any idea on what our stance on Piracy should/would be?

I'll state again, my personal opinion should count for little, but I will share it.
I am a filthy pirate, have been for a while. I am also big on the whole "pay after you try" thing. But I also think that with proper second hand re-sale and refund rights in place, piracy will become truly indefensible.

DRM that hurts the consumer, though, is a whole other issue. Piracy is just a red herring for the publishers to distract you with while they fuck up your consumer rights.

We aren't even allowed mods anymore, let alone paid ones

This could work.

This is what caused me to finally draft this first post. I've been mulling the idea for a while now, but after seeing today's news I got really pissed.

It could, aye, but would you be part of it?

Sideline supporters are nice, but this requires activity.

Ya know, if we started writing letters/sending emails to companies about how we might have bought their game if they had put in a demo, maybe giving some examples of other bought games with demos, (Age of Decadence is a great example of demos done right, the entire first area is free to explore) we might be able to see more options of try before you buy. Would definitely help people avoid being burnt.

Im in.

It's a start. As I stated in the "First Contact" step of the big picture of the plan, each publisher will get an letter of introductions from the movement. It must be a letter stating nothing but positive intentions for cooperation. Even start with a personal note of respect and thankfulness for some past endeavors.
But then, those letters must also state a list of expectations of how the industry should change, and change soon.

Is this going to turn into goobergate 2?
Posting just so I can say I was in the first thread.

As an example:
Dear EA,
You guys are cool. You published some cool stuff I love, hell I still replay Harry Potter garms. Also Origin is a cool idea, all in all.

Now to the issue, we are borg, and here's our manifesto. Also, you should personally stop being fags on points 3, 7 and 18 of the manifesto.

Love, gamers.
Signed, as many signatures as we can get.

1- you're not on reddit and you need to shrink that walltext
2- I still dont get what the smart consumer can do when you've a bunch of kids salivating due to hype and marketing
3- all it comes down to is being against DRM, there are already such organizations (eg defectivebydesign.org/), though a gaming specific one wouldnt hurt

It's an uphill battle. The biggest hurdle is that the entire media are essentially advertisers.

Most demos hurt sales compared to only releasing a trailer. It's hard to make a good demo that would sell a good game and most games are too shitty for one that would paint it in a good light.

Not that it can't work but every one of those fucks' job is on the line.

Gamergate failed due to a bunch of Sup Forums trolls and SJW false flags. Having a centralized channel of contact will remove liability for idiots.

1 - Never been on reddit, but noted. I literally just drafted this 5 minutes ago to get it out there on Sup Forums

2 - Bunch of kids, aye, but a lot of us are no longer kids. We are parents, young adults, oldfag adults who want this industry to succeed. We want GOOD GAMES, and current business practices let mediocrity flourish.
3 - That is my point. By gamers, for gamers. Would you be on board?

> uphill battle
Yes, but I am willing to fight it. Are you?
> demos
Demos are out of style for the reason you stated. That's why I personally agree with you. But, as I said, I want this movement to be run by general opinion, not mine.

>end aggressive anti-consumer practices
>end day one dlcs
>end purposefully cut content
>end developement of dlc pre game launch
>broken shit games at launch
> 80% funds "spent" on marketing instead of developement

all video game developers/publishers are guilty of these issues. brand loyaltists need not apply.

It also doesn't help that so much of Gamergate was active on Twitter of all places. You have a bunch of people that can type #Gamergate and try to act as representatives of the movement. Too much chaos.

Also they will turn it into no matter how you organize it.

I'm pretty much over vidya and keyboard warrioring but if you get a nonprofit up and running and need a statistician who understands marketing and social psych this time next year, I'm game. Senior year is going to be a bitch. Otherwise I'm down to put these skills to use.

EU already legislated in favor of second-hand digital software but it's never been enforced.

techdirt.com/articles/20120703/11345519566/eu-court-says-yes-you-can-resell-your-software-even-if-software-company-says-you-cant.shtml

I also sent SE europe a complaint letter for never stating additional DRM and TOS clauses in the boxed version of the shitty PC games they sell, they answered with the generic BS to contact the retailer.
Local consumer association also never considered the case

>Just a gamer like you
kys

Well said, even though I don't agree on some points. That last one is spot on, in my taste. Are you willing to fight actively though?

That's why an official account is key, as well as a non anonymous forum/community, maybe even a website.

Thank you for chiming in, mate. I am a student myself, freshman of sciences, no less. But I would donate some of my free time.
I aim to keep it non profit. If it ever explodes big time there might be need for legal advice, and I would only accept volunteer work. Surely, one among us is qualified.
That is why we need more people than just you. And we need to push for enforcement.
No. Thanks for the bamp.

It's like a physical form of autism given the ability to speak

Thank you.

Only fat shits call themselves gamers.

I did put on a bit of weight since I started university, but I am mostly skelly.

What news doe

The whole GTA killing mods thing. I don't even play GTA but that shit along with Bethesda's new old tricks pushed me over.

Oh okay. Yeah, that sucks.
Yeah, someone needs to confront Take Two about the tool in question being unable to modify online.
It's funny that their damage control came from TT and not from Rockstar.

As for your call to arms or whatever, developers aren't the ones making up those rules, the federal government is the one allowing them to sell you limited licenses instead of products. Write to your congressman or something.

>The biggest hurdle is that the entire media are essentially advertisers.

Even bigger hurdle is that internet has fucked up mainstream non-game specific media to huge degree. Those have become exposed frauds and underfunded after internet started to replace print media and subscriptions went away. Same quality issues with practically uneducated journalists that your and combine that with universities turning into politically polarized brainwashing institutions.

You know what could really help is a better image. MS paint writing on a white background doesn't exactly draw attention. Getting an artist/someone in marketing to help create a banner would help with awareness.

Governments don't care and publishers abuse it. That is why I said, address publishers first, contact democratic representatives second. The markets on both sides of the pond must be WOKE, thus hitting a big enough chunk of their cheese to cause damage.

I literally drafted this post in 5 minutes. I was hoping that enough interest would rise that some drawfag would show support, since I am talentless in that area. I was not banking on this thread, either. I intend to post twice-thrice a day until enough people are aware of this.

Make women illegal in the vidya industry and I'm in.

Rally the troops elsewhere. Sup Forums, or rather this site in general, is not a base of operations for (sl)activism.

i think the first stage of the whole movement begins with us: we must stop preordering games. we must stop buying season passes and of course, and a cool thing to happen would be if we stop buying games on day one

>publishers abuse it.
They're working within the law, if the law doesn't change they have no reason (moral or otherwise) to change their licensing scheme. This spans all sorts of entertainment, not just games.
Some seriousl legislation would need to happen to change that in any way, but they tend to benefit corporations.
All you can really do is support developers who actually deliver products and don't try to control what you do with them, like the gog fags.

I do not see this as a base. I want to make another base. I am just hoping to harvest the power of Sup Forums's rage to get some initial interest.

I am with you on that one. Are you willing to stop doing it yourself?

Just showing support for the good guys doesn't work. It's time for actual activism. As I said, start by asking nicely for the sake of positive contact, and then start working through democratic channels for the sake of getting legislation passed. You are right about law needing to change, that's the whole point of the ordeal. But laws don't change on their own, someone needs to want it to happen. Do you want it?

>Just showing support for the good guys doesn't work.
Oh it absolutely does. Now everyone and their mom sells their games on that site, back in the day it was only ancient shit. If sales suddenly exploded, everyone would be trying to replicate their success.

My problem with this whole deal is how much it sounds like gaymergate and how much of a wet fart that whole deal was.

GoG, with all my love, is a positive change but showing them support is simply not enough. Each videogame is a unique experience, and GoG does not have it all. We need to cut the bullshit off at the legislative level, and I once again stress how much consumer rights matter in this deal. I personally believe that re-sale rights will finally let the forces of market supply and demand into this industry, which is immune to them due to the whole "digital" and "service not product" thing.

And gaymergate failed by having no official voice. It let itself become synonymous with my soggy knees trolls and shitposting, so much so that it's the official description of it on Wikipedia, and even past supporters see it as such. I do not intend to let that happen again.

I support your idea, the problems in the industry need to be acknowledged and solved. Day one Dlcs, false advertising and unoptimized games need to go.

By the way, your Name is spelled wrong "ProdCUTS". But woleheartedly agree with your message.

Thank you. Would you be willing to actually actively work for such goals though?
Thanks. I guess the excitement got over me.

I'm in user, my only fear is that this becomes another chanology/gamergate thing. Hoping people will behave like adults if this becomes a thing.

As a central point, I want this to be a non-anonymous movement with a central official voice. It prevents trolls and idiots from speaking for the rest of us.

>Are you willing to stop doing it yourself?
i already did

I already stopped buying most products made by AAA companies, but it hardly matters. The "Normie" audience still falls for the scheme and blunders like "For Honor" go unpunished

With enough noise ,even the normies will stir. The end goal is putting the main issues of consumer rights in the VideoGame industry on the table. On the actual table of legistlative authorities.

I might be in
If this isn't going to be dead in a week i might consider having a look and participating
Not really sure it's anything's gonna happen but we can try

It won't die in a week, it will only start in a week. I intend to post this twice a day for at least a week to garner some initial interest.

Free bump

Thanks user. I like you.

denuvo.com/

why do they keep pushing this "it's not DRM" BS?
it has to periodically connect to servers, links the product to a specific hardware ID code, limits 5 activations per day (and oven OC fucked up activations)

if you're ever going to do anything, call them out on this and force steam/origin/uplay to show the additional drm, not everyone does it on the store page

eg store.steampowered.com/app/384190/ABZU/

You're all idiots. Learn basic capitalism

I like your idea, user. If we ever create a solid group, feel free to join and make your voice heard.


I would like to repeat. I intend for this movement to have, at its core, a non-anonymous community for the sake of showing a cross section of the game-consuming populace and finding out what issues and changes are most interesting to it.

Thanks, grandpa.

And I like the idea you're striving for. As a medium grows to the size that the video game industry has and still has the kind of bullshit practices, things really do need to change. So many things that are done in this industry would have been fought against tooth and nail if it were most other industries

The industry is old enough to be a grandpa at this point, but due to some semantics it avoids both the forces of a market, and the rules that bind it. I just intend to bind the industry with the same rules that apply to others.

I doubt there will be any use doing this on Sup Forums. This particular demographic doesn't matter to developers in the slightest, and any demographic that does matter that frequents here is just going along with memes whenever they voice opinions. Sup Forums is a shit hole full of kids and faggots.

You'd unironically have better luck on Reddit. The world simply does not give a shit what the average Sup Forumsirgin thinks.

I support your cause, but given how fucked the industry is, expect someone somewhere with the tiniest hint of influence to demonize everything you're doing. Of course, I'm not saying you shouldn't go for it, but I am saying that it won't be easy. I just hope you have the resolve to rise above.

That worked really well for CAFO meat.

I just posted here as a first instinct to get some interest and just get the word out there. I will try several other channels in a few days, after posting 2-3 times a day here for a while. I just want to test the water and see if there's interest.
Also, Sup Forums has all kinds. Not everyone is underageb& here.

Mate, you have no idea.

tl;dr

Some BS that is on the limit of legal activity

as said
>not disclosing the DRM used or staight up lying on the nature of the technology used
>flase advertisement, promotional bullshots, "we didnt downgrade" (eg witcher 3)
>on disc DLC
>selling season passes without any info on the content, often resulting in shitty ones (eg shadow of mordor, arkham knight)
>gambling and lootboxes, (dota, csgo, overwatch), winning stats should be disclosed and the practice prohibited to underages (eg cant sell a PEGI 12 or E rating if the game contains any of this)

after that obviously push for DRM free, no online limitations for SP games and second hand digital games

> gambling legistlation for lootboxes
Unless they are only free-drop lootboxes, I bet? That is just random loot. I like the idea.

There's a lot of apathetic teens on this board, they'll generally be the ones to try and tear you down, don't listen to 'em. I'm more than willing to support something like this, there is nothing wrong with pursuing pro-consumer ideas in an industry that bends its bread and butter over backwards. There are way too many blind corporate dick suckers in the video game industry

>selling season passes without any info on the content
fallout 4 doubling the season pass price with generic statements

also forgot being able to freely tamper and modify (for personal use ) purchased software

I noticed the edge already. Don't worry, I am not easily discouraged.

The whole modding/tampering thing is what pushed me over the edge to actually try and do something.

Bump for justice

>trying to make a difference
>on Sup Forums
Do you remember what happened last time they tried this shit? Take it somewhere else we have too many self righteous little twats around here to begin with

>I'm in user, my only fear is that this becomes another chanology/gamergate thing.

That is how corporations like that things would turn out to be and corporate interests now control the actual mainstream general purpose media as well as gaming press/blogs.

>Hoping people will behave like adults if this becomes a thing.

This is internet, Sup Forums out of all places... unlikely to happen.

That is why at the center there should be a central, official channel to actually voice the concerns and demands of the community. Not a random hashtag every troll uses for the sake of greater lols, but an official twitter account, an official forum, an official website.

> What is this?
This is fucking gay.

I'm too lazy for real activism, but way ahead of you in that stuff.
I can't comprehend people who preorder. The first and last time I did that kind of shit was at 12 years old.

Thanks, I think this is a jolly chance too.

Folks like Electronic Frontier Foundation, it's chapters around the world, others like free software movement and open source movement have been civil about our digital rights as people or just as consumers for couple decades. Corporate interests have prevailed with very few concessions made to people or consumers in practically every western country.

It's NOT gay if it's a feminine penis

Well, I'm interested. But how do you address the fact that the last major "gamer" movement got our opinions discarded? Our pull power as the gamer demographic is less since people took GG as a way to troll. If I recall, the current consensus is that gamers are a dead demographic.

Thanks for your input, but "it has not worked before" is no argument. You either demand what you deserve or take it up the arse.

Who's "our"? We concentrate our concerns it well formed official statements and letters. We build up positive discourse with the public, including and ESPECIALLY the opposition. We find key players in the "garme journalist" scene who are willing to spread the word, if only for the sake of reporting on what is happening.

If we build intelligent discourse around the issue, as well as proper, centralized contact with the relevant channels, no amount of my soggy knees will shut us up.

I want services not products.

I want to be able to buy a game like battlegrounds and know it's going to get updated consistently over the course of several years

I understand that for games like this, the devs take on recurring costs such as servers, support, etc, and that this is far more in keeping with a service than it is with a discrete product.

I appreciate the direction that game development has taken, see the necessity for it, and enjoy the fruits of it.

I'm good, thanks.

Certain games are services. Games that have no singleplayer content often are. But even those are compromised. When you pay for a service you want to know exactly how long you get it for. When you pay for a video game, you basically toss your money to the wind. Support like the support you want can disappear at any moment, and nobody will be accountable.

I actually considered what you said before posting, but then I remembered that I purchased Pokemon Black 2, and within less than a year I could not play it online anymore.

>Thanks for your input, but "it has not worked before" is no argument. You either demand what you deserve or take it up the arse.

Copyrights, patents and trademarks laws around world tend to be written by corporate lobbying groups and in international level like in EU, even more so. EU exists to centralize corporate lobbying in Europe. Then legal frameworks on even wider international level like trade deals between EU and other major economies tend to combine worst parts of both EU and other partners law.

In US huge amount of patent lawsuits are made in few small counties. Why? Because those have easiest to manipulate courts and multinational corporations can base their US subsidiary there in a fucking mail box, even if their actual offices are in NY, LA or SF Bay Area.

>armchair activism

> Sup Forums gives a fuck about videogames
Who the fuck does if not this board?

No good reason to take it up the ass silently.

typical shitposting weeb faggot. I'm in OP.

Have a bump

Jokes on you I pirate everything. But if you stop some sales with it to the greedy (((publishers))) thatd be nice

>Guys devolver digital totally opened my eyes xD

The whole weird half-way line with Hitman 2016 kind of exemplifies the stronger parts of your point. Especially now that IOI and the hitman franchise has been cut loose from SQUENIX, it calls all sorts of things into question (will there come a point where SQUENIX nolonger wants to host the hitman content on their servers, and how will that affect the game?)

I think we already see that devs approach this as a choice, though, which is what makes me wonder about the necessity for this movement. Maybe including language to focus in on the triple-A studios' consistent attempts to push even singleplayer games into a kind of service-based purgatory in order to attach users to their content platforms (origin, uplay, squenix account, rockstar social club, etc etc etc etc )

I'd also encourage you to have protections from outright losing access to accounts for saying "le toxic mean words" in online games, like trash talk.

We need some form of First Amendment type protection against corporate censorship on the internet eventually. It's becoming ridiculous and potentially very harmful in the long run for society as a whole.

This is honestly the worst, most cringiest thing I have ever seen on Sup Forums. Worse than Goobergate.

>No good reason to take it up the ass silently.

Consumer campaigns like boycotts may or may not work, most likely those won't. Writing to the your senator/congressman/MP/MEP won't have much effect either as they are funded by lobbyists. Gaining media traction and visibility is almost impossible as corporate interests that fund politicians also own both news media and digital media.

I spend little to no money on AAA-releases, because most of those are trash. Indie publishers are usually more cooperative to both gaming communities and have less fucked up DRM's.

If you actually want to change laws, it will takes years of campaigning and will have little to no effect due to media blackout on campaigns that wont follow corporate interests. In the end getting 50k signatures for a law suggestion for parliament that will be likely voted out on committee level before it even gets on parliament floor will take a lot of work. Getting signatures to form a party or just election committee to support single candidate requires actual work is pretty hard to do with current youth. I have been active in forming a pirate party about decade ago, but not getting a candidate trough in two successive general elections means you have to get all the signatures all over again. Same applies to libertarian parties, autistic ancaps can't get it done once, but for some reason between 70 year old and dead commies with decades of party background can do it all over again even after they do their once a decade splitting into two parties after some ego's get too inflated.

lol epic post my man xD upvote!

Good. expect more posts today and over the week.
Thanks, user. I like you.
wat
You're reading my mind, mate.
Maybe, but it's not in line with the central part of the movement in my eyes (the business side of the industry.) I might be wrong, that's why I want this movement to be run, for lack of a better term, democratically.
If this is the worst and the cringiest, you must be new.

Don't care, not trying is worse than failing.