>Make real time action combat system with lots of quirks and mechanics.
>Make battles almost completely dependant on stats making said combat system redundant.
How can you fuck up such an important aspect in an ARPG? Dark Souls is hardly perfect in this regard but at least there is a semblance of balance between the Action and the RPG.
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im glad that people finally got over the flashy animations and are starting to call the game out on this
>Comparing Dragons Dogma with le Dark Souls
If you want to play an action game go play an action game. Don't shit up Dragons Dogma with your terrible opinions.
>making said combat system redundant.
But it doesn't.
>make battles almost completely dependant on stats
Stats do not matter much at all except maybe hp gains. Equipment trumps stats over so much. The difference between someone who trained their stats until 200 and someone who didn't give a fuck until 200 is only a couple of hits, on a boss, in a game with already fast paced combat.
Maybe not *redundant*, but you've gotta admit that designing a complex combat system and then tying everything to stats is pretty fucking stupid.
It doesn't make it redundant, as enemies have weaknesses you can exploit for much faster kills. Not just statistical weaknesses.
My god 'stats' is obviously just a shorthand for all game features that numerically affect the strength of your character, including equipment, how much of a pedant do you have to be to say this
it's just numbers bro, every weapon in every video game has numbers
>Equipment trumps stats over so much.
Since when does equipment not have stats?
>Dark Souls
>balance
>can get 1-2 shot by anything
>have to cheese game with roll spam and spec stamina
>muh difficulty
I even cheated my souls once to get unlimited souls, leveled up all the way to the max, upped every stat to the max, made no difference, especially in endgame. Dark Souls isn't an RPG, at least Dogma allows you to actually gain actual power thru the levels, like an ACTUAL RPG, not some rogue-like that fancies itself a dark fantasy RPG like Souls.
>tying everything to stats
As far as I can tell the only thing stats do is decide how much damage you deal and your total HP and stamina. Half your damage comes from your equipment and defense is all equipment. Basically, being "under-leveled" just means make sure you don't get hit and you have to hit them more before they do, the actual mechanics of combat never changes.
>Dark Souls isn't an RPG, at least Dogma allows you to actually gain actual power thru the levels, like an ACTUAL RPG.
Except Dark Souls actually does have a shitload of stuff you can't use until you reach the proper stat requirements.
>Basically, being "under-leveled" just means make sure you don't get hit and you have to hit them more before they do
Yeah what the fuck else would it mean.
Well it seems the OP is implying it's not possible to fight something that is out of your stat range because stats is all that matters. I'm saying that's not true, it just means you have to avoid being hit because you won't survive many of them. The game gives you plenty of ways to avoid attacks and, as far as I remember, none are dependent on stats.
>waaaaah videogame has numbers!
>meanwhlie Dark Souls is literally "roll three times, hit three times, a hundred times"
What an idiotic argument.
>waah why are there stats in RPG
Pft.
I've played the entirety of game switching vocations left and right and being fashionista whole way through, my stats were all over the fucking place and i had no significant troubles at any given time as any vocation. The only exception would be the retarded Death which requires periapt no matter were minmaxing like an autist or not, and Daimon, which is the same story, so it's practically irrelevant.
>Well it seems the OP is implying it's not possible to fight something that is out of your stat range because stats is all that matters. I'm saying that's not true
You could but nobody in their right mind would. Try going to Bitterblack Isle early game and you'll see its simply not a matter of "getting good", the game completely cockblocks you with damage output that's so miniscule it might as well be 0. The vanilla game will also pretty much never put you in a situation were you need to actually play skillfully, you're either the right level or you're not. Only playing Dark Arisen end game has the game force you to actually pay attention.
90% of DD is simply a game that will never challenge you, you have an arsenal of abilities and tools you never have to use, not unlike MGSV. The game's Hard Mode could've fixed this, but it's an absolute joke and clearly just meant to be New Game +.
At least this game actually is an RPG unlike Dark Souls, and it's not the stats that make it so. It's the story driven decision making.
>bla bla bla something something I don't like thing
>something something duck souce
People do level 10 Bitterblack Isle runs all the time, that place is abundant with throwblasts, Just gotta get crafty yo.
>The game's Hard Mode could've fixed this, but it's an absolute joke and clearly just meant to be New Game +
I'm playing Dragons Dogma for the first time in a few years and I'm doing a regular newgame in Hard difficulty, and it's actually pretty fun.
>Try going to Bitterblack Isle early game and you'll see its simply not a matter of "getting good"
This is the absolute extreme though, Bitterblack Isle is supposed to be bullshit. The enemies there abuse buffs and defenses are you are expected to as well.
>The vanilla game will also pretty much never put you in a situation were you need to actually play skillfully, you're either the right level or you're not.
It's called hard mode. Even the goblins outside Cassardis can one shot you if you don't know how to play defensively and if the only reason you ever managed to beat normal mode was because you relied on being overlevelled you are going to get your ass handed to you. Even on normal there's a bit of a nasty hump after reaching Gran Soren when the game is going to send you to places like Bloodwater Beach where, unless you grinded out levels early on because you are a faggot that relies on being overlevelled, you are probably going to find stat based brute force is not going to get your through.
>It's called hard mode. Even the goblins outside Cassardis can one shot you if you don't know how to play defensively.
Hard Mode is only actually hard in the beginning, you'll quickly get a shitton of XP and the game is a cakewalk again.
This. Giving more xp and money is the best part about hard mode.
It's at it's hardest when you first start, then it gets easier as the levelling bonuses outpace the enemy levels, then it gets harder again as you get to the new difficulty humps and it stays fairly challenging for the most part from then on because equipment stats are supposed to mean more than character stats by that stage and they don't get the same bonus. For most of a hard mode play through you will be playing defensively.
>Dark Souls isn't an RPG
>implying that's a bad thing
I hear the magic system in this game is incredible, but I just started and I'm not seeing it. Is that actually true or just fanboys trying to sell something that isn't there?
Seeing as how all these casuals think they're hot shit for beating it, yeah, it's a bad thing. Because then you'll get faggots like OP trying to compare it to everything.
>not wanting stats to matter in an Action RPG
The fuck?
You have to become a Sorcerer, Mage is the most boring vocation in the game.
Both Dragons Dogma and Dark Souls are Real Time Action RPG's with a heavy focus on Combat with gear and stats. They are comparable.
You're just an idiot with a kneejerk reaction who thinks anybody that mentions Dark Souls are saying every game should be like that.
>I'm bad at the game and need to grind to win combat against npcs in an action game
Holy shit what?
The combat system sucks to be honest.
People like to suck off DD as a second coming of RPG's (me included) but that's honestly only because the game had so much POTENTIAL.
If DD2 becomes a thing i would like it to not have Mass Effect tier skill progression.
It looks pretty but personally I didn't think it was that fun to actually play with either. It's mostly just standing at the back like a sitting duck hoping nothing interrupts you.
Actually, people complaining want both Action and RPG to matter in DD, not just the RPG part.
What's it like being so new that you have to type out stale memes unknowingly?
Are you 15?
Dragons Dogma is much more fun than Dark Souls, though
>Games have nothing to do with each other besides having action influences no, Dark Souls is not an RPG
>Heavy focus on combat
Using that same dumbass logic, we can compare Bayonetta and Dragons Dogma too, no? Hell, Grand Theft Auto and Dragons Dogma both are open world, so why don't we compare them? Some iterations of Pong use a controller, so why don't we compare the two?
Two games sharing one or two particular traits does not make them comparable.
...
>offering an incentive to find or buy better gear
>offering an incentive to level up
>offering an incentive to explot enemy weaknesses
If you could kill everything with ease early on, what's the point?
I fucking hate Capcom.
Can we please burn their office down and kill all the upper management staff?
The system I'd never tout as incredibly, it just fucking looks cool and has some pretty clever gimmicks related to elements.
The only important numbers in dark souls are attack rating, health, stamina, stability (if using a shield), attunement/FP (if casting) and poise (only really big in 1)
The nice thing about the game is that the starting amounts of health and stamina are enough to beat the game in its entirety. Elemental infusions (and raw in 3) let you get high enough AR to kill everything even if you never level up
You're lying to yourself if you think there isn't an ocean of difference in the importance and accessibility of raw numerical advantage of equipment and stats in dks vs DD. Doing an SL1 run using pyromancy is barely harder than doing a regular run, the only difference is you have to manage stamina more carefully and the ring of favor is even more attractive.
A level one naked character in dark souls can punch every boss to death with their bare hands, it takes quite a while but it's nothing like the scaling in DD. That makes it more of an action game with RPG elements than a pure RPG but that's hardly a bad thing.
Dogma's combat system would be even more fun if it wasn't tied so heavily to gear and numbers. It's the single player equivalent of the welcome bear in MMOs
>what's the point
having fun and getting good, just like souls/bloodborne.
Would much prefer if the game was less about getting +stats to get stronger and more about expanding your combat options (Dragon's Dogma Online lets all classes have 8 custom skills equipped for fuck's sake and it's a warframe-tier grindfest).
Instead of a level 20 character being the same as a 200 character but with less numbers I'd prefer something like if 50 was the max level and the rest of your 'progression' was attaining new attacks/attack slots/maneuvers/augments/whatever.
So basically you think progression is bad. That unless you can beat a game at lv1 with starter gear it's bad.
Brilliant.
>Using that same dumbass logic, we can compare Bayonetta and Dragons Dogma too, no?
Sure, you could say both Bayonetta and Dragons Dogma has some similar mechanics such as pause combos. Which sets the combat apart from Dark Souls.
I just compared Dragons Dogma to Bayonetta and Dark Souls your faggot ass can do nothing to stop me. You can draw comparisons with anything no matter how dumb you think it is.
horizontal progression is almost always better than extreme vertical progression, especially when it comes to action combat games.
>stats
>mattering at all until BBI
That's not what he said at all you hyperbolic fucking dumbass.
I've seen people saying this for a long time now. They are just forced to deal with a circlejerk of extremely dedicated fans spamming IT DOESN'T MATTER in face of any criticism.
>having fun and getting good, just like souls/bloodborne.
Fun is subjective.
In the souls games and bloodborne gear barely matters, so it's basically just cosmetic or to increase your dps a bit. Combat is also extremely simplistic and most encounters boil down to the exact same thing, using the exact same tactics.
The only good part of the combat in the souls games is the sense of danger (you and the enemy can die fairly easily), but that's it. Mechanically they're borderline shit.
Also the sense of character progression is terrible. By the end of Bloodborne I felt no different from when I started. I played the game in basically the same way all the way through.
>every game should ONLY be circling around your enemy's back and attacking 3 times before rolling away, just like Dark Souls
I don't understand. You talk about how Dark Souls is good because you get enough to beat the game as long as you rely on gear and then criticize DD because it's tied heavily to gear.
>Doing an SL1 run using pyromancy is barely harder than doing a regular run
This is only true if you level up the pyromancy flame and even then you are only going to squeeze by if you run past every enemy and only attack bosses because otherwise you will just run out of attacks. To say that this is what makes Dark Souls a good game is just stupid. The fact that enemies are so fucking inconsequential and you can just run past them is a flaw with the game, not something to praise.
I mean, this is seriously mind-boggling to me. There are people who actually praise the bad aspects of the Souls games as if they are the best parts of it.
>im glad that people finally got over the flashy animations and are starting to call the game out on this
When will Sup Forums start waking up to all the problems the soulsborne games have? So far they're still in dreamland.
>strawmanning so hard you start looking like a drooling retard
Impressive
not an argument
I hate how the damage/defense system works: Defense is just a flat reduction
You go too quickly from dealing next to no damage to an enemy to flat out instakilling them
I have bought this game four fucking times. Once for the initial release, once for Dark Arisen, once for a friend and then another for the PC release.
I will be buying it a fifth time for the PS4/Xbone release.
I would like a sequel or DDO ported to the west, but I honestly don't see that happening. I will keep buying this game.
Progression is fine. Dark Souls has plenty of character progression and a max level character is obviously much stronger in every way than a level 1 character.
The appeal comes from the fact that once you've improved as a player, you don't need a tricked out character to beat the game. This is the "git gud" that's been memed to death since prepare to die edition came out. People do this with every game, it's not like it's restricted to just action RPGs.
Games like Thief or Dishonored have entire communities built around intentionally ignoring all the lethal options in order to do ghost playthroughs where not only are they entirely pacifist, they're never even seen by enemies. People try to beat isometric RPGs without using any party members, do melee only builds in shooters, etc.
There's a common arc in mastering a lot of games where you start off not knowing what you're doing, find out what's strongest and maximize that, then once you're good enough just run around using whatever you think is coolest or most fun. It's the difference between some tryhard with the drake sword and hollow soldier waistcloth, and someone in full Catarina set dancing around with the channeler's trident. Chances are the guy running around doing stupid silly shit is the better player because he's gotten to the point he can afford to.
Even after you've "gotten gud" at dragon's dogma, you're still reliant on gear to an annoying degree. More player choice and variety is hardly a bad thing.
Mandatory character progression is just content gating
Maybe RPGs are just not for you, then
DD is not "extreme vertical" in any conceivable way though. As i already shared my experience, i wasn't minmaxing in the slightest and went full fashion>stats all the way through.
It's not early jrpg\early wizardry by even most wild and ridiculous stretch.
>Play DD
>love it
>turns out that there are no other games providing similar experience
Its not fair, I say. NOT FAIR!
In dark souls you can infuse almost any weapon and use it for the entire game, you can also only just run past everything once you know the zone and its layout well enough to get through. Having to kill every enemy every time you went through would be miserable, I don't know anyone that fights every random enemy in any game.
2 attunement slots is plenty to kill every enemy and reach the boss gate and nearest bonfire, at which point you should be resting and running to the fog. Who kills enemies when doing a boss run, besides capra demon and smelter demon in 2 I can't think of many off the top of my head where enemies are unavoidable
For anyone interested in what Warrior could've been with some tweaks
youtube.com
As for the long kill time that boss is meant to be fought with a party of 4. As you can see Warrior now has a bunch of tools to absorb/hyper armour straight through damage if they play correctly.
>The appeal comes from the fact that once you've improved as a player
Let's be honest here, the Souls games are incredibly generous with things like utterly retarded enemy AI, i-frames, etc. You aren't so much as "gitting gud" as you are just noticing the horrendous flaws in the system and exploiting them. When you play the Souls games "as they are meant to be played" then they are good fun and a decent challenge, when you cheese it, which is incredibly easy to do given all the issues, they are 99% a cakewalk.
there's one other game
Game would geniunely been more fun as an Action Adventure game with light RPG elements.
Could have cut stat growth/boosting almost completely and just focused on balancing the combat to make it more engaging. Vocation leveling to buy new skills could stay, since it wouldn't fuck with the balance too much; have equipment come with very small stat boosts to please Better Gear "dopamine releases" People.
Do the same thing with Witcher 3 while we're at it.
I do enjoy Dark Souls where there are RPG elements, but it's not say Nioh where you go from doing 100 damage to 100k. I don't think Dragon's Dogma's stats really get crazy like that, but I will say that its implementation of defense is particularly annoying. In that, if your offense doesn't outright beat the enemy's defense, you basically just deal no damage. You either fight it for eternity to chip it to death 1 damage at a time, or get a bigger number to throw at their number. Which is where a lot of the complaints come from, I'd imagine.
>just a boring hit trading
yawn
aside from yellow classes, dd's combat mechanics are just a putrid shit
Knowing Asians, it probably comes with rootkit. And I would still need to get around langauge and regional lock.
That sounds rad tho. climbing on giant dragons with 39 other people
Seeker is even crazier than Strider
>have to buy dodge roll
O-okay...
>Mandatory character progression is just content gating
This is the problem right here, you think that needing a specific thing is a negative. That it doesn't matter what armor you have, what weapon you have, what tactic you employ, etc.
You most likely think that total freedom is a positive as well, which is a common misconception.
The problem is that you think that Dark Souls is a collection of great game design, when in fact most of it is flawed or down-right bad.
You see in say the Dark Souls games bosses or enemies can typically just be killed either by backstabbing them or mashing the attack button until their HP bars reaches 0. In Dragon's Dogma however there are for example enemies like the golems that require you to attack specific key points on their bodies, you can't employ the same tactic that you've used against every other enemy. This is a restriction that makes it more interesting. Restrictions makes choices more meaningful.
In say Bloodborne gear basically does not matter at all to the point where they might as well not even have it. To you this is a positive freedom because you're not "forced" to adapt, but all it does is make the game more boring because in the end it doesn't matter.
In fact DD is far more of an RPG than Dark Souls and Bloodborne are. You instead want something more akin to a hack n slash.
No, I love RPGs. I'm allowed to enjoy games like morrowind, mass effect, dragon age, deus ex, baldurs gate, nwn, etc. while still being able to recognize that dragons dogma has faults that don't make it as fun as it could be.
Having linear progression of weapons like am MMO is not needed in a single player video game. It doesn't feel fun to have a sword do ten damage, have trouble with an enemy, then get a sword that does a hundred damage and have the fight be trivialized. I'd rather have two swords that do different things that are good in different conditions
Inability to accept criticism of a flawed but fun game doesn't do you any good. You don't have to imply I'm somehow unable to enjoy an entire genre just because you're such a massive faggot you can't handle a different opinion
You clearly have no idea what the role of equipment in RPGs is, let alone what an RPG even is.
This is the industry today, Fallout 1/2 compared to 3/4. Two of those are RPGs, the other two are FPS. I can guarantee you don't know the difference.
>No, I love RPGs. I'm allowed to enjoy games like morrowind, mass effect, dragon age, deus ex, baldurs gate, nwn, etc. while still being able to recognize that dragons dogma has faults that don't make it as fun as it could be.
Several of those games "gatekeep" you as well.
>Make battles almost completely dependent on stats
False. The speed and ease of battles depend on gear, skills, weakness exploitation, positioning and consumables.
Stats without appropriate skills make you a retard in certain scenarios. Additionally, you can't just waltz through enemies with one skill, because some areas will just have enemies that are strong to it.
Enemy weakpoints and weaknesses exist. Not exploiting them is asking the game to make fights longer.
Positioning is key, especially for mages. What's that, you suddenly have 4 Garms on your ass at the Forgotten Hall and can't cast anything because they just leap and drag you? Stand atop that fucking lion statue or platform and spam your magic in relative safety.
Consumables have been pointed out by countless anons to be helpful in this game. Throwblasts, Periapts, etc. become necessary in harder areas, especially when your character is at a low level. Not making the most out of them worsens your experience.
Dark Souls has a lot more weapon, magic and gear choices but doesn't offer a lot outside that. The combat is the same attack/dodge/parry/riposte memery. You can't even grab a parried opponent and drop them off a cliff. You can't grab onto the fucking Bed of Chaos' appendages as it swings by or hang onto the Ancient Dragon's body. Regular jumps looked dumber when more weapon skills became available on DS3 that contained exaggerated jump animations. There's hardly any balance at all.
It's funny how you try and claim others are close-minded when you're the one living in a bubble.
They are parries. You have a move called brace that puts you in a defensive stance for a brief moment and reduces damage. You also have an upgraded form of Exodus Slash from the original game which is what he does throughout the fight to parry the attack. Probably new skills too since I played DDO. Looks like you can directly opt to go into a charged slash from a brace which is nice.
>Dark Souls is hardly perfect in this regard but
But nothing. Stats don't matter at all in Dark Souls.
>In fact DD is far more of an RPG than Dark Souls and Bloodborne are
This is where the disagreement stems from I think. Personally I (and the others replying to you) find DD to be an action game where the RPG elements hinder it. Whereas you see it as a RPG functioning as they generally tend to.
>having to actually play the game would be miserable
sounds like a bad game
This mentality that "Well that's just how RPG's are" is really a mentality that needs to fucking die.
Genres exist for a reason, it's blueprints that work, but you should NEVER be a slave to the blueprints. Especially when you're mixing genres like DD is. Dragon's Dogma, Nioh and the Witcher 3 are all games with fullblown real time combat, but since they're selling themselves as ARPG's they carry this baggage that the game simply needs to have a noticable vertical progression system, which completely clashes with the skill-based horizontal progression.
>He doesn't know about rusted weapons
LMAO
>But nothing. Stats don't matter at all in Dark Souls
That's just completely untrue because certain builds and weapons just completely crushes the game.
Stats actually matter in DD, unlike in Soulsborne
This is becauseyou try and play it as an action game and in your mind this is an action game. But it's very much an RPG like say Baldurs Gate.
There's far more roleplaying in DD than in Dark Souls and not just in character building and combat. You claiming that it would've been better to remove or severely tone down the RPG aspects would basically mean to remove over half the game.
Bloodborne on the other hand is basically an action game where the RPG aspects make very little sense. Bloodborne has even fewer strategies avaliable to you than in Dark Souls. Bloodborne boils down to dodging, R1 spam and maybe some "parrying" with the gun. This is how you beat every single enemy in the game. This isn't even me dumbing things down, this is because your options are extremely limited (no blocking, ranged isn't good, magic is nonexistant, etc).
This makes for a far more shallow and bland experience. What made Bloodborne good was absolutely not the combat mechanics or RPG aspects, those are in fact the weakest parts of the game.
Gear progression is fun and gives you something to work toward, absolute freedom in a videogame is not a good thing.
Making something easy even easier means very little. You don't need to employ specific tactics or weapons, this is why most people just pick 1 weapon like Ludwig's and stick to it all game through.
>combat is the weakest part of bloodborne
I think you would be in an extremely small minority with that opinion.
Your personal opinion on the difficulty is irrelevant. Stats and gear objectively does affect the games difficulty.
Do you think level scaling in Fallout 3 and similar games is a good thing? Most likely not.
However you and that other guy thinks that you should be able to run around naked with a club and beat anything you come across with "skill" otherwise it's a bad game.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with restrictions in game. In fact some of the best designed games use a ton of well implemented restrictions.
>Gear progression is fun and gives you something to work toward
You can have that without being ridicously dependant on it.
Fortunately, DD is not ridiculously dependant on gear.
>it's very much an RPG like say Baldurs Gate.
Another user here, let's cut the bullshit, game *has* RPG elements to it, but the meat of the game remains the combat, and it is at its core an action game.
The saddest thing for me is how there's such an interesting core to the games but mechanics keep going at cross purpose. Like, say, the stamina/food mechanic being made completely irrelevant by leveling-up refilling your stamina. It's sad how you *can* beat enemies that are way over your level, but it doesn't take much skill, just some huge HP sponge you have to suffer for way too long.
Basically, I think there's a really good game in there, but it needs to make a choice, and I think getting rid of stat progression for combat, while tracking more stats for social stuff and other interaction would be the way to go.
To each their own I guess.
>However you and that other guy thinks that you should be able to run around naked with a club and beat anything you come across with "skill" otherwise it's a bad game.
In an ARPG yes absolutely, otherwise the point of an in-depth combat system is moot. You're throwing pearls to swine.
>just roll, parry and mash the attack button
it's incredibly simple and shallow
>I think you would be in an extremely small minority with that opinion.
Are you telling me that the combat system in Bloodborne is deep? There aren't even any combos, nor does it punish you for spamming R1 until your stamina runs out.
Nioh proved just how bad the combat in Dark Souls and Bloodborne actually is.