How do we save the Diablolike sub-genre, Sup Forums...

How do we save the Diablolike sub-genre, Sup Forums? Surely shallow mouseclick combat and pointless loot treadmills can't be the pinnacle of video game design?

I just want an isometric ARPG that doesn't have an awful economy system. I liked the concept of having a WoW-like auction house in one. I don't want to have to go to a specific person each and every time I need to obtain a specific item.

We make it first person

Melee combat is best in third person though, and I think fantasy is better for this genre

>Surely shallow mouseclick combat and pointless loot treadmills can't be the pinnacle of video game design?

I don't understand, do you want more diablo games or not

What's wrong with cyberpunk?
Laser swords, guns, augments, mutations, ayys, turrets

Make it more action oriented instead of a boring clickfest.

Less standing like a pole, less damage soaking because 99vit
More dodging and rolling, more movement, more fast

But mouseclick combat is just a technological limitation because the first game was based on turn-based RPGs back in 96. Just because mario became 3d doesn't mean it's still not mario. And loot treadmills aren't bad, it's just that the entire focus of the genre seems to be grinding until the best items feel like dropping, and then you've reached the pinnacle. I think the loot should be a tool for you to complete your quest, not the quest itself.

>I think the loot should be a tool for you to complete your quest, not the quest itself.

Monster Hunter does this well.

Maybe if they did some outlandish science fantasy like jodorowskys comics

You mean like dark souls?

I literally threw up in my mouth a little.

not that guy but maybe something more like Battlerite/Bloodline Champions combat

>diablolike

It's called hack-n-slash.

Evaluating damage rates and managing buffs is infinitely more enjoyable than autistic dodge rolling.

Yeah except no-one ever other than maybe you use that phrase. 'a(ction)rpg' is the terminology if you want to communicate with the rest of the world.

BLC is based around pvp though, I don't think it would work the same as with mass PvE

plus cooldowns fucking suck dick

"Action RPG" encapsulates much more than diablo clones.

It's diablolike similar to roguelike. Named after the first prominent game of the genre.

Hack'n'slash gets people imagining all kinds of different games that are no longer diablolikes. Hence it's better to use diablolike so people know what we're talking about.

Real mechanics to boss fights other than "don't stand in shit" and unconsensual world PVP

Doesn't have to be limited by cooldowns in a similar way. Simply the control scheme of wasd movement and mouse aiming with aimed melee and mostly skillshot abilities.

Oh god this. Cooldowns are the worst.

They're ok if the point is to stop you casting Blizzard every ten frames but when it's just a con to try and make you use more abilities it's terrible.

[stationary clicking noises on hell difficulty]

>Diablo is an action role-playing hack and slash video game developed by Blizzard North and released by Blizzard Entertainment on December 31, 1996.
hmm really makes me think

only if you're a huge weeb

Literally everyone refers to diablo games as diablo-clones or aRPGs

Grim Dawn is the best effort so far.

It might have been originally called that but it's stupid to use genre definitions that aren't actually defining anything.

People will use hack and slash to describe all kinds of different games where you hack and slash. ARPG is another that's so generic that literally anything with action and rpg elements goes under it.

If you say diablolike people instantly know what you're talking about.

People also use ARPG to talk about souls games or fucking zelda or whatever.

Grim Dawn is just as boring and outdated gameplay-wise as all the other games in the genre.

>zelda
>arpg
>rpg

man like why are you even here

>Surely shallow mouseclick combat and pointless loot treadmills can't be the pinnacle of video game design?
but all vidya does that. hopefully, you're able to realize that. if not, then give it some time.

do you really want more borderlands clones?

Because I like diablolikes.

I guarantee some fuck out there would call zelda games arpgs. It's such a fucking generic definition that it's almost useless when talking about games.

Borderlands was fucking terrible and didn't have a lot of the features that diablolikes usually have. And first person doesn't have to boil down to 100% shooting.

I hope your dad rapes you full of AIDS

Just play MedianXL

My dad is dead.

I'd also like to hear why you think that. What did I say that got you so frustrated?

By the sound of it you don't like hack-and-slash games at all.

Sorry, but my epilepsy prevents me

I swear you're in every thread. That mod is so shit that I'd rather eat my own shit than play it. Take it the fuck away from these threads and stop pretending its "the right way to play d2" or whatever.

Any of youse played Median XL? How is it?

>My dad is dead.

Of AIDS related complications

He caught years of transvestite dogging

Pimped by your mother's bull

It's fine, they changed the skills and made the game harder. So you don't usually do the regular D2 builds, but you still invest 300 points in vit

I like diablolikes very much. I still occasionally go back to d1 and d2, I have like 2000 hours in D3 and probably closing in 5000 hours of PoE.

I still think that a lot of the features of the genre are outdated and I'd like to see developers try some fresh things with it.

Complete shit, ruined by years of inbreeding with it's top 5 most autistic fans. Incredibly overblown, unwieldy and top heavy

>being this mad over a mod

Maybe slightly more towards Savage

Kinda like how D3 did but then everybody complained it wasn't just a copy pasted rehash?

Wait for Blizzard to release Diablo 4. Just like they revolutionized the genre with the third instalment.

What do you honestly think D3 did that was fresh?

Protip: dumbing down is not fresh.

>I'd like to see developers try some fresh things with it.


For example?

yeah fucking regressives, how can't they love things like real money auction houses, wow artstyle, loot built around two stats or the worlds worst storyline?

D3 still plays the best out of all diablolikes I've played. It fails in character building and a lot of it's design. Like the item set and legendary power focused itemization that absolutely ruins any kind of creativity. On top of that it has gotten fuckall support from blizzard even when it is one of the best selling games of all time.

Doesn't change the fact that it just feels good to play.

Do you really think they'll make a fourth game? I heavily doubt it. They even canceled the 2nd expansion for D3 and just released the Necromancer as a standalone.

Like the earlier discussed new controls/gameplay elements.

>Like the earlier discussed new controls/gameplay elements.


Dodge rolling?

Like D3 on console?

>D3 still plays the best out of all diablolikes I've played.
That's nothing "fresh", that's having satisfying animations and physics. You're not answering the question.

there's nothing good about diablo-like games, and you seem to understand that. why are you here asking for them to be 'saved'

GUYS WAIT
WHAT IF
HOLD ON
WHAT IF WE COMBINED
DARK SOULS GAMEPLAY/ATMOSPHERE
WITH DIABLO'S PROCEDURALLY GENERATED LOOT/DUNGEONS? ALSO INCLUDE TRADE AND OPEN WORLD PVP CENTERED AROUND HUBS

>there's nothing good about diablo-like games, and you seem to understand that
but I love them
simplistic point-n-click gameplay isn't bad, just simplistic, if you could keep the fun and excitement but add another layer of skill, then that would be fucking amazing 10/10 play all my life

Because, fucktits, dodge rolling makes stats redundant

>INCLUDE TRADE
into the trash it goes

Things D3 did that were fresh:
- an auction house except let's face it jsp and chinese rmt sites had existed for years
- nothing else

Just stop making it an isometric click fest.

There's nothing to fix. D3 sucked but PoE and Grim Dawn both get the job done.

>Make it more action oriented instead of a boring clickfest.
That's literally the console version of Diablo 3

>Surely shallow mouseclick combat and pointless loot treadmills can't be the pinnacle of video game design?
desu that's not really what made the originals so fucking popular, it goes well beyond the genre.

Let's go over it again:
>one of the few big online titles at the time with free online service
>rock solid stability and responsive GUI
>exploration-based with traps and dangers at every step
>many interactions between players, whether cooperation, trade, duelling or PKing
>dark mood and serious tone

Inventory Tetris and clicking was only secondary to its success. It has its charm, but that's not what made it so good, it's everything else.

Ironically, it's what Souls games managed to capture, but that every other Diablo-clone failed to do, because of their light-hearted tones, lack of multiplayer focus, and most importantly, the death of good PvP and PKing. And on top of it, Souls games provided the much needed update to gameplay, because Diablo's gameplay is quite simply outdated.

It's no wonder most Diablo fans eventually moved to Guild Wars, it continued on the same line of player interaction and PvP focus, and GvG was just what they needed. But the tone was gone, and the exploration quite diminished.

I'd be interested in seeing third and first person diablolikes that still stick to the core elements of the genre like procgen, itemization, skills and character building. On top of that trying out different control schemes in the top down model would be interesting. I think Battlerite controls might work fairly well in a diablolike.

Oh I sort of failed on quoting you. Another user claimed that D3 was fresh.

Well it didn't happen until the expansion but they got rid of the usual difficulty system where you play through the same game multiple times. Scaling all content to level was also quite different. Not sure if D3 vanilla did anything that special itself. I suppose the Rune system was kind of a push towards more skill diversity, it's just that the balance team absolutely failed to pull that off.

Didn't Bloodborne have some sort of procgen dungeons in it? I haven't played it but I think I've heard something like that.

Nioh was still a handmade and designed game world wasn't it?

>Diablolike
It´s called hack&slash.

>I'd be interested in seeing third and first person diablolikes that still stick to the core elements of the genre like procgen, itemization, skills and character building.
>first person diablolikes

It's called Kings and Heroes and it's shit and nobody plays it.

Souls series has dodge rolls and stats are anything but redundant

yeah bloodborne did have it but Bloodborne doesn't have any good loot in those dungeons, you just grind crafting materials in them which is infinitely more boring than chasing that one item

play Nioh.

>liked D3: ROS, stopped releasing new content in seasons
>liked Grim Dawn, no season or ladder or anything for online
>liked Marvel Heroes, fucking clownshoes constantly try to ruin the game

>Kings and Heroes
I've looked at it in Steam quite a few times but EA and fairly poor reviews have put me off.
>it's shit
Well gee. Maybe someone needs to make a good game like that.

Were the dungeons themselves any good?

Why don't you buy the necromancer :)

diablo has better atmosphere than dark souls though
a diablo 4 or spiritual successor should have melee combat like dark souls in that you have parries and different moves and shit, but keep the freedom of movement of mouse-controlled games (chivalry for example)
Ranged combat should also be much better than it is in dark souls, with fast, free mouse aim much like any FPS game
melee skills from your skill tree should give you larger movesets, so if we take smite from the d2 pally, instead of it being some special button you press, pressing attack when holding up your shield now performs a shield bash, though ranged skills and spells would generally be like weapons you equip in a FPS

also it should be semi-open world because it's basically what diablo 2 was going for all along. People might not think it's spooky enough for diablo, but let's face it, being stuck in the forest in the middle of the night is just as spooky as entering some crypt

mass online interactions totally go against the whole genre though, being the savior against evil is fucking stupid when there's hundreds of saviors against evil running around, though small parties should still be fine, and maybe invasion pvp too

No. They were reused enemies and bosses from the main game.

Fuck off, not everything should be Dark Souls.

>keep the freedom of movement of mouse-controlled games

>nu-Blizzard
>revolutionized the genre

doubt that. Overwatch is a shit League/TF2 clone. SC2 is literally a bad SC. Warcraft 4 wil be mobile game.

console fags out

diablo is a pc title mainly, and I don't know if you could make movement as good with a controller as you could with a mouse
a melee-centric pc game doesn't need lockon for example

>Well it didn't happen until the expansion but they got rid of the usual difficulty system where you play through the same game multiple times. Scaling all content to level was also quite different.
It's also the laziest possible way to "deal" with difficulty tuning, and is yet another case-in-point for D3's completely arbitrary game design.

>casual morons didn't like scrolls of identification, so we just removed them. to preserve the """magic""" of identifying items, you now get to stand for 3 seconds to identify every single item
>casual morons didn't like building their own skill trees, so we just removed them. now you unlock a skill every level based upon no rhyme or reason whatsoever.
>switching skills is too easy now, too, so every time you want to do it you have to teleport to base and wait for half a fucking minute
>we didn't make enough content to go through to max level in one go, but we'll remove difficulties anyway. fuck coherence, now the player can do our job for us by tuning their own difficulty. the mob can have 1'000 HP or 10 x e^10 HP, you choose™©!!

One actual way to get over this problem of how to remove difficulty levels is MAKING CONTENT TO FILL YOUR LEVEL PROGRESSION. See PoE's latest expansion.

Seriously, fuck this game in the ass so hard. No gameplay mechanics come out of some coherent design philosophy, it's just bandaids upon bandaids that fix the dumbing down Blizzard went for to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

>I suppose the Rune system was kind of a push towards more skill diversity, it's just that the balance team absolutely failed to pull that off.
That and like the other change you mentioned, it isn't really a fundamental gameplay overhaul that would "save" this genre. Skill trees are just as functional, and in fact more rewarding to the player.

>Do you really think they'll make a fourth game? I heavily doubt it. They even canceled the 2nd expansion for D3 and just released the Necromancer as a standalone.
David Brevik already confirmed that they're absolutely going to do Diablo 4. He just doesn't know what kind of game it will be.
They cancelled the expansion because the attachment rates to expansions have dropped considerably. They're most likely going to sell the Druid class as another 15€ class pack in the Diablo 3 store, as well as other minor shit while they develop Diablo 4 with another team.

I think Blizzard realized that Diablo 3 has serious structural design flaws that are not worth addressing unless you rebuild the entire game, which they obviously are not going to do, so they might as well do it in a sequel.

>Souls series has dodge rolls and stats are anything but redundant

ahahaha no they aren't, you're not supposed to get hit in DS, the game makes it possible to avoid all damage, people beat those games without even leveling up.

H&S comes from the roguelike where having the right resistances, items and weapons is essential.

but Souls formula make everything better.

>Maybe someone needs to make a good game like that

It wasn't the classes, items or skills that sucked

HINT, first person is shit for the genre because it severely limits your FOV and the level design and enemies have to be endumbened to compensate

Look at borderland's shitgasm of bulletsponge mobs

How would this be different from normal FPS games? Or are you saying that the randomized levels and meatgrinder mobs in diablo clones are actually smarter than in any FPS?

inal l honesty if it wasn't for always online drm and the real money ah i bet yeah Sup Forums would have 24 threads about it. We all know everyone on here bought it but that 9/11 of a launch is what stopped everyone from playing in the long run.

>DPS and buffs aren't in action games
>facetanking is more engaging than learning the tells of every attack a boss has, how to avoid them and how to capitalize on the opening
Three guesses who hasn't played an action game before.

people usually return for season starts but Diablo 3's problem is in its shit skill/rune/legendary/set items system that makes 2 builds viable per class and that's it.
The devs essentially come up with builds, design them, and then say "here you can use this". It should be the other way around. It should be the players designing builds based on items and skills that exist in the game.

Friend demands I play Diablo 3 with him
I've never played 1 or 2
I give both of them a try for an hour and they're just too ancient and clunky for me

I ruined myself by playing things like PoE and Grim Dawn first and trying to go back to the old things

On top of that the last like 5 seasons have had absolutely fuckall new content. They stopped putting in any effort.

diablo 2 actually has less clunky combat than PoE, it's basically the same except PoE's animation team was less talented

PoE's combat has improved massively in the last year or two.

>PoE
>not clunky or ancient looking

D3 is by far the easiest game in the genre to get into.

Like how? I played it as recently as fall, as far as I can tell it's the same, except the lategame has become too overpowered so you're blowing up trash mobs like they don't exist

things poe does right

>audiovisuals
>skills
>story not bad

things poe does wrong

>character costumes / customization: either look shit or pay 100€ for some cool looking armor
>difficulty non existant? you oneshotting all mobs and mobs oneshotting you taking turns.
>endgame content.. whats the point of running thru maps oneshotting everything from t1-t16
>no teamplay or wits or mechanical skills required in this game
>most builds are just "spam Q and flasks"

That's true, but also I noticed one thing. PoE's animations are sort of played with the assumption that they're going to be played constantly, for example that if an attack takes 1 second and you hold the skill for 2 seconds, your character will be moving the entirety of those 2 seconds to perform two attacks.

Whereas D2 animations are all relatively short, and the wait is in the -cooldown- of the attack, and not in the animation itself being slowed.

If they adjusted this thing alone I think PoE would have a vastly more satisfying combat system.

Grim Dawn and PoE are the ancient ones. Diablo 3 evolved Diablo 2.

>evolved = dumbed down

>How would this be different from normal FPS games?

Imagine trying to play the rogue monastry Jail or act 2 sewers as a melee character in first person.