we'll give you a metric ton of weapons and ways to murder and to maim your enemies

> we'll give you a metric ton of weapons and ways to murder and to maim your enemies
> but don't you go using them unless you wanna rack up them bad karma points and get the evil ending :^)

What did the stealth genre mean by this?

MGS4 did that too and it infuriated me.
>You enjoy all the killing Snake

That whole message always fell flat on its face and Kojima should have stopped using it after The Sorrow's sequence in MGS3. They're not people we're killing it's just imaginary characters made up of programming and animation.

You're supposed to outsmart the game by using non-lethal ways to achieve your goals, which are more difficult than just killing everything in your path.

>the evil ending
MGSV has only one ending tard.

> what are demon points

Things that don't change the ending you double tard.

The point is that the player is supposed to resist the temptation of beating the game "the easy way" with the automatic guns and explosives, and want to do it stealthfully. There'd be no point if the game forced you to use just the stealth weapons by not giving you anything else.
Also, I don't think any of the Metal Gear games gave you different endings based on how violent
or steathy you were, it just affected your score / ranking.

Sure enough and that's the best way to play this, but I've found some stealth games (cough cough Dishonored) build their difficulty around a confrontational style. That is, they expect you to fight and kill people and make it hard for you to do so (more enemies, tougher enemies, etc.)

But if you just ghost the game, like I often do, you can finish the mission in five minutes. It feels like the game is forcing you to give up half the content.

But being a demon doesn't effect gameplay.

>Most game devs are now making """stealth""" games into glorified mass murder simulators instead

It's sad that now stealth games just promote killing because it's the past of least resistance to beat the challenge.

Only Dishonored does that, to my knowledge.

>a shit ton of weapons
>they're all fake

The MGS games challenge you to resist all these cool weapons.
Be the better man.

>still believing the partriot given fake names are real
Go feed the war economy, you witless grunt.

>using MGS (a military game) as an example
Hitman is THE REAL example

The game wants you to sedate a non-target for his uniform, strangle your target with a fibre wire (or do a unique-kill) and get the hell out of there. Oh but here are some dual .45 ACP pistols as your fucking signature weapons, some dual Sawn-off shotguns, dual Uzis, an M60, a Minigun, and a Katana. Go out there and have fun!

>can't even dev the Mare's Leg ingame
shit desu.

See, that's the thing. It cockteases you about using the fireworks and automatic weapons but then amps up the difficulty when you do (adaptive enemies in MGSV, rats in Dishonored, etc.) so it doesn't end up being the easy way at all.

What is 'harder' in the short term, non-lethal runs, ends up making the game stupidly easy later on. So you end up with

> A) Use all the toys and make the game harder threefold, plus get evil endings/bad karma/whatever
> B) Abstain yourself and make the game piss-easy for those good-boy points

You can actually neutralise enemies without killing them, just shoot the leg.

>can't get skulldicks mare's leg

what the fuck kojimbo?

If you go for an all S/all op run most weapons are useful

>Suppressed AR to kill enemies quickly without alerts
>Suppressed SR for quick assassinations/ mission completion
>Brennan/Serval for quick skull kills
>Tranq weapons to avoid kills
>Riot sub-machine for short range stuns
>Rocket launcher for tank and anti-vehicle missions, guided launchers for gunships
>Explosives for diversion and to destroy anti air radars

Only shotguns suck

there is no difference in the story. Killing enemy soldiers doesn't add Demon pts. Building a nuke is what matters most.

> Killing enemy soldiers doesn't add Demon pts.

Em, user...

What does it matter when the game is singleplayer? You're not being 'forced' to do anything and it's not like you can't play both ways.

>But if you just ghost the game, like I often do, you can finish the mission in five minutes
I dunno, it takes me far longer to ghost through stealth games, I just like exploring every square inch of the level before going further.

literally every modern ""stealth"" game ever

>have to go out of your way and restrict yourself just so you can play the game properly

I get you. I'm just too pragmatic when playing, I suppose

I think I cucked myself out of having fun in MGSV by going full non-lethal/stealth and never developing/using the lethal weapons

W H Y

If you kill your enemies, they win.

>Only shotguns suck
In general, yes, but sticking a silencer on the stun shotgun is pretty powerful. Can take down highly-armored guards on FOBs in 2 shots, without alerting anyone, since the airblast ignores armor.

I've never understood this, this is always the reason why people shit on Dishonored but you don't have to restrict yourself. Nobody is breathing down your neck telling you how to play, they just give you the option to play stealthily or aggressively and let the player decide what they want to do. It's not as if you're competing against other players, they're single player games.

This. The air shotgun is actually fucking great for FOBs

To be more precise, killing enemies don't add enough demon points if you do the regular story stuff. Saving quiet & DD, going to animal platform first time, rescuing kids, stopping sally etc. remove demon points way more than going full Ain't me on your enemies will give.

Hitman does it nicely though
You can replay any level you want without having to restart the entire game, and the older ones let you collect weapons to bring to those missions
Plus your actions don't matter for future missions except for Blood Money so you don't have to replay to get another ending

why do you care so much about what ending you get

> we'll give you a metric ton of weapons and ways to murder and to maim your enemies
> but don't you go using them unless you wanna rack up them bad karma points and get the evil ending :^)
>but we also give you a game breakingly broken tranq gun at the start too if you want to play the "boring" way

>dishonored 2 adds non-lethal combat
>"oh cool"
>sword fight a guard, parry him and start to choke him out
>another guard just fucking shoots at me killing him

Tranq pistol was a mistake

the devs obviously encourage stealthy non lethal playthrough with various points, achievements and ending.
In my opinion, these games trying to be jack of all trades, trying to appeal to every playstyle hurt them more. They usually end up lacking in both of the worlds and mixing them up is also not an option either. It just takes me out of the game when I know I can mop the floor with the bad guys, why am I hiding from them? Its just that when you ignore 80% of games features whats there left to have fun with?

Stun shotgun is your goto weapon before you reach grade 8+ gear.

*SNORT*
>slaughter thousands of men
PAY MY BILLS
>how was i supposedo know that was wrong
*PUSHES BUTTONS*
>bugged morality mechanics
NOTHING I COULD DO

There aren't even that many guns in the end. The list looks huge, but that's only because it pads things out super hard with things AK (normal), AK (short barrel), AK (heavy barrel), AK (7.62), AK (7.62, short barrel), AK (7.62, heavy barrel). You cut that shit out and there's like four weapons per class, sometimes less.

Only learnt the other day that blowing up vehicles doesn't count as a kill if the people inside it die, so suddenly RPGs became viable.

Are you stupid? Yes, your stupid.
You need a vast amount of demon points just to raise a horn. And karma influences only on your appearance and maybe your crew's mood. There is no "bad ending for bad karma" in the game at all!

>The point is that the player is supposed to resist the temptation of beating the game "the easy way" with the automatic guns and explosives, and want to do it stealthfully.
This is bad game design desu

Yeah I get what you mean and I agree, it just makes me laugh when people act like they're being forced to play a certain way in a single player game. I enjoyed Dishonored for what it was because I took what I wanted from it. I wanted a first person stealth game that I could ghost that wasn't Thief 1 and 2 and that's what I got. It was nice to have the option to play as a overpowered *teleports behind you* guy and I replayed a few levels that way, but I never felt like the game was forcing me to play a certain way and a dev was going to jump out of my monitor and tell me off for killing someone.

Not an arugment.

>far cry 3
>shoot someone
>guy sees it
>instead of taking cover and checking the area (highly dense jungle all around the camp, could be anywhere) he fucking runs RIGHT @ me
>get spotter moving through tonnes of foliage
>save the game
>quit
>play it next day
>no save
nu-stealth is fucking shit

>MGSV
>use the tranq
>shoot anywhere on their body
>"must be the wind or something"
>repeat ad infinitum to clear a base without any hassle
>use my CQB sniper (red dot, 75 round drum)
>shoot a helmet
>*PING*
>everymother fucker goes apeshit and checks my area
>have to run around killing people one by one
>get to the last guy
>*spotted*
>kill him

>playing any stealth game aside from Thief or Hitman
I hope you learned from your mistake.

But it is. A proper game would have

> incentive -> challenge -> reward

But most stealth games, with the craze to have ten billion tools in your belt to use, do

> incentive -> punishment (for lethal runs)

or

> challenge -> end credits (in non-lethal runs)

Is it too much to ask for a game that incentivises non-lethal runs, challenges you while doing them and rewards you for doing them?

I'm sure beginning to understand that lesson. On that note, should I start with Dark Project, Metal Age or Thi4f?

>but don't you go using them unless you wanna rack up them bad karma points and get the evil ending :^)
what who cares
I wasted my time carefully tranquilizing and choking people for 2/3 the game because I wanted MB staff. Then by the end of the game it didn't even matter because you need to do all the FOB bullshit to ever possibly get enough staff to get the cool shit. Way more fun on PC with mods to unlock everything from the start.

my main gripe with dishonored games is that they are too easy. I played them both like pure stealth and guns blazing. Both times I felt like they were lacking in both regards.
I guess I just dont like challenging myself, I like to be challenged by others. When I have to deliberately gimp myself to experience some semblance of difficulty all it tells me is that the game is bad

>being good is harder than being evil
So, basically the same as reality, then

Dark Project/Gold. Avoid Thi4f like the plague.

MGS V was a mistake.

All I'm asking is they make being good as fun as being evil, even if you do it for moral pleasure. You're playing to have fun, after all

Stealth requires the tension of being caught, which requires you to be weaker than your enemies, if not individually then at least because you're outnumbered. If you're just a combat god who's magnanimously holding back to amuse himself until the foolish mortals force his hand, where's the tension? If you were capable of levelling the enemy base single-handedly, why were you taking the effort to infiltrate carefully?

I actually don't mind how Splinter Cell Blacklist did the scoring for stealth kills
Basically no disturbed enemies>non-lethal>stealh kills>loud kills

>Is it too much to ask for a game that incentivises non-lethal runs, challenges you while doing them and rewards you for doing them?
Well, Phantom Pain has two out of those three at least. It's just missing the challenge part, since nonlethal is way easier than lethal for some reason.

Non-lethal was always the easiest option in MGS though because would never react strangely to a knocked out guard unless they weren't already in Alert status. If you kill a guard though you have to worry about them finding the body or bloodstains, and if they do find them they go out looking for you. The only time non-lethal was a problem was in the boss battles.

Deadly Shadows is also worth playing.

Thank you, kind user.

i forgot to add that the only con to going lethal or loud is less money at the end of a mission to spend on new gear

PP, for all the shit it gets, is probably my favourite stealth game. Dude Sex 1 is probably a close, close second.

But this is OP not having played Thief, like said above

Often times it isn't, even. "Stealth" isn't synonymous with "non-lethal". The choice between knocking out your enemies or stealth-killing them is often arbitrary. In Human Revolution, non-lethal takedowns were even the superior option from a mechanics point of view.

I've been putting off Dishonored for a couple years at this point because I worry about the scoring

>playing hitman contracts
>dress up as police officer
>walk into terrorist area
>they shoot at me and chase me
>run back to the police area
>the terrorists follow me and shoot me in front of my fellow police officers
>the police then pull their guns and shoot me

why is the AI in Hitman so retarded

>MGS4 did that too and it infuriated me
how did it penalize you for killing grunts, besides score?

If you like stealth, it's honestly a timesink. I just clocked around 20 hours and it felt like six, going the non-lethal route.

Also the deeper lore about the Void, Outsider and Abbey is a gold nugget if you're into Tolkien, Dune or even Morrowind and Divine Cybermancy. 9/10 from me on that front.

Don't you balance out, or just get rid of Demon points by fultoning people, taking nukes from FOBs, fultoning animals, etc?

>>MGSV
>>use the tranq
>>shoot anywhere on their body
>>"must be the wind or something"
>>repeat ad infinitum to clear a base without any hassle

you'd run out of ammo or the others would spot fallen guys and alert the CP. Also gl doing an S/hard run by slowly tranq everyone

the stun shotgun is the only worthwhile shotgun in the game, and even the urugan-s is just as effective.

>stealth genre
Metal Grind 5 is not a stealth game dummy.

>Not pot-shotting a guy in the feet to bring him to the ground while you hold up and interrogate him while he slowly bleeds out

Non-lethal is fun as fuck with lethal guns.

>guy collapses
>HUH?
>*his friend runs over to him*
>*crouches next to him*
>*tranq him*
you dont tranq everyone though, tranq one guy and while he is about to sleep choke the other guy. the game is piss easy

>set your game around real historical geopolitical events
>make all the guns and vehicles FAKE, jarringly disconnecting the story from reality and historical facts
What did Kojima even think this would accomplish?

Not him, but that gamestyle is just sloppy IMO. I much prefer going the complete ghost route -- no-one can EVER even suspect someone was in their base.

This game did the stealth pretty well. You can be lethal/non-lethal/tricky/ghost/whatever as long as you didn't fuck up.

Probably thinking the dev or publisher didn't want to shell out money for licensing fees

I'm probably being baited but the "fake" guns could work, they're not Bethesda Fallout tier bad. They're mashups of various real guns, or for some just simple renames.

how does a retard like you make it past floating rave kid and mad fire ghost with your "immersion" intact

>jarringly disconnecting the story from reality and historical facts
Nigger fucking what

Just because it has some resemblance to geopolitical events doesn't mean that it is trying to be a sociopolitical commentary on the events of soviet invasion of Afghan. It's a world with PMCs the size of a country, giant mechs, psychics and AI controlling the world shadow government, are you sure those do not disconnect you from the reality of things? No? Fucking retard.

tired replaying it with guns and explosives but it still pretty boring, using the FPS mods and its kinda fun
>killan @ the airport
>all is well
>pretty fun
>almost killed everyone
>get stunlocked by 2 guys with shotguns
>die

Visual similarity doesn't mean shit.
As long as you use fake names and not the official designations, you can model your guns based on real life products as much as you want.

I like the UN-ARC, its real fuckin NATO

And also 7.62x39 at the same time, somehow, so it can share ammo with the notAKM.
That was a really dumb design choice. I don't like it.

But the reactive enemies adapted to non-lethal methods too....

There's only one ending in MGSV, you can still S Rank missions even going nuclear, and Demon points is only a visual effect that changes nothing. What game are you thinking of, Dishonored? Dishonored only gives you the 'bad ending' if you become a mass murderer, not if you kill just a few people. The ending in it isn't even bad to begin with, and the game rewards you by giving you more enemies to kill.

So again, what game are you thinking of?

>Most game devs are now making """stealth""" games into glorified mass murder simulators instead
Im thankful desu senpai
That dumb pussy "dont kill ppl gals thats bad" needs to go. Murder is 10x more fun than ghost shit

It's not that they don't look like real guns or have real gun names, but the fact they are such ugly, bulgy, mixed up, retarded looking crap.

Shhhhh, let him have his retarded rant.

Yup, one of the ways MGSV amortizes the problem is making enemies adapt to either style. In that regard I've no complaints, the game stays challenging.

But other games, like Dishonored or Deus Ex HR, not so much

some designs are patented aren't they?

I think you guys are getting confused. I put 'bad ending' in there to group all the consequences most stealth games penalize a lethal run with. Dishonored for example makes the whole fucking town get massacred by a plague just because you killed a fraction of the people that are already dying.

Splinter Cell and Splinter Cell: Pandora Tomorrow are the only two games that did military stealth right. Prove me wrong.

What they should have done is make only lethal weapons available at the start, and nonlethals being specifically a found plans thing. Also make them expensive to supply. Even if you need to use a firearm in a situation, you can always kneecap the solider and fulton their ass.

It's a shame you can't deploy the bipod for some suppressing fire.

>Dishonored for example makes the whole fucking town get massacred by a plague just because you killed a fraction of the people that are already dying
But that's wrong you chucklefuck.

>series known for its gunporn shit
>end it with fake toy guns, chinese knock-off designs, and pipe weapons from fallout 4

You realize there are two high chaos endings, yes?
Also
>already dying
LMAO, maybe if you murder every weeper in the game, and even then I think you would be low chaos.

How?