Is this guy right? Should MMOs made today be designed this way?

Is this guy right? Should MMOs made today be designed this way?

Yes, poopsocking shouldn't be the endgame.

He's basically right.
No one likes dailies, but everyone who seriously plays an MMO feels obligated to do them or "fall behind"
MMOs thrive partly on getting people to do busywork, but dress it up as fun. It's gamification of tasks.

He's absolutely right. I dread going back to WoW. I love leveling and raiding but the necessity of playing every damn day pisses me off.

They manage to timegate you so you feel like you can't do as much as you want to when you're actually enjoying the game, but if you stop playing for a couple weeks you fall so far behind and start to hate it.

Yeah, I agree with him.

I genuinely think YoshiP is one of the smartest people in video games.

No, that's not what a MMO is. This is themepark cancer, and it's fucking terminal. The MMO is supposed to be a world to explore, and have to rely on others in and be relied upon in return. Zones aren't supposed to be obsolete once you finish a quest chain.. Not idle in town waiting for a queue. This guy runs a theme park, not a MMO.

I think the fact I can go into Savage with full crafted (non-time gated gear) and do fine is pretty sweet.

He is right. Dailies which feel like a fucking night shift job makes people quit MMOs, me included.

God ToS was a disappointment.

Whens the last time a MMO had a actual world to explore? Shit gets datamined and theorycrafted by week one. There's no sense of wonder or surprise when you can Google everything in 5 seconds.

He's right, but it goes deeper than

MMO's nowadays (his included) have become shitty single player RPGs. No one plays with one another, no one wants to use the party finders to find other parties because of how picky everyone has become. The idea of meeting someone while leveling and spending an evening with them is dead.

Back in the day, not even that long ago, I would sometimes just toss random invites out to people in the same area as me, and we would go smash shit. It was some of the most fun I had. Now I'm lucky if I even see another player leveling or another player doing anything other than their dailies.

There's about 120 active parties in party finder right now on primal server in FFXIV.

To a point but the allure of an MMO for a lot of people is the giant persistent world. You can make it more accessible but how do you stop people from driving player economy, competitive raiding or pvp that drive people to play everyday while at the same time keeping the carrot on the stick fresh enough for people leveling and at the end game?

I think ultimately MMOs need to be multifaceted and have different types of end games for different people and have ways that you can be engaged in the game and get immediate entertainment without needing to prep all week for your raid. Warhammer Online did that really well by having open groups where you could just drop in to some 40 man raid at level 20 that was storming across that given zone(s) fighting for keeps that had very minor purposes but gave immediate rewards and gave you a break from the monotony of leveling.

Not the same thing as what hes describing at all.
Its my biggest issue with modern MMOs, and I've put a shit load of time into XIV.
Modern MMOs really are just glorified match making lobbies. You get in, you beat the daily dungeon without so much as a word, log out.

Back in the golden ages of MMOs socialization was mandatory. Made some great friends in FFXI because of that. Even old Everquest Online Adventures.

Watching the state of MMORPGs, I feel kinda like I'm the crazy one now. Everyone has just kinda.. accepted that this is how it's gonna be. I'm still foolishly clinging to what greatness it once was.

I honestly don't see how you can find a difference in farming heroic badges every week and doing a daily quest.

poopsockers killed MMOs
Based Austin powers wants to save them

If you want your MMO to be successful then he's 100% right. Normies are too busy these days and you can't have excessive grinds that are mandatory or else you drive them away. Just look at what Legion did with artifact weapons. If slacked off grinding AP then you were severely behind people. Sure there are catch up methods but those changes don't come until many months later but by the time that happens a new grind comes out (new tier gear, faction reputation, etc)

I'm not sure any MMO has ever had a world to explore. They're all paintings that you can look at but not interact with in any meaningful way.
And honestly I don't think actually reactive worlds will work well with a ton of people in them. Maybe servers with like 60 players, but certainly not in the hundreds.

You can't Savage raid without being social. Even in old MMOs like ffxi the easy content was beaten without speaking a word as people already knew what to do and the combat was so slow you could alt tab and browse gamefaqs and still fight competantly.

Good socialization is discussing how to work together to beat a dungeon/boss. The kind of socialization you're nostalgic for is the kind where people talk to dull the pain of awful mmo grinding.

I want to agree with you, but without the addictive/forced daily tasks, won't people drift away and the game will die? Same way some really good singleplayer games have no playerbase left. Even though the game is good, there's no incentive to drop in again.

If you don't like daily content and whatnot don't play fucking MMOs

Just release TBC 2.4.3 and put all work into hosting more servers and we don't need any other MMOs.

>Good socialization is discussing how to work together to beat a dungeon/boss
more like did you watch the video? if yes good, if not, kicked.

>catering to casuals
thats literally what killed OSRS.
People with apparently busy lives choose to play one of the most grindy games.

As long as new content is added on a consistent schedule and things with endless playability like pvp and crafting exist then I don't see how the game would die unless the devs make bad content ala gordias.

>I'm not sure any MMO has ever had a world to explore.
Runescape desu.
You could get lost just trying to get to varrock your first week.

>retards didn't know about the world map
I think thats more a people issue than anything with the game user

Are you a fresh cunt? That wasn't added during the original 2007 days

Nah. This is more common.
Occasionally you'll have someone throw out a discord, have a shot caller or someone explain while everyone else sits in silence and does the fight. Then everyone heads out once they've gotten it.
Before, even if it was everyone just chatting through a grind, it did breed friendships, and actual socialization was required to a greater extent than it is now. I accept that a lot of that is gone just due to the nature of the net now. People can do multiple other things while looking for a group than chattin with the rando they just met. However there really isn't even the need to try and get people together anymore, given that all MMOs have a matchmaking system now.

I also miss the time before dataminers ruined all the games secrets and slapped them on a wiki, but I guess thats something else thats just a thing of the past. Wikis will always be here now. Though I do wish something could be done about dataminers.

Gods. I miss getting lost in RO and running into a helpful person.

i don't know who's lesbian aunt this is but she's right

Its not really a bad thing though, It was a nice feeling just exploring.
Flash forward to playing gulid wars 2 with my friends who were huge into WoW. And they started getting on me for not fast-travelling everywhere because i liked taking in the scenery. And then i ask them whats the point of playing an MMO where you skip 80% of the game as fast as possible. And all they say is "but raids".
If you didnt use any special client, there was a world map added eventually above the game window.

He's correct. If you make your game with tons of grind and attunements like wildstar then it flops hard. People talk big about how they want old school MMOs back but that audience doesn't bring in money at all, they're niche as fuck.

Wildstar flopped because they fucked up the launch, didnt cater to casuals, and then proceeded to actievely fight against you logging off with distractions and diversions every other step.

No, that's like a recipe to make shit games and I do not want shit games. That being said, perhaps he is right in financial feasibility terms, perhaps you really do need to make MMORPGs into casual shit in order to draw in enough people to make money.

There has always been a world map on the brown bar at the top for RS2 dipshit

Still take note how everyone before wildstar launch was praising how it was gonna be like old wow with attunements and huge raids. Then when it actually launched that audience was no where to be found. The people that raid seriously are a minority while the majority are people that want LFR and easy mode raids.

VR will save the mmo's

I think he's half right.

In terms of endgame, I think weeklies are the best thing to do in competition with dailies. Compared to other games, FF14 doesn't make you feel bad for not logging in that day or forgetting a small but important daily. It's a good step compared to ones that spam them.

On the other hand, for end game, after finishing raids and capping tomes, there's very little to do if you don't bother to craft or gather. The game is slowly turning into something I play on Tuesday and forget for the rest of the week.

Shame. I liked their art and dodge stuff.

How?
Regular games still have no full-movement combat.
Theyre either stationary, or first person """"""exploring""""" games.

When the average home PC can do 120hz no problem to avoid VR sickness then VR MMOs will be viable.

So see you in the year 2052

because of this i said will
in 10 or 15 years.
like the anime overlord
if someone made a game like this(minus cash items) i would gladly die virgin.

I'm about to let my sub lapse after 2 months in SB and I feel comfortable that I can jump right back in later if I want. That's a pretty nice feeling. I can go spend my free time with another game or another hobby then come back and get into things. The hardcore players still have lots they could do, especially with FCs and in-game social shit like ERPing so this seems pretty good for modern gamers.

This is essentially why I stopped playing FFXIV. I saw my friends playing 8 different games while I sat there and ran whatever primal EX for the 99th time to get one if sevem birds that mean absolutely nothing.

His is right but there is still a fundamental design issue with FF14 and that is following the exact same patch cycle since 2.0. Do we really need each expansion to play out exactly like the last?

The fight mechanics are fantastic but they really need to take all that money they are apparently making and figure out new ways to present content.

Want to try again, brother?

I think Runescape is one of the few games to do this right. It was a game completely based on grinding, but none of the grind was forced. You could have as much fun at level 1 as you could at max level, and it was actually uncommon to be max level. I imagine that if you plotted the level distribution of players in the game that it would be pretty close to a bell curve, because endgame is not the goal in Runescape; it's the journey that is important.

the exact same reason i dropped Granblue. Every day that passes i feel better.

Only way I will play one so yeah I think so

>figure out new ways to present content.
>LoV
>Diadem
>PVP
>PotD
>Aquapolis

I don't know about anyone else but I usually play mmos for the world, music, lore, and of course gameplay. Grindy shit always turns me off. I don't mind it as much in my old rpgs but I can't stand it these days.

By the time you reach the real endgame in ffxiv you would have already invested hundreds of hours into 1 character (unless you level boosted or bought your account from someone). Normally people would get burned out playing a single video game for that long so that's why the dev encourages people to play other games or focus on real life priorities as they make new content in a future patch. It's like the warning screen in FFXI that tells you to not forget about your real life and that vandiel/eorzea is just a game. All games eventually come to a end. It's impossible to make content that last forever and always stays fun without fail.

i am the same fag

I dont wanna hear it. Getting rid of shit like match makers and auction houses would bring back communication, but it would also bring back asstons of tedium that people tend to funnily forget about.

Take the official classic runescape servers that opened up. Last I recall they didn't go very long until they had to inject the auction house back in. People had so much fucking nostalgia for typing "SELLING LOBBIES 120GP" a hundred times, and then they went out to do it and said fuck it. People used third party websites to put up what they were selling, essentially using a clunkier version of the grand exchange until Jagex buckled and put the real thing back in.

It doesn't matter what you think makes the game better if you can't convince whoever is financing the game of that as well

Especially since some fucker brings in data to say that we need to make a shooter because 60% of the most successful games in the past 4 years have been a first person shooter

All pointless side content in the grand scheme. Some fun, yes I will admit.

The problem though is they are scared to death to change the formula for the main content.

>all those years of meeting high level people in barrows or d legs
>going back to the skilling or slayer grind and talking to randoms about random bullshit

Those were the years.

Why would you go with the shooter example? Go with the MMO example:
>Why would an investor greenlight a MMO wich disincentivizes you from renewing your subscription and does not hook you, when they are in it for the money?

Realistically what could they add to shake things up without pissing people off by waiting longer than 3 months to implement said major patch

just personal experience is all

Their formula gave us the leadup to nignog's fight, which is probably the best part of ff14.
It also gave us the fucking ul'dah assassination plotline that just got undone with no real explanation.
Their formula is very variable.

Why not just sell XP bonuses then? Make it so that you can buy a cash shop item that multiplies your XP gain over a certain amount of time and that can only be used after a cooldown that is recharged by staying away from the game.

You make it so that people who only play once in a while, lets say twice a week by instance, can still not be so out of the rat's race but still keeping the progression always faster to the ones who play every day. As if you play frequently the bonus don't work, it won't be seen as a P2W mechanic so everyone gets happy.

>endless playability
>crafting

i
wish

i have yet to see the mmo in which that's remotely true

>got undone with no real explanation.
There was an explanation. You just didn't like it because you think the only kind of meaningful development is if everyone dies.

Well this thread is about MMOs, thought it was strange you going for the shooter example.

>endless AP grind
>world quests
>RNG loot upgrades forcing you to farm everything

This is why WoW is dying.

There's always money to be made from crafting so it's indeed endless. I can sell 1 million gil on Balmung to RMT buyers for almost $20 USD.

Timegated resource nodes in ffxiv make it seem like crafting is endless. So much fucking hate for those pieces of shit.

>It was MOSTLY-dead poison, not completely dead poison!
>now we can all be friends again!
>after all that fucking buildup
it was shit, and anyone that unironically defends this is a fucking retard.

>advocating any form of a cash shop or exp skip
You either play the game or dont.
A game cant cater to both casual and hardcore players. It just doesnt work.
Youre never going to be the only one at your level so why the fuck does it even matter?

It's the pragmatic approach to MMO making and he isn't wrong. I've played plenty of olden MMOs but the nostalgia goggles for them sometimes gets absurd. People complain about the MSQ of XIV when its fucking nothing compared to smashing your face in a guild dungeon in RO for hours for 1% exp or farming (botting) a map for tens of hours in Maplestory.

While not all MMOs should be designed as a themepark obviously, for the sake of variety, what people expect and think they want out of an MMO isn't what they actually want. Devs should be more focused on what they want to make and not be afraid of fucking with the playerbase, they shouldn't always follow the feedback of the playerbase because listening to the 99% of MMO mongloids eventually leads to a themepark MMO anyways.

That's why I quit MMOs, why waste all that time on one game?

>It was MOSTLY-dead poison, not completely dead poison!
Do you not know what a fucking coma is?
>now we can all be friends again!
He did it all to save everyone, and succeeded. Because the Sultana was a dumb fucking whore whose solution to the problem was to give up, throw the country into chaos, and let the people sort it out.
Do you not realize you fell into the same trap that Nidhogg fell into? Screaming for revenge against someone who had nothing to do with what happened? The whole thing was also more set-up for Stormblood than it was for Heavensward.

Yoshi is a hack fraud who should never have been put in charge of 14.

Fuck dailies. I got about a week's worth of sucking up to those overgrown lizards in FFXIV and just....couldn't do it anymore. Supposedly it takes three fucking months of straight playing to max out a beast race's affection. I cannot for the life of me figure out how people do dailies without losing part of their soul.

All I wanted was the stupid mask anyway

...

>You can't Savage raid without being social.
Yes you can, you join a guild and have others be social for you. Then you just tag along into the raid. This is how basement dwelling NEETS beat all the WoW raids.

Socialization now is secondary because of the ease of not having to care about anyone or talk to anyone you don't already know.

it hurts my soul to say it, as someone who loves playing games and making them

but you have to make games people want if you want to keep making games

That said, "make the best mmo i can possibly imagine" is on my short list of "Things to Do When I am a Billionaire"

>Good socialization is discussing how to work together to beat a dungeon/boss.The kind of socialization you're nostalgic for is the kind where people talk to dull the pain of awful mmo grinding.

This is just party dynamics. Only a friendless weirdo would think that your only purpose to talk to other people is to complete the task at hand.
Believe it or not, talking to other people whom you don't know can be fun. Weird, huh?

I takes about a month, maybe a bit longer, to max out all the ARR Beast Tribes (excluding Ixal)

>commits treason
>IT WAS FOR YOUR OWN GOOD
retards believe this

You should at least respect Yoshida's work ethic. He works two jobs being director and producer, he revived a MMO that flopped commercially and critically globally which has never been done in video game history, and he cares about his fans well-being telling them to not be a NEET over a MMO and be whatever you want to be (which is also the design philosophy of xiv where you can do anything as any race/gender). I don't see how anybody can hate this guy unless you're Nep the Fat Ninja.

as we on this neo-assyrian filleting BBS know, the only reason to talk to other people is to call them niggers apropos nothing

>saving the Sultana's life is treason
Are you actually retarded?

Joining a static in ffxiv requires to be social, nobody likes carrying other silent retards. If you don't talk especially for when you have to call out mechanics then you're a drain on the party and nobody wants you.

>raid with the same group for over a year
>nobody has to call out anything
>when something doesn't go as planned, we all know how each other will react and everything locks into place anyway
git gud

>knows about and helps a plot to poison her
>when everyone thinks she's dead, milks it for everything it's worth, pushes his agenda through and castrates what nanamo was planning
>eventually shows that he didn't actually kill her to keep the godslaying badass that is eorzeas only fucking defense against eikons from murdering him
>saves

Not true at all

I know I'd spend actual time playing MMOs if they didn't make it feel like an obligation to play. Subscription pay model doesn't help.

pay for time played mmo when

Nobody asked about your silent retard group faggot.

>knows about and helps a plot to poison her
He joined in on the plot to sabotage it from the inside, you fucking idiot.
>when everyone thinks she's dead, milks it for everything it's worth, pushes his agenda through
What agenda did he push through, exactly? None. He even told everyone that Nanamo was just sick and was having bedrest.
>castrates what nanamo was planning
She was planning to rip out the system of government that Ul'dah had since its founding with no plan of action afterwards just because she wanted to give up. He wasn't about to let her fucking destroy her own country because she had a bitchfit.
>eventually shows that he didn't actually kill her to keep the godslaying badass that is eorzeas only fucking defense against eikons from murdering him
The plot was to wake her up and expose Teledji during the Scions' inevitable trial, until Raubhan cut the fucker in half. He didn't wake Nanamo up because he was scared. He woke her up because that was the plan from the moment he put her in a fucking coma. God damn, how can you be this stupid? He even gave her half his fucking estate afterwards on the terms that she properly prepare Ul'dah for the war that was coming.

I think this was the philosophy that lead to a lot of the problems with current MMOs and how stagnant the market is-- the whole game has to be designed around this endless climb of progression which means old areas eventually die entirely and it discourages new blood from entering. If new blood does enter, there has to be ways for them to "catch up" and what ends up happening is a lot of the in-game content goes out the window in the process.

The solution is to focus on what MMOs can do uniquely and then also look at what they largely haven't done. Think about the social aspects of MMOs and how many people play just to basically chill out with other people. How many MMOs actually have any real homestead/customization in any real capacity? Shit like that more or less died a long time ago. How many games actually look at their game like a social platform with an expanse of features for communication instead of assuming their players will just use external programs and shit?

Most of the gameplay ends up mindless cooldown grind instead of more engaging (think Vindictus/MH/PSO/Guild Wars 1 vs traditional MMO combat). The MMO market has this slumbering potential within it. I know it isn't quite 1:1, but look at the online success of something as content-barren as Minecraft and the longevity it provides without forcing "daily" content. Allowing players to create/customize/make shit means they do make daily progress but that progress will be waiting for them at the same time.

If you're not social then how do you even join serious statics? It's pretty much like a job interview. You don't get the spot unless you can prove you can communicate effectively. It's to weed out the silent retards.

Unless you're joining a joke static or make your own

>advocating any form of a cash shop or exp skip
Then go and make your own game for free. After you fail you will notice that to have someone making a good game you need someone paying for it.

>A game cant cater to both casual and hardcore players. It just doesnt work.
The option I gave allows you to cater to both. You still are on top by playing it enough, but you give a progression option to others who won't play too much. And due to usage it isn't a P2W mechanic like just buying the XP freely as much you want.

>Youre never going to be the only one at your level so why the fuck does it even matter?
What you want isn't what reality gives you. A big part of MMOs are progression, be in equips, be in monsters you can kill, be in areas you can explore...
There is a potential user base that isn't willing to spend all their free time playing a MMORPG and because they won't play it hardcore style they progress so slowly that eventually things get stale and they quit and take their money elsewhere. It matters because people need a motivation to keep playing your game, and getting access to more things that comes with having a higher level comes with them.

I think the mmo problem could be solved by just eliminating stats and classes almost entirely. Come up with relatively simple yet engaging gameplay that doesn't demand extreme specialization so there's not a cookie cutter method to every in game challenge.

Imagine if you took The gameplay of Warband and applied it to an mmo. Gear could still be a factor that had positives and negatives-heavy armor makes you slow, fast weapons did less damage, but for the most part everyone was on an even playing field.

Make pvp a primary aspect of the game, and have a reward system that revolved around building up castles and fiefs. Embrace EVE's economic philosophy, and let players naturally congregate, rob, murder, cooperate, and form bands of bandits or long standing armies. Let players create the narrative and stop relying on a class system. If you're kingdom was getting fucked by another and there was no way out? Well- maybe it's time disband and form a mercenary troupe, or become bandits, or join the opposing team.

Gaming in general is dead but it has nothing to do with the games. People in general have changed. Back even just 10 or so years ago, each website had its own atmosphere and culture, every game had its own community. Even just surfing the web felt like a journey because every place you found was new and exciting with its own lingo and habits and etc etc.

These days, something like 50-60% of all internet traffic is funneled into around 30 or so websites (youtube, google, etc) and it really shows. Everywhere you go, its the same general malaise of a "culture". Even playing some obscure multiplayer flash title will have people going "HUHUH KAPPA" and whatnot. The entire internet is homogenized. Doesn't matter where you go or who you talk to, at the end of the day it's going to more or less be the exact same experience - a sarcastic nihilist with a wicked sense of humor. The same memes, same behavior. Even memes are homogenous. New game? Doesn't matter - here's a recycled ghetto template of "when the x but she still y" except the x and y are game relevant. It's like every new experience comes prepackaged now, memes and all, right out of the box.

Don't even have to play games anymore. Every online community is ruined. The other user had it right, the idea of encountering a stranger and spending the evening with them is gone. Of course, games generally aren't helping this, but it's an uphill battle. There's a lot you can do to fight this when designing a game but I'm running out of space in this post and don't want to be too autistic.

>actually believes this convoluted headcannon bullshit
If he wanted to wake her, he would've done so immediately. He kept her as a bargaining chip because both rauban and the WoL were going to kill him messily. He explicitly makes a deal with her life as the collateral.
That is treason. Even other potatofags recognize this you cockmunching retard.