Why did Mario jump so fluently into 3D, and why couldn't many else do the same?

Why did Mario jump so fluently into 3D, and why couldn't many else do the same?

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Sonic's gameplay is literally impossible to translate to 3D successfully as we have seen across every possible platform since the genesis

Mario games jumped fluently because they don't play the same as the 2D entries. 2D Mario games are linear obstacle courses, and 3D Mario are largely about doing various tasks and exploring large open 3D areas.

People weren't interested in translating 2D Mario gameplay or else Mario 64 would be nothing but Bowser levels, Rainbow Ride, and Tick Tock Clock (which are linear obstacle courses like you'd find in the 2D marios, galaxy, or 3D world)

because nintendo literally has the best game developers in the world

Maybe it could work if Sonic Team stopped changing their damn minds every game and actually refined something.

Mario 64's camera was shit, but camera controls hadn't been figured out and dual analogs didn't exist yet. It was a pretty good start for 3D games. Zelda also made a pretty good transition to 3D.

adventure 2 sonic/shadow game play was good what are you talking about

Sonic wasn't even good in 2d. You could barely see in front you so the only people that enjoyed it were the autismal ding dongs that got off on memorizing a level.

>HEY GUYS ITS A GAME ABOUT GOING FAST
>BUT YOU CAN ONLY GO FAST IF YOU'RE ON THE SPECTRUM

Great game design Sonic Team, way2go.

Some simply tried to make the jump because "going 3D" was the fad at the time, some did it, some had mixed results and some didn't survive.

This

>i'm so bad i can't beat sonic games without memorizing them

they are games for children, how shit are you?

"i-it's so hard to see! The game is cheating!"

arin pls

Anyone can beat a Sonic game, they're pretty easy.

But the platforming is awful and if you want to actually go fast you need to be on the spectrum, so IMHO it's pretty shit.

Sonic is about momentum and physics.

Sega couldn't make 3D sonic because nintendo beat them to it, it was called Mario 64

>Why did Mario jump so fluently into 3D
He didn't. Everything about Mario was changed to force him into a 3D space. Even ignoring the dimensional shift, Super Mario 64 plays NOTHING like Super Mario Bros., Super Mario Bros. 2, Super Mario Bros. 3, or Super Mario World in any sense. Even jumping was completely changed with the triple jump in SM64.

>what is Generations

Why do you think? It was all about control. Mario 64 had good controls and good camera movement. That sold people whereas tank controls in other games largely ruined them, turning otherwise fast-paced platformers into extremely slow walking tank sims.

Same reason why Half Life and Halo came out on top, they got controls right on consoles.

...

>But the platforming is awful and if you want to actually go fast you need to be on the spectrum

"T-this game is so fast! The obstacles too hard to avoid! The game is cheating!"

Literally you

the games are for children. stop running into enemies in a game for kids. How can you honestly say that the game is too hard for you and feel no shame for it?

>Getting better at something requires practice
Wow simply amazing. I legitimately hope you careen off of a highway you moron.

So triggered that I forgot to upload pic too

There's more linear 3D Marios than sandbox ones user

and 3D Mario are largely about doing various tasks and exploring large open 3D areas.

>WOW GUYS IM FINALLY GOING FAST
>have 1 frame to dodge anything
>must tediously memorize level like some sort of cheeze-it smelling autismal ding dong to have fun

At least they know their audience I guess.

Super Mario Bros. 2 doesn't really play like the other SMB games or SMW either.

>practicing
>in a fucking platformer

>have 1 frame to dodge anything

how fucking slow are you, honestly? it's a kid's game, we aren't talking fucking ninja gaiden or touhou or some shit.

Are you honestly telling me it's too hard for you to dodge enemies in a mascot platformer?

hmm and those are all the shitty ones really makes you think

...is this just a fancy version of "sonic was never good"

it isn't even fancy, it's "sonic was never good because i keep losing my rings".

Just play them widescreen you autist.
Sonic 1 and 2 are on android. You can plug a controller into your phone or I think get that running emulated on your PC or something.
Sonic CD is on Steam and I dont know what else.
I have no idea if there is a S3K one
And Mania is widescreen too.

early 3D systems had 1x speed CD-ROM drives and took for-fucking-ever to load

you couldn't have long elaborate courses without killing your audience with load times. slow gameplay, reusing the same levels over and over with different tasks, the things mario 64 perfected even though it wasnt even on cd, were really smart design choices to minimize the size of levels while still appearing expansive

crash bandicoot had to do all kinds of insane programming tricks to get long linear levels without much loading. sonic had to be slowed down

Miyamoto is a super autist about his games, and he (and Nintendo as a whole) was in his prime back then
Giving one of the best designers alive an entire new toolkit to work with (3d), along with an entire company to do his bidding, and hardware designed specifically for his games, Mario 64 and OoT were bound to be masterpieces

>t. sonic team

Ok yeah but now what do you DO with it? Because the guys who made it sure as fuck don't know what to do with it as far as turning it into an actual game.

youtube.com/watch?v=XBZgk8gJc6g

>level is nothing more than a straight line
>no branching paths
>awkward horizontal traversal
>camera not able to hold entire play field at once

This is actually a pretty good example of why sonic works better in 2D than in 3D. In 3D you just see so much less of the play field and sonic is capable of a lot less. There's so much stripped away from a 2D level, and the things that 3D adds (horizontal traversal and view distance) are awkward at best when applied to a character as speedy as Sonic.

Basically, Utopia is retard bait.

>you can hold forward and go fast in a single direction on totally linear tracks suspended in the air

Awesome, the Utopia guys have made it about as far as Sonic team. Because they sure as shit haven't made any levels that work with such an awkward character.

Name me a 3d platformer with tank controls please, genuinely curious.

>1 out of 4 linear 3D Marios is good
>2 out of 2 with a likely 3 out of 3 non linear Marios are good
makes my noggin go a joggin

>Sonic's gameplay is literally impossible to translate to 3D successfully
Only Sonic Team has ever tried, so what makes you say its impossible? Sonic Team is just incompetent. You better believe Nintendo could get it right in one or two tries.

just admit you suck at video games already

Rayman did fine

out of 4 linear 3D Marios is good

Are you fucking implying that either Galaxy or Galaxy 2 are not good?

Did you watch the webm? There is a lot more to it than holding forward as opposed to the actual published games.

i'm glad i was never stupid enough that the open world meme blinded me into thinking that sunshine was better than any of those linear games

the best parts of sunshine are the linear platforming sections and i know that even you know it

...

Just admit you're on the spectrum for enjoying Bop-It but with more "Gotta Go Fast" and shitty edgy cartoon character to appeal to the autistics.

The entire webm is holding forward with nothing stopping sonic, save for around 0:14 when he makes an extremely awkward momentum fueled turn that not only has all the precision of a boat (imagine if you had to do that to dodge something!), he damn near runs into off screen enemies because of how close the camera is.

Looks like typical 3D sonic problems to me.

Miyamoto spent years dicking around with 3D Mario, trying to get it to work on the SNES before giving up and essentially turning the N64 into a machine specificaly for the game, to the point that even the controller was designed with it in mind.

Most other devs didn't have the skill, time or funding to fully explore 3D platforming, so they worked around those limitations. Crash Bandicoot for example managed by making very narrow levels where 3D movement was available, but not to the point where alternate camera angles or control were necessary.

i never liked 2D sonic, but the draws were going fast and having multiple routes, no? it seems like all the 3D games are basically one path, if it had more you could change through fluidly, as well as maybe high and low roads like the 2D, it would probably be better than the linear shit they throw out

Anyone who doesn't think 3D World is one of the top 5 Mario games is not to be taken seriously.

>fuck you autist
not an argument

3D world feels as mundane to me as the NSMB series desu

>galaxy
>galaxy 2
>3d world
>3d land

>bad

>sunshine

>good

Take the nostalgia goggles off user

Galaxy__ is pretty mediocre desu

>Open end levels = Open world
retard
And its true, I admit the special stages are the best parts of sunshine. Shame every game afterwards was a massive step back

3D world is bargain bin tier my man

>3D series
>Good
>galaxy series
>Even touching SM64/Sunshine
nah

I'm not saying "fuck you" I'm just telling it's a game about obsessing over memorizing routes, the game is for trainspotters.

>And its true, I admit the special stages are the best parts of sunshine. Shame every game afterwards was a massive step back

Every other game was literally that. i'm sorry that you need to go play in giant fields instead of do actual platforming to feel like you got your money's worth.

and yes, open ended levels are open world. How aren't they? Open worlds are just open ended levels where you have a variety of objectives.

Sunshine was rushed garbage

Because Nintendo had talent on their team.

>literally impossible

Total fucking bullshit, 3D gives you the advantage of seeing what is ahead of you as you're going fast, while in 2D you have half a screen to react to what is coming. It's not fucking hard to create a fast-paced platformer, Sonic Team is just really incompetent when it comes to controls and level design. They had a good thing going with Sonic Adventure 1 and 2, just imagine if they had refined that formula for 16 years.

Keeping your speed up like in the webm requires pretty precise timing on the rolls actually. You should try it out it's pretty fun once you get the hang of it.

heh...heheheheh...haha....

*inhales deeply*

HHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

other games didn't get the opportunity to plagiarize the game systems of Croc

Something I wish people would realize when saying that "SONIC CAN NEVER WORK IN 3D" based on Sonic Team's efforts is that ST can't even get Sonic to work in 2D either.

youtube.com/watch?v=qzWmmUBmUAo

Look at this trash. It's not that Sonic can't work in 3D, it's just that its developers are incompetent and failures at game design.

see
In 2D you have less time to react to threats, but everything is on screen. In 3D you have more time to react to threats, but you can't see anything that isn't DIRECTLY IN A STRAIGHT LINE from sonic's perspective.

2D just works better for the character. I'd rather have to have fast reflexes in my speedy hedgehog game than feel like i'm driving a blind boat

>It was a pretty good start for 3D games.
A good start for 3D games, basically the peak of 3D platforming controls.

I wouldn't say that the game overall is the best 3D platformer, but Mario himself controls so fucking well. Amazing that they managed to do that on their first try.

You don't have a memorize routes to beat the game. This isn't IWBTG, Sonic's built in a way where it knows you're going to make mistakes and get hit. That's why rings fly everywhere and they're in great supply. Memorizing is only needed for speedrunning which applies to every game.

some kind of open-ish-world (as in several-big-ish sandboxes) game, you'd have momentum meter's and shit, though you can rev to catapult yourself.

Didn't Croc have tank controls?

Megaman Legends did, I know that.

Nintendo actually puts in effort in making sure game feels good.

Too bad no one hasn't caught up to that amazing innovation in the last 20 years.

You don't need to do heavy memorizing to be decent at the game. Though I see we have progressed. Hold right to win to a game that you cannot react to anything to just being a memorizer. What else will shit posters come up with when trying to shit post about classic Sonic.

Because Mario 64's development team spent so much time just working on Mario's movement. that was all they worked on before any other point of the game. They wanted the movement to be as good as can be. And it was!. Meanwhile Sega was too busy having a goddamn civil war to get anything proper done.

This is not true. Just because Sega and Sonic Team have been wildly incompetent does not mean that it is undoable. quality 3D Sonic fan made proof of concepts have been made over the years, such as Sonic Robo Blast 2 or Sonic Green Hill Paradise Act II

Mario 64 had years of effort put into it combined with a system and controller built around its gameplay and design

Whereas other developers molded their games around the system specs, the N64 was molded around Mario

yoshi/kirby could make the jump to 3rd person platformer but nintendo is too retarded for their own good

I don't think the jump was fluent. They completely changed the formula by making it about collecting as opposed to reaching the goal. Galaxy & Galaxy 2 are the best.

playtesting, quality assurance, and making sure it still feels like mario

>kirby could make the jump to 3rd person platformer

Yes. Competent level design mixed with good enemey placement could make for some interesting puzzle solving.

utopia is just a prototype to explore a different approach to how sonic could control, its not an attempt to be a full game

>Why did Mario jump so fluently into 3D
He didn't.

But Nintendo spent a large amount of time working out how to control Mario in a fun way, then put together everything (even up to the system and controller) to work around that. Mario 64 works well not because it tries to be Super Mario Bros. in 3D, but because it tries to be a 3D game involving jumping around to make progress. That's really the key component: they went back and built a 3D game around jumping as the main feature, as opposed to just taking a SMB stage and trying to turn it into a 3D game.

In reality, 3D Mario doesn't play very much like 2D Mario at all. SM3DW was perhaps the closest game to that, while SM64 was something completely different. It was about jumping up platforms and collecting stars, not an obstacle course race towards a flagpole.

because mario is 4 colors and people forgive any shortcomings because muh nostalgia

Why don't they just follow the same philosophy? The problem is they have no idea what to do, most just grab a base game and start building from there, removing some parts and adding others until it "works".

Mario didn't try to transition their current gameplay into 3d and just completely ditched everything for something that was inspired by the originals rather than just trying to recreate the original in a 3d space
It's good we never got 3d metroid until ganecube and never got the planned N64 earthbound because shit like that never would have worked back then

it's baffling how the narrative shifted into the complete opposite of what it was originally. I guess that's just the tides of gaming, sonic went from too easy to too hard in a generation.

Most developer companies don't have their teams of A+ grade developers anymore. They've gutted them and trimmed down until they just have the decent developers who can hash out a port or a remake. You need good developers who can look at a game, single out the core components, and turn them into something fun to do in 3D. Your B-brand developers are just going to be stuck with putting the standard moves onto a 3D model, throwing it into a 3D level, and maybe adding one or two new features and hoping for the best.

So it is more a talent issue, the 64 being built around Mario 64 has nothing to do with it being good, actually, that's a way riskier move that required actual talent, they could have completely fucked up the n64 if they didn't know what they were doing.

Shut the fuck up moron, the screen stuff is limitations of TVs at the time. Play the Christian Whitehead remakes of 1, 2 and CD or play Mania. That shit doesn't happen because the screen isn't in 4:3.

The spent like 4-5 years working ONLY on perfecting mario's contols. They started with a Super FX-fueled SNES demo that involved Mario chasing a rabbit around a room.
They moved that over to N64, and once they got the controls and movement down, spent maybe a year putting the world and courses together. I wish I could find the interview, but that basically explains why it turned out how it did.

I'd say that the n64 controller was fairly necessary to give proper 3D movement. Other console controllers were still using d-pads of various forms, and that would've been terrible trying to control a 3D Mario on one of those. (The octogod thumbstick gate also helped with aligning the player properly.)

Past that, the N64 was probably not necessary for Mario 64 being good. Hell, Crash Bandicoot was on the PS1 and worked just fine. You'll note that Crash Bandicoot, with it's 4-way directional pad, tended to have levels laid out where you only move in four directions, while Mario let you move more freely in SM64: a result of the octagon thumbstick gate.

I might argue that they did fuck up the N64 overall. It's cartridges and memory issues turned out to be a major hurdle, and it was primarily through Nintendo's first party lineup (and likely people buying N64s expecting another SNES) that made it as successful as it was.

Sega needs to release 1 & 2 on platforms people actually give a shit about instead of the normie phone audience. It's almost like they're ashamed to admit Taxman made a better version of their own games. 3&K didn't even get a remaster

Wait.,,that roll..

twitter.com/twitter/statuses/912738818591215617

Honestly they'll probably release 1 and 2 on Steam since Mania was so successful. They'll let Christian remaster S3K eventually.

>they'll probably release 1 and 2 on Steam
store.steampowered.com/app/71113/Sonic_The_Hedgehog/
store.steampowered.com/app/71163/Sonic_The_Hedgehog_2/
store.steampowered.com/app/71162/Sonic_3___Knuckles/

Sorry, I meant the remakes.

I don't see how they will do S3&K. I don't want the alternate PC music, I want the original music.