Adding accessibility without removing depth

youtube.com/watch?v=-sUVNqNSo5M
How would you make fighting games more accessible without removing depth, Sup Forums?

Here's my idea:
add the input leniency of sfv
>large input buffer window for comboing
>retarded input shortcuts like df, df + P = dp
>etc
however...
>you get an x% damage bonus if you get a "perfect hit" (that is, by connecting an input as late as possible during a combo)
>also get the bonus for doing the "correct" special move input (i.e: f, d, df + P = dp)
>bonus hitstun after y number of perfect hits in a combo, rewarding player with the possibility of extending his combo once
>a perfect hit would be represented by a hit spark of a different color (like pic related) and a different sound effect

I dare you to find anything wrong with this. Hell, you could even add optional 1 button specials and this scheme would still work

Other urls found in this thread:

shoryuken.com/2012/07/16/lost-strategy-series-the-role-of-execution-by-james-chen/
fig.co/campaigns/fantasy-strike
kotaku.com.au/2017/05/fantasy-strike-is-bringing-simplicity-to-fighting-esports/
twitter.com/SFWRedditVideos

Combo tutorials and more single player content. In most fighting games there's only an arcade mode and a """"training mode"""" and that's as far as it goes in the single player dept and then off you go to get your ass kicked in online.

After watching that video I'm mostly interested in how that blind guy can play Street Fighter. Good for him.

Can't be done, casuals will never play fighting games because fighting games aren't fun

his voice is aggravating

That's the whole point, though. You literally can't learn anything about fighting games beyond that because it's familiarity, mind games, and strategy. Like anything competitive you're going to get your ass kicked constantly before you get good. You throw a CoD noob into a match with a veteran, he's going to get his ass kicked.

What they need is better multiplayer matchmaking in general.

Every example in that video removed a massive amount of depth for the sake of "accessibility"

Your idea is also fucking retarded.

Here's a better idea, do the correct fucking input, get the move.

Anyone who isn't going to put the time into a game to do basic motions isn't going to stick around to learn how to play the game correctly.

Most people just don't want that though. Getting your shit kicked in constantly is not fun. Competitive gamers are a minority hence why I suggest more single player content so that devs can still have depth in their games but also give reasons for casual players to pick the game up even after tge online community dies.

>single player content
Kill yourself

Nah, before you can enter strategy and mind games one should be familiar with the controls of the game, master technical stuff like movement and get accustomed to being able to dash, back dash, get comfortable with inputs, understand unique game mechanis and land the stuff they want without whiffing first.

A proper single player mode designed around teaching those would breach the gap between shitters and "actually knows what's up"

It's not accessibility problem.
It's just that they are mediocre games full of DLC and shit.

Dashing is an interesting example. Yes, it's important to know how to dash, and it's not hard. Just double tap, and there are games with extensive tutorials on it. People generally know how to dash, and to dash well.

The issue is WHEN to dash. Dashing is nice but leaves you vulnerable. In SFV, you can even risk CC. Airdashes are a whole new layer on top of that. It's a maneuver that you just have to get used to, you can't really have a tutorial that covers in depth Okizeme and says "Dash in on wakeup to apply meaty pressure" or "Dash back versus grapplers to avoid command grabs." These are things you pick up from experience or extensive study, and has more to do with mindset rather than basic skill.

No, either you can pull off a move or you can't, diluting the game to suit everyone's needs only worsens it. people should want to try and get better instead of getting handouts for everything, getting handouts will only make them lazy.

It's like a job user, either you can do the job and keep it or you don't and you get fired.

Not an argument

Kill yourself

Not an argument

>What they need is better multiplayer matchmaking in general.
nope. casuals, even the ones interested in competition, put restrictions on how to play. other people play outside of their narrow view of the game, and theyll get turned off.

no zoning, no mashing, no spamming, no touch of deaths, no poking, no running away, no grabbing. bad players have a way they like to play games, and cant blame themsleves if theyre losing.

Kill yourself

Pokken does it right, IMO.

In terms of core mechanics and fundamentals, it's the same as any other fighting game, in most regards, and the ways it does differ actually add depth, such as it's attack height system being offensive and defensive, IE a attack has a defensive height that allows it to go over or under other moves; and the phase shift system adding phase points as a considerition to bnb and combo choice.

Move inputs are all just single button plus a direction at most, and most combos are relatively short, but there's a ton of tech, optimal combos are a fair bit longer without being marvel/anime tier, and the exceutional gap in terms of spacing and timing is still strict on said optimal combos.

The problem is that people want to be able to jump right in without fucking around in training mode. Devs should implement features that help players learn while they play. Like a visual that shows you what the correct input for the last move you did was, or timing guides for linking moves or performing wake-up reversals, or hint boxes before and after matches that explain what tools your character has or what sort of mistake you made during your match.

Not an argument

problems is people want to be DAIGO in a month.
this shit takes years

This no one will tough it out unless they really want to get good.

Why do so many fighting game purists think that if a fighting game doesn't have complex, hand obliterating inputs it's shit? If Tekken, SF, GG, or anything else had all the same moves but they were easy as piss to do the game would not be any less deep at all. All the mechanics would be exactly the same, but more people would be able to use them. And to anyone who says it would make the skill gap smaller yeah it would, but not as much as you all like to say. Take a look at Smash (Not saying smash is a fighting game just using it as an example) all the moves in the game are one button and a direction. That's it. A retard can play the game and feel like a god but an actually good player can use the same moves to make minced meat of the casual. Why can't fighting games be that way too?

kill yourself

This is what casuals actually beleive

>Nigger holding white woman
Didn't even bother watching the video, lmao.

Most attacks in Tekken are one button and a direction. Most of its hand breaking inputs are from maximizing your movement potential.

Why do they need to be made more accessible in the first place?

Can we not even in our wildest dreams imagine for a single second that the problem lies with people wanting everything to just bend the knee before them?
Put some more effort into it.

>But it's just a videogame.
No, it's not that easy to simplify it. People spend months on perfecting their skills in fighting games. Why? Why would they do such a crazy thing? Could it be that there's truly something special about high level fighting games?
So basically, you want what they have without having to put the work into it. Fine. You can have that in another game. But it's never going to feel like THAT.

absolutely atrocious idea

The issue is that there are only so many buttons and combinations of buttons on a gamepad, so inputs necessarily have to get somewhat complex.

Stuff like the old Raging Storm in Fatal Fury/KoF, though, those WERE deliberately bullshit inputs, and they've changed them since. Still "complex" in terms of number of inputs, but not finger-tying pretzel bullshit, either.

Ultimately, it's something you've got to devote time to in order to get. While it's entirely possible to dabble in fighting games, to actually play well against others, even in the simplest fighting game imaginable (for instance, DiveKick), it takes time and practice.

>doesn't have complex, hand obliterating inputs
let me give you a stupid comparison for this

>child goes to parent and asks
>dad, why is driving a car so difficult? Why do I have to handle 3 pedals and 6 gears simultaneously? It's way too hard
>Well then let's make fully automated self-driving cars
>Hey great I can drive a car! But it's so boring!
see what I'm getting at?

this, there's already plenty of information out there both in game and online relating to how to play a fighting game, most people who complain about stuff like this just want to win without working for it. fighting games are supposed to be hard. like, really hard.

That video seems to go against the other one on dumbing down SFV

A feel like a lot of the FGC is way too scared to actually rip into these purposefully easy games, when really none are getting anyone into fighting games anyway. FS has a lot of flaws, some like only 3 normals are a result of the control scheme and how easy it is to accidentally yomi counter when throws also have super far range.

If an easier game does get people into fighting games this or RT aren't going to be the ones to do it.

>fighting games are supposed to be hard. like, really hard.
yeah but you see, people just don't get this one little thing at all:
they're hard, but it's WORTH it

Fighting games were never meant to be accessible.

Trying to make them more accessible just kills them in the end because you won't gain many new players and you start to alienate the original fanbase.

>Combo tutorials and more single player content.
Then why are KI and GG dead while SFV and Tekken the biggest games right now?

Casuals hate tutorials and having to learn strategy.

GG is "dead" because it's anime and that will never ever appeal to a wide audience.

KI is probably dead just due to how much more popular the NRS games ended up being.

Not an argument

Awful metaphor

>How do I shift into reverse?
>Do a double quarter circle back strong punch with the gear stick

The controls are still there, they're just easier to use

>let's make things easy for people who don't want to put in the actual work!!!
>let's just give out these diplomas for these technical courses to people who just attended the class!!!
Nowhere in the real world can you become good at something with depth without putting in the time to learn and practice it. These attempts to dumb-down *cough* I mean, make games "accessible" is so anti-thetical to the human condition that in the end, it only hurts a game more than it improves it.

The problem is people have this idea that if there weren't combos they would be good.

I think a lot of casuals assume they are so high IQ that if it weren't for those pesky motion their superior intellect would destroy everyone. They have this idea that it is all incredibly complex decisions done in seconds, when really it is just pattern recognition knowing the way to bait and punish it.

When really complex combos actually help them. In Fantasy strike that not-millia will fuck up anyone who doesn't know her well cause her shit is super easy but powerful. But when learning SF4 no one at low level would do hard E.Ryu shit on you cause they can't.

Op you are describing Tekken

See, you're approaching it from the wrong perspective
you already know how to drive, so it's a no-brainer for you to shift into reverse

try explaining that to your 8 year old though
the players trying to get into fighting games, they are 8 years old, metaphorically speaking

Kill yourself

I think I could explain to an 8 year old that pointing the stick towards R means reverse

Not an argument

Honestly the best way to get casuals on board is to throw out the rules of how the game is played. Guilty Gear has depth because it puts a ton of time and effort into twisting the rules of the already established Street Fighter formula. Fighting game concepts and mechanics are two different things. Things like spacing, mix ups, reads, and conditioning are universal and can be found in every fighting game. Smash and Street Fighter are mechanically different, but are conceptually similar. I think fantasy strike has some good ideas and succeeds in its efforts to make execution easier, but it won't solve the problem of things people already hate in 2D fighters. It already looks like the meta will revolve around mix up vortex characters that can keep themselves in an advantageous state off of one hit. Big money on someone like Sonicfox dominating any sort of scene it develops. I think ARMS did a great job of reproducing the concepts in a completely fresh way, but if we somehow live in a world where it gets sequels I guarantee that people will be complaining that it's too difficult to get into by the third game.

>Genre defined by the amount of hard work and practice it takes to get good
>Dumb down every modern fighting game so that anyone could be a top player
>Wonder why the genre is on the decline

There was a mortal Kombat game back on the Xbox that had an open world story mode which taught you how to combo properly and shit as quests, more games should do that

The FGC is founded on elitism. Anything which tries to reduces complexity and bring new players into the genre is seen as bad because people believe that deliberate complexity is needed to keep out people who won't play seriously.

What ends up happening is that people pick up a fighting game, find out that it takes weeks/months of study and practice to get to a level where they can even control their chosen character properly, let alone compete with others, and drop the game. They rightfully assess the investment as a waste of time when there are games which are just as fun and competitive but with rules that aren't so retarded.

Even if the added complexity does translate to more depth, it effectively blocks new players from the genre which is something that companies now realize they want to avoid since they depend on new players to sell games. Even if you have a player who is interested in the genre, there's no good place for them to start that doesn't immediately toss them in the deep end of bullshit fighting game jargon and so they're more likely to just give up rather than try to master simple games and then progress onto more complicated ones.

kill yourself

If you make a game in a completely different way then nobody will consider it a fighter at all, look at smash

>there are people that actually find fighting game inputs difficult
Like it literally shows you the motion. How can you not understand how to execute it? If you're having difficulty it means you're doing something wrong and need to spend time practicing. What's there to streamline? There aren't even enough buttons to streamline things further.

t. casual

this, knowing combos doesn't help you have good block strings or avoid resets or mixups or even have any decent neutral at all
if anything, you'd just be more eager to jump in

that's telling him "do a fireball, it's the P button"
but the input is actually
>kick the clutch
>move gear right down/right up depending on car
>slowly release clutch
>slowly kick the gas in the correct timeframe
it's really not that bad of a metaphor

but that's what you're trying to explain to new fighting game players
there's just nothing you can do, they need to suck it up and keep practicing until they can do it, just like anyone would driving a car for the first time

They do have that. Its called going to locals and putting in time with the game. People expect to learn the game via online play which is the worse thing in the world.

Easy. We go back to the days of Karate.

You get a roster of different looking characters but they all start in a white Gi with white belts.

Every character has the same move set. No specials.

The game play revolves on which player can out fight the other with the same move sets. Accurate hit boxes, accurate blocks and dodges.

As you get better you start unlocking cosmetics and as you rank up you get different belt colors to distinguish the level of the fighter.

But even a white belt should be able to defeat a black belt with the proper knowledge of counters.

Fighting games as they are today make it so some characters have easier special executions or how some characters out perform every other toon on the roster.

>had all the same moves but they were easy as piss to do the game would not be any less deep at all
A flash kick or sonic boom requires charge, to do this it mean you can no longer move forward but are rewarded with a powerful move. This means it is allowed to be powerful

>but in the video the gear guy
Yes, the problem with that is you are given less choice. Charge partitioning allows you to store a charge quicker, this can result in combos that don't seem possible but are. Even in games that lack it players knowing when they can start charging and when it ends allows a divide in players and something to improve at so knowledge of the game is rewarded.

Certain moves need to be hampered in some way but it is best to do it while still giving the player more control and not just timers.

shoryuken.com/2012/07/16/lost-strategy-series-the-role-of-execution-by-james-chen/

Online play is good enough if you do it right. See Fightcade. It will never be quite as good as offline play but it's not so poor that it would form bad habits.

Focus on local play just isn't as viable as it used to be. Arcades have died out and you're fucked if you try to play something competitively but don't live near a major city.

RISING THUNDER HAD IT PERFECT

P E R F E C T

EASY 1 BUTTON SPECIALS FOR THE BABBIES
DEEP ENOUGH COMBO SYSTEM AND NEUTRAL FOR THE PEOPLE THAT KNEW WHAT THEY WERE DOING

FUCK RIOT

you know that's actually not a bad idea I think
>have them only fight with heavy normals first
>add medium normals
>add light normals
>add one special
>add the other special
>add supers

Not an argument

kill yourself

lmao, no man
the kinda guys who played RT quickly realized that making inputs easier doesn't make better opponents go easier on you

Do they actually think anyone will pick up these baby game? Just look at the fig campaign
fig.co/campaigns/fantasy-strike

If someone is mad about combos it is because they fuck up and feel like shit, telling them to go to weenie hut jr won't help that. They want to play the game all the pros do and be able to do the complex shit they can but lack the dedication.

Enough people recognize its similarities to be at EVO. You can't suddenly make Street Fighter exciting and new again. We aren't in the nineties anymore. Fighting games are no longer a fad, you can only stimulate growth by making solid games that also appeal to the average consumer.

Rising thunder was fucking shit tho and 1 button specials are pure cancer

>They want to play the game all the pros do and be able to do the complex shit they can but lack the dedication.
Then maybe that's just something they won't get.

I want to be rich as fuck and have expensive cars like the rich people do man. But I don't wanna work for it.

Mortal Kombat is more popular than both Tekken and SFV in the casual crowd, thanks in due to its story mode.

GG is a niche anime game and KI is a literally who MK-wannabe.

Thank God for David Sirlin!

"Skeptics at these shows (and there were only like 2 or 3 at each) would say “isn’t there just nothing to this?” Then we offer to crush them really hard, either with me playing them or one of my staff. In all cases, we crush them easily, as in more than 10-0. You might think people get salty from that, but the skeptics were all very excited. It’s exactly what they wanted to see, that there is a level of play far above what they were aware of.

Our highest praise, in my opinion, came from such a person who, after getting crushed really badly, trained at our booth for hours and hours. Then he challenged me again, and I crushed him yet again (slightly less badly, he at least won a few rounds, but not games). Then he said the first time he faced me, he lost a lot of times because he was unaware of this move or that, of this property of a move, or something. But the second time, he said he had full knowledge of all that stuff, and “he was simply outplayed.” That’s exactly what he hoped for: that a higher level of play was possible, so there’s a skill to it."

kotaku.com.au/2017/05/fantasy-strike-is-bringing-simplicity-to-fighting-esports/

I hope Dragonball Fighters Z is going to get some more people involved just for Dragonball, and then they stick for the fighting.

Really looking forward to it.

I'm optimistic but not getting my hopes up. ASW haven't become gods just because Capcom have shit the bed. Their games have had issues in the past too.

The special inputs isn't why bad players lose

RT never got to get its foot in the door because once you remove inputs people still got fucked by everything else

Fantasy Strike had to simplify their shit even further to at least try to fix this shit but it's not going to, because execution isn't why people lose

Not an argument

I'm not a fan of the Z for shoryuken. It should either be in the down-right position pointing in that direction or pointing back up toward the right. A stick doesn't make that square shape naturally its more in the corner.

kill yourself

These games are all copying the wrong thing, SC2 does it right. The game doesn't feel like it lacks options but it is easier to play. Combos are short and mostly easy to learn but emphasis is put on other aspects. If anything you could have slight;y more combo complexity and still be very casual. Plus it has robust single player to get people in the door.

Fantasy Strike feels like it dumbs down the genre, Soul Calibur was a side step

there would be an unbelievable amount of broken option selects if Street Fighter or any other franchise didnt have command inputs.

SC2 is shit though

>Reaching this far to justify your shittiness
If people fucking suck thats their business. SFV is accesible as fuck and people still shit on it for being braindead yet casuals still complain that motions are asinine and hard. Truth is both sides should shut the fuck up and let people that actually play/want to get better do it in peace.

Not an argument

Kill yourself

Not an argument

kill yourself

Pokemon is an even bigger IP then dragon ball yet once general nintendo fans and smash people realized Pokken was an actual fighting game most of them bailed.

I expect the same to happen with DBFZ, but DBFZ has the advantage in that the FGC is already sold on it and will support it, wheras Pokken didn't have the FGC support either on top of a lack of casual support, hence it's small scene. (though it's not as small as people think)

I think the same issues will happen again where it will have a lot of activity at first, but people that put much more time into it will pull ahead. Even with accessible inputs, there are still other aspects that lesser skilled players will have a tough time overcoming such as mind games and such. Also with the franchise being DBZ, there's a chance that people may complain that it isn't like the Tenkaichi games where you can mash in a fast moving battle or clash of beam attacks.
I don't mean to sound pessimistic though. I do look forward to seeing what comes from it.

Pokkenfag, how many times do you have to be told that no one liked your game and that is why it died?

>Pokken didn't have the FGC support
No it had many top players give it a try, they didn't like it and left.

Here is why DBFZ will do well, people like it

If you take something that's been complicated for decades and then simplify it of course the existing (or remaining) players are going to complain about it being dumbed down. It doesn't actually matter if the changes actually make it any easier to start playing, ANY simplification is seen as heresy. 1 frame links become 2 frame links? Fucking casuals!

>Lousy casuals just want a game where they can instantly compete at a top level!
No, they want a game that doesn't take weeks or months of practice to get to the fun part, where you can actually make informed gameplay decisions and do anything except get your ass handed to you. It only takes hours at best to understand the rules of basketball or chess and start playing properly, but you still need years of practice before you have any hope of beating an NBA player or chess grandmaster.
>Casuals just lack dedication, it's SUPPOSED to be miserable for ages while you git gud!
People play games to have fun and if it's not fun then they stop playing. If that triggers you then fine, but it shouldn't be that hard to understand why companies are losing faith in games with high barriers to entry.

kill yourself

nigger what are you even talking about, go take your tripfag drama somewhere else

The game already has a massive 3 frame buffer

Also lmao at hitting a combo as late as possible, wtf, are you retarded

Sfv was already made for a mongoloid like you

You make the same argument every thread, isn't hard to tell

Never stopped SF4 from being very popular

>there's a chance that people may complain that it isn't like the Tenkaichi games
It is a minority who think those games are any good, even of that I've seen channels dedicated to those games who are super into fighters already

Special moves are easy compared to the other stuff in the game like memorising and pulling off combo's, hitconfirming, knowing the different matchup and other stuff you learn with experience.
It's like complaining that learning Japanese is hard because you can't memorise the Kana.
What fighting games need to do is to make the player feel like getting stronger is worth their time instead of dumbing the games down. And they also need to make this process fun and entertaining.

Imput leniency but personalizable combos.
Stock Gauge System instead of rounds and heavy damaging moves but lenient and fast-recovering white health.
Cartoony art-style ala Overwatch/LoL instead of anime waifus and stereotypes.
Character customization, both aesthetic and in choice of ISMs, supers, etc ala Alpha/SFIII
Bots that learn the fighting style of the character's #1 ranked player so that people playing single player modes don't develop AI-exploiting bad habits.

Both casuals and "pros" will stay longer if they feel they can play the game the way they want to play it. The only people who adapt to a game with more don'ts than dos are autists like the Melee crowd.

KI isn't dead, it's as played as it's XBONE EXCLUSIVE status allows it to be.
GG is dead because westerners don't like weird anime fetishes in their games. The kind of people who play GG are the kind of people the rest of the FGC pro and casual alike used to bully in highschool.

>motions are a block to tactics and decision making
>letting go of the controls to tech grab
Also quit spamming this fucking copypasta you do this every thread faggot

Make combo timing less strict
Get rid of shoryuken and 360 inputs
Focus less on super long combos

We had that game, it was called MK: Argmageddon.

im a casual player and i play some fgs here and there honestly learning motions is honestly the most easiest thing in fighting games it takes a bit of practice but its not that hard and its really just combos that are kinda hard and take a but of time. a big problem for casuals getting into fighting games is shit single player,tutorials and all these fucking shitty business practices, also the fact that the modern consumer has the attention-span of a walnut and dont take the time to practice for even a day

tldr: if you cant do basic motions go back to smash or fucking some other casual game like overwatch also casuals are never going to want to play a casual fighting game on a marketing level this shits not getting off the ground