I don't understand why everyone wants the class system back, for Elder Scrolls...

I don't understand why everyone wants the class system back, for Elder Scrolls. People seem to think it gives the game more depth. I don't agree. In Elder Scrolls, the class system is not a "genuine" class system, but is just a template for the game's skill system. Skyrim, in my opinion, has a much more natural way of profession, that is, the skills you use actually determine your progression, and you gain perks reflecting that. Gaining skill perks is actually a far more immersive way of seeing your progression than the class system in Morrowind or Oblivion.

So I would like to see people's thoughts, on why you think a return to the class system would give Elder Scrolls more depth. I actually find it far easier to roleplay as a character with the perk system, because you start out as not having many skills but increase them with use. I think having an already established class makes it a bit harder to roleplay, since the game usually treats you as if you're totally new to whatever you're doing.

I prefer clasless RPGs overall.
But I don't really like TES

You need to guide the player's character development, do you really feel progression in oblivion and skyrim where everything scales to your level and your stats barely affect anything?

Also, classes in TES games aren't really that important, it's just a starting point. But when you talk about Skyrim's perks vs Morrowind's skills, both are bad, but if they had both (plus more important and varied skills), that would be great.

I disagree. I like that characters start with a handful of skills that they are somewhat competent in. Something they've been doing with their life, experimenting or mucking around with magicks.
If I wanted to roleplay a retired Imperial legionnaire, sure I don't have the gamebreaking expert level long blade skill from the get go, but at least I'm not totally, completely inept with a blade either.

Made a class system with a custom option.
70% of playthroughs went custom.

They dropped it because nobody used it because there was a better option.
They seem to be one of the few studios not married to the table top RPG model.
They are also one of the few that are successful.

I wonder if that is related?

The disappearance of classes isn't the problem.
The disappearance of skills from on game to another is.
Being "freed" from the class system doesn't really help if you indeed have less options on how to play the game.

Skyrim wasn't made for multiple playthroughs in mind, so it doesn't need a class system.

I believe most anons prefer focusing on replayability.
I would rather not have to do the same things over and over in order to enjoy a game to its fullest.

Playability trumps replayabilty for me
To each his own.

I like the system, but it needed more. More skills, and more perks. Also there's no reason why traits couldn't come back with a rework.

Normies don't like having to manage stats and RPG mechanics, who would have thought.

I enjoy the class' existence in Morrowind because every character in the game has one.

The Mage's guild isn't just wizards. It's Alchemists, Apothecaries, Summoners, Enchanters, Warlocks, and Witches. The Fighter's guild isn't just Warriors and Knights. It's Scouts, Barbarians, Drill Sargent, Archers, Rogues, and Witchhunters.

It's a great tool to add templated details to characters as a backstory element. So that even though a set of characters are affiliated or working together they're not all a homogeneous blob defined only by their current active game role like the Companions in Skyrim are.

>Normies
Dumb frogposter with zero self-awareness.

Spreadsheets are for accountants not games.

OP here, that's a good point, I didn't consider that. It's reallly cool how every other character has a class. It was just hard for me to roleplay in Morrowind. Your characters starts out as a prisoner in the imperial city, so you kind of have to fill in the blanks for how they got there. And why someone skilled at their class would seem to have little skills coming in. Why would a Spellsword, for instance, be in the prison, and why at first would they barely be capable of hitting mudcrabs? I would prefer it if you could start out as say, a commoner

>Classes in tes games aren't really that important it's just a starting point.
That's how i always felt about them. Its irrelevant in the long run.

if you actually played morrowind you would know that you have almost no difficulty in combat from the start of the game if you are using the weapon you specced in. The missing meme comes from people just using the starting dagger when they picked another weapon skill.

>barely hitting mudcrabs

did you not give them long blade as a starting skill or something and wonder how they arent hitting mud crabs?

I don't know, I mean, if you start out as a mage, still feels like your spells aren't terribly effective against average enemies.

This is an excellent point.
Good for NPCs, just a starting point for players

>I would rather not have to do the same things over and over in order to enjoy a game to its fullest.

You're not doing the same things over and over again, you're doing them in a different way. That's the point.
If you casualize your game so that people can do more things in a single playthrough you end up with idiotic things like an orc warrior becoming the archmage and head of the thieves guild.
You're downgrading the RPG experience for an almost non-existent plus, which is being able to do everything in one playthrough.

Fight a mudcrab
MISS
MISS
MISS

Get disgusted and throw sword on the ground

It Misses.

I don't think you know how to play the game

I can make a character RIGHT NOW and hit a mudcrab 8 out of 10 times

It imposes structure and identity onto an otherwise freeform system which is something I really enjoy. And being a roleplaying game, identity is incredibly important.

Because Morrowind uses a form of vancian casting where you need to rest or drink magicka potions to be able to cast spells. If you use potions then you're perfectly effective for your level.

If you are a pure mage, why wouldn't you be hitting it with fire tough or something?
If you are a Spell Sword, take conjuration, put points in longsword, summon yourself a Daedric longsword, and beat the shit out of everything.

>everything scales to your level and your stats barely affect anything
That has nothing to do with classes, you dummy. Those are flaws on Bethesda's part for thinking level scaling (or at least, that blatant amount of level scaling) was a good idea.

Visiting the same towns doing the same quests with slight variations is not my cup of tea.
If you like it good on you.
I think it is a less than stellar idea.

It is one of the reasons I prefer Bethesda games to most others.
I still play other companies games but look forward to a Bethesda release.

Deride me if you must.
I like what I like.

> Make a joke
> Morrowindfags go into pavlovian response number1872.

Take a breath you joyless fucks.

Agreed.
Honestly when skyrim 2 comes out they should just replace the schools of magic with the "magic" stat.
Weapons should be tied by the stamina stat.
And armor should all be tied to the health stat.
It's dumb that if I'm playing a warrior I can't use a new hammer just because I've been swinging a big sword the whole time when you do the same things for both.

>but is just a template for the game's skill system
This observation is totally on point. However the class system in MW/OB is even more. It is actually part of the game mechanics, since picking major/minor skills decides which skill will level you up. This allows you to "game the system" itself adding a layer of complexity. I am not saying it is good to have it and it probably should be replaced by something different, but Skryrim flat out removed it and did not offer a replacement. Overall it took away much of the "number crunching", which an RPG in some peoples opinion should have.

I just want the SPECIAL system back

>I'm just pretending to be retarded

I'm sorry, I thought we were discussing game mechanics.
Maybe if you tell a funny joke next time (one that isn't indistinguishable from a stale meme) you will get a better reaction next time.

Your post has been logged to our database

Not him, but
>Get disgusted and throw sword on the ground

>It Misses.

Made it pretty obvious he was building up to that punchline.

People fell for the no class system for a while because it sounded like a kind of freedom for the player. What ensued were games where there was no distinction between characters and all players had the same experience of picking the same set of OP as fuck skills with exception to the dire hard roleplay nerds

Established classes bring a distinction and set of rules that bring structure and replayability.

>Deride me if you must.

I would if at any point you decided to come up with an argument other than
>but I like it that way

Your posts are so inoffensive they're offending me.

It wasn't really a punchline and lots of people bad at video games or speed readers don't know how to make characters in Morrowind

It's a done to death argument that can be disproven by saying you're bad, or discarded by saying you're trolling.

Given your instantaneous meme response, I'll go with the latter. (you)

The problem with classless RPGs is that at some point you become good at everything, which can break immersion for hardcore gamers.

But I don't think they will ever return as AAA titles because your average Skyrim normie doesn't have the attention span to read up and plan out an approximate stat build, and Skyrim normies are the target audience for most RPG developers now.

Unless I missed something huge and you can throw weapons in Morrowind, it was a punchline.
Now I'm not defending the joke, because it was pretty garbage, but I can see what he was going for.

>Why would a Spellsword, for instance, be in the prison,
This is where you think for yourself a little bit.
You can say your character was rightfully or wrongfully imprisoned. You could say it was all by mere chance that your character was wrongfully imprisoned and met the criteria of the prophecy.
In terms of lore, you are always prophesied to serve Tamriel as some Champion, typically a Champion of Akatosh.
Whether or not the Champions have been wrongdoers, they must be at just the right place and time during a crisis, because chaos is the game of the Daedra (generally antagonist), and Order is the way of the Mortal Plane. Whenever Chaos threatens the Mortal Plane, Akatosh must intervene by presenting a Champion, who has the potential, not the destiny, -because, when chaos, reigns, there is no destiny - to restore order to Tamriel.
Akatosh works in mysterious ways. He could certainly put a potential (and capable) Nerevarine before Uriel's attention, or introduce a mix up by having a prisoner placed in the wrong cell at the right time (Champion of Cyrodiil). He is, after all, Aedra, and his presence on Mundus is felt far more tangibly in other ways such as dragons, being dragonborn, the dragonfire, or blessings.

The biggest flaw with Morrowind is its fans.
Think of yourselves as ambassadors and try to draw people in.
At this point it is a tie between Morrowindfags and CDRejekts for the most antagonistic fans.

Choosing your class at the start is more of a declaration of intent or ambition. The assumption is that you were a chump before adventure called and put you in a situation that forced you into action.

Perfect RPG would be similar to older AD&D 2 pc titles, where you can put as many points in skills as you want, sure it brakes the game, but making a character in any other rpg isn't very realistic, choosing between 9 str and 9 int makes no sense if you have a perfect character to roleplay in your mind.

No the biggest flaw is the stealing system. Fuck out of here

arena had a class system
that's what makes it a better game than daggerfall

>Think of yourselves as ambassadors and try to draw people in.

Why the fuck would anyone give the slightest of fucks to draw people in?

I believe my "I do not like doing the same thing over and over again" was a valid point of contention.

If it will help I will call you a name (I don't have any reason too as you seem like a nice person) to help heat this up a bit.

To be directed to the creator of post #392678169 on Sup Forums's Sup Forums - Video Games board:

nigga why would you ever let the fans of a game influence your opinion on it

I'm no normie but those are horrible systems.
Only retards who think they're super smart and great pretend to like them.

More people means new opinions and discussion.
Unless you are content with having the same thread with the same arguments by the same posters for the last 15 years.

I liked games like Baldur's Gate when they were released...because that's all there was. Fuck me if I don't want to have to micro-manage parties anymore.

He clearly wasnt boy.

for me classes also represent areas where your characters are NOT PRofiecient, it's a way of setting out your limitations. Your pure wizard with all hist points dumped in mana and spells shouldn't be able to be effective with a sword, vice versa for the pure warrior and the spellsword falls between them. In Skyrim your character has no character, nothing is stopping you from being an omnipotent master of all

It's fuckin stupid because you have to spoil your shit up and read a guide for 3 hours straight just to figure out what skills to pic kadn what not to pick so you dont miss out on some shit way later on in the game instead of working up to it.

If you work on it you can be good at many things.
Thing is are you willing to spend all that time.

How does it ensure there is no distinction between the players, a person who levels a puts perks into magic skills is completely different to someone who focuses on archery or melee or stealth.

You can't be good at everything in skyrim because of perks, through normal play you only get so many perk points to distribute.

The Ordinator Perk Overhaul mod is a good example of the direction Bethesda should be going for in TES 6 in terms the perk system, but we all know they're just going to keep dumbing down the game instead.

It wont come back

The audience went from roleplayers that make multiple saves to normies that play one save for 300hrs and get a character to lv80 with zero specialisation

I'm not sure any of the TES games got the progression system quite right. Each game has its own unique way of doing this, and each has its pros and cons. Morrowind's progression system is enhanced by a mod called Galsiah's Character Development Lean. Oblivion's system is improved by a mod called SD Skill Diary.

But I think what is lacking in all of the games is a real depth to the progression system. Skyrim's perk trees are nice but there needed to be more depth to progression than perk trees. First of all, there should have been many, many more skills in the perk tree system. Then, there needed to be much, much more inter-connectivity among the skill trees. Example: You cannot add perks into Illusion any further until you raise Sneak above a certain threshold (This mechanic could be made much more interesting by adding many, many more skills). Skills+Perks needed to be merely one facet to progression. The actual skills a player develops should produce an effect on another tier of development. For example, a player gains a certain level of skill points in Illusion and Alteration. Those skills and their levels add up to a player achieving the role of Wizard which now unlocks a set of special Wizard perks. Then that player builds up One-Handed and Blocking. Now that player has become a BattleWizard. And so forth. All the while, there is yet another tier of progression, let's call it Alignment, and it is affected by actions the player does in the world. The player is now working towards an Evil BattleWizard, unlocking further special perks.

All in an effort to allow the player to play as he wishes to, as naturally as he does, and the game should act like a judge of that players style of gameplay, and not act like a carrot on the end of a stick luring the player around by the nose.

It wasn't lack of classes that sucked, I think everyone agrees Oblivion's leveling system was fucking awful. It was removing attributes that sucked, and the dumbing down of skills.

Fallout 4 made it even worse. The next Bethesda game will only have 3 stats, Combat, Sneak, and Magic.

>we all know they're just going to keep dumbing down the game

I'm afraid you are probably right, but I desperately hope Bethesda does the complete opposite and really makes a massive world with an enormous number of skills, professions, alignments, perks, spells, and so forth. That kind of game can be suited to the dumbest casual console player and the most devoted and ambitious PC gamer.

With the kind of computing power and storage we have now, there's no reason why the world in TES VI shouldn't be enormous in square footage, in storyline, in quests, in player development possibilities, and in gameplay elements and mechanics. There should be no two playthroughs exactly the same. A player wants to become a Grand Evil BattleMage? He should be able to go about that, or it should just sort of happen on its own based on how the player plays, or the player could choose to go to a school where he will be taught until he achieves that, and all of those things at the same time in one game.

>on why you think a return to the class system would give Elder Scrolls more depth
Just add an improved Daggerfall system.

am i the only one who thinks RPGs (video games no Tabletops) are retarded? i mean why have leveling systems at all? players should rely on their own skills to get better at the game not some artificial "skills" or "stats" or any of that shit.

>game just gets harder the more you level up
>the rewards you earned now and devalued as you level up
The fuck's the point. Bethesda are masters of shitty game design.
Employees actually manually created multiple versions of a single item and then scripted them to be rewarded separately by player level, and nobody thought "this is fucking lame"

Because then that's not an RPG.
RPG is defined by role playing. You are roleplaying a hobo with no skills.
If you wanted all capabilities unlocked from the start, you're not roleplaying, you're just playing some action game or some shit.

>They made multiple copies of a ring that just gives you water breathing on every version

Bethesda employees are fucking robots. I can't believe they made Morrowind.

Some of us aren't total autists.

They did the same to water walking.

Classes didn't work with the skill system alone, but more class-exclusive perks/feats/traits that get stronger as you progress would go a long way towards fleshing out the system. Custom classes could have access to a pool of weaker feats they could buy, if you want to accommodate them.

Perks should just stay tied to skills. What is a class in a literal sense? It's a very metagame concept.

Depends on how well it's integrated into the setting/narrative. Players who roll Thieves should have some sort of inherent affinity for thieving that other classes don't. Implementing relatively modest perks (like more durable lockpicks or lighter loot) alongside scenes that acknowledge your class go much further to acknowledging your character's tangible history as a thief than a classless system ever could.

My big problem with Skyrim's classless system is that it effectively prevents you from making a meaningful backstory for your character. You might pretend to have started as a thief, but there's nothing in the game that recognizes this.

It's a well known fact that in Skyrim, you roleplay the Dragonborn, and nothing else.

>play Skyrim
>accidentally level up noncombat skill by reading a book
>can't play legendary anymore

>skyrim 2
Is this a meme?

What are minigames.
You're shit at the lockpicking one but good at the cooking one.
Role playing enough for you?

>Its a children defend Bethesda taking serviceable features and replacing them with inferior ones episode

Enjoy being played like a fool as the drool drips from your mouth and smashes onto your controller with such force to confirm your 27th instance of picking a +5% damage from the "combat" perk tree like the no standards mongoloid you are.

In a single player game, it's up to you to maintain your character, and just having skills let's you do it however you want. New Vegas was a good example of how to do it.

>a word with a number next to it is now a spreadsheet

>talking shit about eve

>say something factually incorrect on a discussion board.
>posters respond to you by giving you correct information

WOW CALM DOWN HOTHEADS IT WAS JUST A JOKE!!

>Players who roll Thieves should have some sort of inherent affinity for thieving that other classes don't

Daggerfall's advantage/disadvantage system was exactly this, but it removed because faggot metagamers whined about MUH EXXXXXPEEEEEE

Why does Chess have rules? I can just reach over and knock all my opponents pieces off the board, that should be the aim of the game.

>pick hardest difficulty level in rpg
>forced to min max combat skills and cant roleplay

Just play on normal or hard, that way you can pick what's fun and interesting instead of what's the best.

>first playthrough
>get to riften and learn about pickpocketing
>rob everyone until pickpocket is now mid 70s and everything else is base
>combat is now too hard
T-thanks

Skyrim's leveling is pure min/max, there is no fun to be had

People reee'd about Oblivion needing a combat skill at Master before level 20 but it's way worse in Skyrim, you level noncombat up at all before combat then you are just gimping yourself

Except for the part where enchanting, alchemy, and smithing are a bigger part of your damage than your combat skill because of how busted they are.

Just pickpocket your enemy's weapons away.

>enchant before combat 100
>don't have soulgems or special enchantments, get fucked

>alchemy or blacksmith before combat 100
>don't have right ingredients/materials to make potions or armor, get fucked

>go try to find said enchantments/ingredients/materials
>either they don't exist in the world because you aren't a high enough level, or haha whoops looks like you just leveled up noncombat, get fucked

>Why would a Spellsword, for instance, be in the prison
Perhaps the Gods have placed you here so that we may meet. As for what you have done... it does not matter. That is not what you will be remembered for.

Just turn down the difficulty slider. It's why it's there.

And I know lad you told me to play on Normal, but I'm not playing on baby mode. I know this makes me sound like a huge fag but I enjoy tension in my games, but when that tension comes from me fighting the games mechanics I just get frustrated and detached from the game. It's like their entire leveling system was designed to cater to metagamers who actually do pick up every item they can and make potions that increase carry weight by 50000 so they can fast travel to town to sell it.

People always rag on about games like Fallout 1 not being forgiving enough for making mistakes with player build, but you can easily run past the rats in the first cave and then come back with all 4 companions, power armor, and a minigun and massacre the little fuckers. Skyrim I'm struggling to defeat the common bandit because a few books I picked up were skills I don't use, and wailing on the fucker until he drops will just make the next guy even stronger.

Wow dude your autism needs some fucking checking. Bethesda's "difficulty" setting is just a "how tedious you want this to be senpai" slider.
Normal mode is normal damage. It's what Bethesda's pea-brained team built the game around.
"Master" mode is just a hasty adjustment to damage values. It's an afterthought. It's worthless.
I'm not arguing that Elder Scrolls is a shit game, because it just is, but if you're gonna play the fucking thing and bitch that master mode is tedious as all fuck, then stop playing it on master. Nobody cares and neither should you. I understand if the game actually made an effort in their hard mode. But Elder Scroll's is just artificial difficulty, through and through. If you wanna play that shit then you can eat my ass, because you are fucking weak. Too weak to pass on that garbage.
Restraint. Control. Discipline. Learn these qualities, you huge fag.

AH YES!

wew, touched a nerve did I?

I played Skyrim for 20-30 something hours back in 2011 and dropped it since, it was just my input. Nothing wrong with wanting an RPG to have proper leveling, balancing, and so forth is there?

You're right, it didn't make you sound like a huge fag. It exposed you as the huge fag you are.

Now that's just being rude