Accessibiilty in fighting games

What does Sup Forums think about accessibility in fighting games, and possibly, video games in general?

To get shit started:
youtube.com/watch?v=-sUVNqNSo5M

I think this is good.

Other urls found in this thread:

youtu.be/92s7Ne6Yxsw?t=101
twitter.com/SFWRedditVideos

it's bad in my opinion
it just means more retarded normies to me

Eh, retards exist either way. You just have to not play with them.

Accessibility is one of those words whose definition has been systematically blurred by both marketing, for casuals, and ideologues, for SJWs, to the point where it can mean pretty much anything and is therefore worthless. So perhaps you could be more specific. I'm not going to watch the video.

BASED SIRLOIN WILL SAVE THE FGC
CAPKEKS ON SUICIDE WATCH
FRAUDULENT SCRUBS WITH SHIT FUBDEMENTALS SUICIDE WATCH

I have a strong feeling very very very not intelligent things are going to be said in this thread

I'm one of those people who like playing fighting games with my casual friends who also suck, but don't want to put the effort to actually learn how to play.
I just think that every game has its own barrier to entry and some are higher than others.
There shouldn't be a standard to allow ALL players to possibly win. That's why we have other games with lower barriers like ssb.

>oh my god how dare you not waste time on this suck ass clickbait video that ultimately doesn't resolve any of the questions the title of it presents!

>asking Sup Forums, home of daily threads about not being able to do a dragon punch, what they think about dumbing down a fighting game so they can finally play it

i wish Sup Forums would go back to not giving a fuck about fighting games again
maybe a few more years where the fgc has become 100% toxic instead of just 90% toxic as it is today

>I can't do a dragon punch
>SURE-YOU-CAN!

why is this idiot trying to turn fighting games into bad strategy games? if you want to remove all mechanical skill just go and play another genre

You are going to hit a wall in any competitive game that you try to learn. The learning process is part of the game, and if you don't find it enjoyable then the game probably isn't for you.

Some attempts at simplifying mechanics are more minor and generally preferred by the community (removing FRC, letting players break normal throws with 1 or 2), but the issue is that a lot of companies seem to think accessibility equals dumbing everything way the fuck down. The decent solution is to just add good fucking tutorials like Xrd and UNIST have. UNIST even teaches you the BnBs top level players use in the trials and separates the sections by starter. Meanwhile, T7 has shit in the game that isn't listed fucking anywhere, like wall jumps and even throw breaks.

I've been seeing this video making the rounds the past week or so; though I haven't bothered watching it (since I'm not really a fan of Core-A's stuff), I'm honestly not sure how serious I'm going to take something that considers "special move notations" a wall. It's a block when you're starting out, sure, but it shouldn't take you more than a couple of hours to be completely used to numpad, Capcom, Tekken, or any notation. Not to mention that you're going to have to learn shit like that in any multiplayer game, competitive or casual: nobody starts the game and immediately knows what the fuck "long A" or "SoJ" is.

What genre are you going to play? fighting games wont come back until something like third strike, mvc2, or melee comes back

Good luck trying to lower the floor while having a high ceiling. It can't be done. Once you lower it, the same shit is going to happen that happened to the FPS genre.

Also, why is it that this topic keeps happening to fighting games while strategy games like Starcraft don't get in on this discussion at all?

Dragon Punch being called Z-motion is kinda misleading when it's actually 623

I'm an occupational therapist and I think 'accessibility' is a dumb term for what you're proposing, first off.

Anyway, I used to play GGXX/#R back when it was new and I used I-no pretty much exclusively. I think there's a good case for simplifying move inputs, especially if the game is well designed in the first place. GG is one of those series, you have a ton of defensive options that are universal to all characters and easy to implement (just before Xrd there wasn't any kind of training mode that explained this stuff to normies). Character-specific stuff should be tactics and movement IMO, and not performing ridiculously complex feats of manual dexterity.

>people think that dp, pretzel and 360 motions are there just to make moves difficult to pull off and not because it's a design decision since every motion has a reason to be the way they sre

Based solely on that image, without those 'walls' you can't have the tactics and decision making. I mean you cant have any game without some 'walls' at least as far as that image goes.

Nobody calls it z motion

The vid talks about accessibility in fighting games, and defines 3 kinds of "walls" one must overcome to "play the game".

One is physical accessibility, usually a problem for disabled people (like there's that guy who plays Street Fighter who is legally blind using sound cues, and that other guy who plays with his mouth on a special controller because he can't use his hands).

This one's cool, but not that interesting to solve, nor relevant to 99% of players.

The second wall is execution; having to do a SRK motion for SRK to come out, having to do a full circle for the throw, those kinds of things.

The third wall is game specific knowledge, like learning combos and mechanics.

The vid presents accessible fighting games on a scale, depending on how much they lessen the difficulty in climbing the second and third walls.

Divekick is so simple it's barely a fighting game and has no walls at all.

Rising Thunder removed the second wall by adding 1 button specials, but kept the third largely intact by essentially cloning SFIV's mechanics and gameplay, and arguably even increased it with the move and grove selection.

Fantasy Strike tries to lessen both by using 1 button specials and only the simplest combos/systems, inspired mostly by SFII instead of SFIV to get the players up to speed ASAP.

The vid considers this approach the best, as it can get people into the meat of the game. Paraphrased, if everyone would have to build their own telescope to see the night sky, it'd be a lot harder to convince them that the stars are worth exploring.

Theres tons of games out there if you enjoy strategy games, what I dont understand is why this david surloin guy thinks its a good idea to remove mechanical skill from fighting games as if they could stand out as pure strategy games

They do, because it is a Z motion on octo-gate sticks.

The good old image used for the "hur dur how do i fightan" thread

>Good luck trying to lower the floor while having a high ceiling. It can't be done. Once you lower it, the same shit is going to happen that happened to the FPS genre.

So what OW did and ended up highly successfull with?
High skill floor, low skill ceiling is what the masses want.

First off, mechanical skill literally can not be removed.

Second, because he thinks that outsmarting your opponent is more fun than out comboing him.

Third, your complex fighting games remain, so you can still style on your friends who are willing to give the genre a chance after trying FS.

>Also, why is it that this topic keeps happening to fighting games while strategy games like Starcraft don't get in on this discussion at all?
They do actually
People cry pretty regularly about gookclicking and how you need 400 apm to even have fun at RTS

Fucking nobody calls it z motion, it's either dp motion or srk motion. Is this some smashbros thing?

But learning the mechanical stuff is part of the fun

Have they ever considered that?

>Video starts with gimmick character
>Derails and goes to something else

What a turn off. I was hoping it would be a video about interesting gimmicky characters.

The second and third walls are necessary, without them I'd consider a fighting game pointless. The night sky can be seen by anyone and has enthralled humanity since long before we had lenses, so I don't get that analogy.

Yes. But not for everyone, and games where you learn a lot of the mechanical stuff already exist.

While fighting games where you don't, not really.

I don't see a problem with accessible fighters existing. It's dumbing down previously complex fighting game series that bothers me.

>First off, mechanical skill literally can not be removed.
not all of it, but he's trying to remove as much as possible and then talking about fighting games like they're chess or RTS or something. Isn't mechanical skill part of the fun? There's much better games out there if you want to outsmart your opponents

>The second and third walls are necessary, without them I'd consider a fighting game pointless.

Go, try Fantasy Strike, it has a free weekend coming up in like 8 hours.

>The night sky can be seen by anyone and has enthralled humanity since long before we had lenses, so I don't get that analogy.

That's the point. If there WAS a wall of "you have to build your own telescope" would it have enthralled people? Or would the majority just ignore it, since they can't even imagine what's there?

Not if you want to do it real time.

Tradition dictates that fighting games are to have a high skill ceiling, with special command inputs to do special moves, character specific strengths and weaknesses, and later on, welcome addition of character specific systems and tools.
Tradition exists for a reason
Ergo, fuck your argument.

This game is just going to massively flop

Casuals do not want competitive 1on1 games no matter how "easy" they are to get into.

Most of them play teambased games to begin with because of socializing reasons, so they can play with friends.

Also they dont want to be confronted with their own mistakes and 1v1 games do that.

Sitting down "alone" and practicing things is not what they want to do.

And actual fighting game players will trash it because its too simple for them.

What all these guys that try to make entry level fighters arent getting is, that the genre is just not adaptable for the masses.
At least not in this form.

If you really want a casual success make it a 5on5 smash bros clone with smash input style and no advanced tech.

>Tradition exists for a reason
...

Tradition is literally "we do these things because we have always done these things".

Which is the worst reason ever.

The problem with fighting games is not accessibility - prove me that doing combos in fighting games is fundamentally more difficult that being e-sport worthy at using sniper rifles in CS. The problem with fighting games are obsolete and uninteresting game modes, and lack of overarching sense of progress. They need to get rid of 1v1 formula somehow and add unlock system.

What high skill floor? You're fooling yourself if you think that's anywhere high enough. You made a succesfull game, for normies. This is what blizzard does.

>Not if you want to do it real time.
go try any RTS or even a MOBA
>Go, try Fantasy Strike, it has a free weekend coming up in like 8 hours.
Don't you have something better to do than defend your own game on Sup Forums?

>Which is the worst reason ever.
Keeping the retards out is a pretty good benefit to sticking to tradition in this case.

>go try any RTS
Good point, but RTS matches last way too long.

>or even a MOBA
MOBAs are not 1v1 and ALSO last way too long

Fighting games are the only genre where you get the thrill of high speed dueling, aside from a few FPSs maybe, but I massively prefer the fighting game gameplay to them.

some traditions exist because they've been proven to work and nothing has come along that says otherwise

Then they have another reason to exist even if you remove the "tradition" part; they work.

That said, you may be stopping yourself from doing something that works _better_

"I'll keep shitting in the woods, it works"

>Keeping the retards out is a pretty good benefit to sticking to tradition in this case.

You can do that with matchmaking.

And thank god for that.
Go play any other genre, stay away from my fitans. It's not about elitism, it's about normies invading my hobby and ruining/casualising it. It's been happening too often, I really hope it's not fighting games' turn to be dumbed down

so why would you want to remove mechanical skill from a game about high-speed dueling? you realize the more demanding inputs increases the mental pace/tension of the game?

>another dude that doesnt understand the word FLOOR

Protip high skill floor means that you can perform at a high level with low effort.

So exactly what you think about the game.

made me reply/10 good job

It seems more like, everyone can see stars but no-one knows what they're made of without specialist knowledge and equipment, or having such a specialist explain it to them and direct them how to find out for themselves if they're interested. Which seems fine to me, for both astronomy and vidya, and basically everything else. I don't think your analogy makes the point you want it to make. Nonetheless I do appreciate you taking the time to explain what you mean by accessibility, it's an interesting way to describe the issue in clear terms that avoids the more buzzwordy side of things.

>Protip high skill floor means that you can perform at a high level with low effort.
thats the opposite of what a high skill floor is

Idk
I can beat anyone online in rev 2
but when I try to play third strike I die against bots

I kind of want to take up Fencing or something. It looks like it would give the same rush as a fighting game but also doubles as exercise.

Fighting games are going to crumble and a new genre will be born. Just like what happened with RTS and MOBA.

I'm not sure why you think I don1t play fighting games.

I am. I just don't think the execution part is vital.

>Casuals do not want competitive 1on1 games no matter how "easy" they are to get into.
>Most of them play teambased games to begin with because of socializing reasons, so they can play with friends.
>Also they dont want to be confronted with their own mistakes and 1v1 games do that.
I definitely think this is a big reason for why fighting games will never be mainstream. Casuals will never be able to deal with the mano a mano aspect of fighting games.

Yeah I think they increase the variety in the genre, which is a good thing

You are thinking of a skill ceiling.

I also do martial arts, yes.

I kinda have a hard time finding friends who are down for a quick fisticuffs in games or irl because the barrier to entry is kinda high in both.

if the FLOOR is high everyone starts on a point where they are capable enough to compete with anyone else.

>Casuals will never be able to deal with the mano a mano aspect of fighting games
I think they enjoy it just fine, but only in person with an irl friend, not randoms online which is why all fighters have dead online.

I misread it, I though you meant high skill ceiling...

Match making works some of the time
High skill ceiling and the de'facto barrier of competence required to be any good with a game, works all the time.

a game having a high skill floor means you need alot of effort to preform at a high level
a game having a low skill floor means you need little effort to perform at a high level
do you even know what floor means

Fighting games are boring.

I play video games to experience new worlds and grow as a person by expanding my perspective and experiences. In fighting games you're just a robot going through the motions doing the same thing over and over until you get good at it. No thanks. My time is too valuable for that.

>My time is too valuable for that.
Says the guy shitposting on Sup Forums.

Not it doesnt, you are literally thinking of a ceiling not a floor.

But it also dissuades people who may not be retards.

FS skill ceiling is high as fuck

See this? This is the perception people who don't know fighting games have. Not "playing against others and understanding them through your FISTS!" but a boring mechanical slog.

there are three points on a skill graph:
Absolute zero - you have no skill at the game
Skill floor - the minimum skill required to play the game competently
Skill ceiling - the maximum relevant skill you can have at the game

>grow as a person by expanding my perspective and experiences

But user thats exactly what you do, its all about reading and understanding other people.

I wasn't exactly talking to you, just making ageneral statement. I can see from your posts that you play them.

I'm notYou are retarded. "Low floor, high ceiling" is what is used to describe games like Go which have simple to understand mechanics but hard to master.

I think there is some confusion on the phrasing here. You are thinking "high level" as in a competent fighter, someone who knows all the basics and can compete. He is most likely think of pro level in which the floor has no basis and you are basically only left with a ceiling if you have room to grow.

a game having a high skill ceiling means you need alot of effort to preform at a professional level, since great players tend to outshine good players

a game having a high skill floor means you need alot of effort to preform at a basic level.

Gb2 rising thunder faggot

I would if I could.

But FS still improves upon it, imo.

>when your friends always just get super salty when playing fighting games

*tips*

>Buy game
>play game
how does it get anymore accessible than this?

>grow as a person by expanding my perspective and experiences

They want to be good at a game without putting in the effort required. It has nothing to do with accessibility. Just them wanting to feel good about being a loser.

People like Sirlin want to make games in hopes that it will make people want to play the less accessible games.

But what usually happens is that nobody wants to leave that game for anything else and will continuously attack the Street Fighters and the Guilty Gears as inferior

I'm one of those people that really really suck at fighting games despite liking many of them, like the MvC series, Bloody Roar or MK. Sometimes i wish things were easier for me, but at the same time i realize it's a (sort of) niche genre and that it's my fault for not putting work into learning how to play. I've literally never enacted a Fatality in my life because I'm that lazy. Because when the opposite happens, when the game is too easy, i can tell it is and it pisses me off. My 6yo brother was able to beat Injustice's main campaign just by spamming simple punches and location hazards, and that's fucking ridiculous

At the end of the day people still have fun. I think most casuald already play these games with the idea that they'll get their asses kicked in sooner or later, unless it's for cinematic garbage like Injustice. I think removing that kind of promise would be like making an horror that becomes user-friendly by erasing all the scary parts

But again, i'm speaking as an absolute casuals, the issue is probably more complex than this

Good.
No wannabes allowed, anyone who looks at a fighting game and goes "I will learn this game" and then learns it, are accepted, not people who can't cut the mustard.

>My 6yo brother was able to beat Injustice's main campaign just by spamming simple punches and location hazards, and that's fucking ridiculous

Fighting game developers genereally don't put too much effort into the a.i. so don't feel too bad about it. It's all about fighting real players.

Video games is just pressing buttons.

>playing against others and understanding them through your FISTS!
This, Ryu's quotes from SF are even pointing that out. You can sometimes feel some bits of personality of the other player, especially during some long sets, see how he adapts, changes, reacts to your style.

Keep fighting games that same level of accessibility so tourneyfags aren't having the game dumbed down but add plenty of single-player content for the casuals to enjoy.
That's the best way to do it.

Youre just a bunch of pissbabies, third strike was my first fighting game and I learned all special moves in a day or 2, and combos for my character in day 3. Im now a decent player after like 3/4 months and I understand all concepts like footsies and shit

I get that, but then, why doesn't it happen with other games? We found a cabinet with Marvel Superheroes the other day and they couldn't even beat the first stage against Spiderman

I mean, why it happens with injustice, as i already said it's objective is to be cinematic, but still, from what I've seen from clips of PvP even of the sequel it's not too hard to pull off the same "strategy" and stuck the adversary in a loop

>if you want to remove all mechanical skill

But we don't. We just openly want the tech stuff to work more like Smash Bros.

It's the best fucking feeling, literally why I play fighting games.

Especially playing long games with a player, adapting to each others strategies as the game goes on... I just wish I could share it with others more easily.

Ayyyy, Smash is a pretty complex game execution-wise, it's just well hidden from casuals.

That's not what people mean when they say that though.

Yeah it's a good concept.

Take for example 3rd Strike. Let's say you want to play Urien. Urien with meter has hit-confirms into damage-scaling-resetting unblockables for literally a 100%-0% 1 hit touch of death combo if you have meter. Charge partitioning allows you to dash forward but still able to do the headbutt move to hop over his corpse (which is a down charge move), and the hit him from both sides. Watch this sequence of events: (start at 1:45)

youtu.be/92s7Ne6Yxsw?t=101

If you can't do this, you're shit.

If you play against someone who can do this and you can't do this, there is literally zero way you can lose.

When you are capable to technically inputting the correct inputs in order to do the Best Possible Thing (TM), a lot of games become REALLY shit.

Another example is SF2. After like 20 years a T-Hawk unblockable corner option select was found that allows him to infinitely chain throw you in the corner no matter what you do, if you put the right sequence of commands in. He was shit tier for eternity, and now he's top tier. All because you can hit the right combo of inputs. All the fun stuff of the game. the reads, zoning, etcetcetc, you can't get to that stuff if you can't get past that wall.

Game inputs should be as easy as possible while still retaining the things that actually make the game fun. Legacy fireball inputs and SRK inputs are just garbage.

>motions are there just to make moves difficult to pull off

This was literally the actual reason they were originally put into Street Fighter though, there was no initial pretense of balance.

Newer SF players say it

Video game development has changed over the years. Stopping your consumer from seeing all of the produced content is a big no-no these days in AAA games. One of the reasons you want to keep single player difficulty low is because it can stop your consumer from continuing to play or even refund the game entirely.

Injustice isn't one of the most difficulty games out there but it's a still a competitive fighting game. if someone gets stuck in a "loop" like you said, then they don't deserve to win because they failed to adapt. Adapting to your opponents strategy is key to winning. Unless you're playing SF4 Ibuki.

What's the hardest to learn fighting game?

>I mean, why it happens with injustice, as i already said it's objective is to be cinematic, but still, from what I've seen from clips of PvP even of the sequel it's not too hard to pull off the same "strategy" and stuck the adversary in a loop

That's mostly because of Injustice being ass. Zoners are really good in those games for some reason, and characters don't have many tools.

There's still mindgames and stuff, but you need to dig deep for them.

This. 90% of fighting game traditions started with SF.

6 buttons is the 3 strengths of punch kick that arcade cabinet had.
Special move inputs, as you have said.

Hell, fucking sticks and up-to-jump. We could have been playing on a hitbox since day 1.