DIFFICULTY vs FORGIVENESS

Which quadrant do you like best? Why? How do difficulty and forgiveness correspond to each other?

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>Kaizo Mario not in try try try again core

Whoever made this chart is a fuking retard.

You're the one who decided to use save states. They aren't part of the game.

Yellow one, the closer to the center the better. Them being so far apart from eachothers ultimately makes an awkward gimmick that will get boring after a certain amount of time like it stated on the picture like dying to an easy mistake while playing minecraft casually while not giving full attention to it because it's not the kind of game or doing the exact same screen over and over again at super meat boy that you start to wish the levels were longer without being that hard as you progress through the game and get bored by the gimmick.

Yellow with an option for middle red/purple

Yellow / blue
I think Shovel Knight got it 100% right.

>blue
I hope you're not trying to become a pilot, user...

On the line of red and purple.

I like a lot of challenge, and some consequences, but not so unforgiving that I become unmotivated.

no but repeating levels over and over again until you know how they work is.

also none of these games are hard lmao

Barely difficult with outrages unforgiveness is the shittiest design but high difficulty with high forgiveness is addictive as fuck, Hotline Miami mastered this

why the fuck are quadrant ii and quadrant iii so similar in color

>394325928
they're not, you're color blind user

enchroma.com/test/instructions/

Which Ninja Gaiden? The 2D platformers or 3D?

>Minecraft harder than Fire Emblem

>super mario bros/zelda less forgiving than shovel knight

Just what

If the ultimate goal in Minecraft is to reach the dragon realm or whatever, I'd say that's accurate

>mfw im cakewalk core

Yeah
You have to start the level over in the Mario, you don't in Shovel Knight

I can't really get into platformers, never have.
I mean I like them but can't spend more than an hour or 2, and that's stretching it.

>Shovel knight in the middle of difficulty
I haven't played it since launch. Did all the updates make it harder?

Just finished Cuphead, I would say that the forgiveness is in fact that High, because you don't die directly when you fall off of the stage.
Also Hp+2 is easy mode.

...

Difficulty is racist, go back to

I made this gif myself and it took me like 45 minutes, it's the first and only gif I've ever made, I hope you like it because I'm gonna get banned for it.

Worth

t-thanks, Doctor Knight

...

Plague Knight is harder to control but he kills shit fast so if you can get a hang of his movement he's an upgrade over Shovel. Specter Knight's hard mode is actually pretty challenging though, it combines your health and weapon energy together and puts a constant slow drain on it, but you regain health/energy by killing enemies, so you have to sprint through the level and conserve your special weapons. Specter Knight's campaign is great in general, it's almost a completely different game with shit like levels and boss fights being redone from the ground up, I'd load up the game again to try it if I were you.

Shovel Knight's pretty middle-of-the-road in terms of difficulty

Been playing NES games as i have never done it before and i realised the "classics" are among the most forgiving, megaman was pretty easy as you didnt loose all your progress with deaths, worst case just retry the stage, the one i really found unforgiving because of it's mechanics was Castlevania, between awful whipping and the whipping upgrade mechanic it meant if you died your chances were even lower the next time

Hollow Knight is too high
It's not like money matters and steel soul isn't the regular game

I like all of them but cakewalk tier, but I think I gravitate towards try-try again
Playing (actual) RLs, I use a 'copy save file every 2 hours' system, and just play like I'm not a head-first, babymode savescumming bitch.

*too low

Add Xcom EU long war to bottommost right

Need to put moviegames

Probably red quadrant, as long as there is not too much backtracking

Even cakewalk-tier has its merits. I like the Warioland games and sometimes you just need to boot up an EDF 4.1 level on easy and fuck up some ants

No one report him, this lad's alright.

Thanks doc

Purple is best. Fun for speedrunning too.

This but unironically

That's a pretty interesting chart OP, did you do it yourself?
Not even being sarcastic, I think its a decent way to see things, and Sup Forums would be better with more posters like you.
faggot

If you're actually speedrunning and you have some skill, the game's forgiveness doesn't affect you at all. You're placing a constraint on yourself that bypasses any in-game consequences and replaces it with "if I make a mistake, I start over"

The purple and red quadrants are effectively the same for talented speedrunners

they aren't exactly quadrants if you cut the center out as a fifth section, now are they? they quintrants or pentrants

Yes! Other anons helped me refine it and adjusted the example placements in the last thread
I like doing shit like this with you guys, it's arguably pointless but still pretty interesting

You taking suggestions for more games?
I had an idea for a similar chart, but since I'm a lazy son of a bitch I never got around to doing it.

Yeah absolutely, so long as they're recognizable enough to warrant being added

Try-try-again is the best because it challenges you without making you repeat the same sections over and over again.

Easy-but-don't-fuck-up is the worst because the game doesn't require your full attention to play, but you get punished if you get distracted, so your main obstacle is your own boredom.

Kirby should be further to the left than NSMB

Yeah you have a point. Gitting gud at the game makes the transition to speedrunning really easy is what I shoulda said.

Good point, that was bugging me too

crazy theory coming through:
games with no failure-state (puzzlers, graphical adventures, simulators) belong in an even higher category of "infinite forgiveness"

yoshi's new island(muted) is up there by warioland, with sound on it's as far to the right as possible

>HHHEEEYYYYYYNNNNNGGGGGG

kino

I find Megaman games to be quite forgiving. Especially compared to other games around it. Hell it's no less forgiving than cuphead.

I don't see much point in discussing this based on this quadrant thing.

It's a lot more dependent on just WHAT kinda game it is that you're playin. If it's an action game, it needs to be unforgiving. Time limits, limitations to how you control and move that's congruous with enemy placement and level design to give the game a sense of difficulty. On the other hand, you don't want an open world exploration game to be unforgiving where a small mistake can make you lose a shit ton of progress or put you in a place that makes it difficult to get back to where you were. Or, maybe you DO, who knows! There's a lot of variables in play. And you need to have some give and take, too. Like, in the original Sonic games, for instance. If you wanted to beat each act fast and score a lot of points AND not get hit where you lose over 200 rings? That can potentially be pretty hard. BUT, the game is also very easy because as long as you have just one ring, you can't die. You can get hit twenty times and still not die if you still can get a ring back.

It gives you a good idea of what will be demanded of you and how high the stakes will be in your game

Where would monster hunter be?

Average and purple are god tier.

cakewalk at the beggining, at the end, its pretty fucking insane in difficulty and you lose 15-20 minutes of progress, plus resources you spent, so I'd say tough as nails.

Fire Emblem is pretty easy because it's balanced around the idea that people will sperg out and reset if even one unit dies, and thus in most games it's fairly difficult for that to even happen unless you fuck up.

If you're just trying to get through it, it's even easier because most games give you ridiculously broken units like Ryoma, Seth, Ike/Titania, Dieck/Milady, FE11 Wolf/Sedgar, FE2 Alm/Catria, etc.

green or peach if I want to relax
yellow or blue if I want to play for real
red just makes me want to punch my monitor

How do I start playing red quadrant games? What's a good intro?

Xcom

>dark souls III more forgiving than I
>lose hp on death in DaS III while you literally only lose souls in I
into the trash it goes

dark souls fans are so fucking delusional

>lose hp on death in DaS III
What on Earth are you talking about, man?

Fire Emblem is shit anyway. Tactical Orge is where the real deal at.

your max hp does not change in at all DaS
in Dark Souls 3 if you die your max hp is 3/4 of what it is when you are human (use an ember)
Dark Souls is the only game that doesn't have a "hp decreases when you die" mechanic in the souls series

That's only losing an effect from a consumable you chose to fucking use. I didn't use embers at all in my playthrough. And literally all it's doing is bringing you down from a power-up that makes the game easier down to the level Dark Souls was already at

>cuphead is unforgiving, despite having three health and not setting you back nearly as much as games directly below it after three hits like Megaman
>Super meat boy is unforgiving, despite pioneering the "literally throw bodies at it until it works" gameplay style
>XCOM: EU and Fire Emblem are forgiving, despite having permanent character deaths
You're fucking retarded.

meanwhile in dark souls your hp is maximum the whole time... make some sense user

so every fucking game ever basically?

Holy fucking shit bro
You have the same amount of HP in both games, in one you just have a consumable that boosts it even further. When you use it, you are consciously risking the consumable because you know you will lose it when you die, and they aren't infinite

Your argument is tantamount to going to a roulette table, losing it, and screaming "THIS IS THE MOST UNFORGIVING GAME EVER MADE"

YOU made the game unforgiving

*going to a roulette table, betting your life savings on a single spin, losing it,

>lose nothing on death
>lose max hp on death
>first one is less forgiving
your logic user

XCOM and FE are unforgiving. You're reading the chart wrong, retard

You forgot the part where both times you started off in the same place, but then in one scenario said "I'm going to use this temporary power-up to make the game easier" and consumed it

lmao lad

>lose nothing on death
>lose something on death
>first one is less forgiving
are kids seriously this stupid nowadays?

>have 100% HP for the entire game
>have 100% HP base, plus a consumable that makes it 125%, but go back to 100% if you die
>second one is less forgiving
literally your logic
i'm not even the guy you were talking to, and i've never even played a souls game in my life, but even i know you're full of shit

yes? are you stupid or something

>be given nothing
>be given something but there's also the possibility you could lose it and have nothing again
>second one is least forgiving
YOU'RE SMART, DUDE

oh, you're just baiting
okay
6/10, made me reply

sorry you got destroyed by logic
try using it sometimes instead of raging and typing in all caps

>You're fucking retarded.
Can you read English? I wouldn't normally ask that to someone who types out an entire post in English, but I'm really confused as to how you can misinterpret the forgiveness plane so much. Not just so much, actually. You've got it completely backwards. It's the exact opposite of what you think it is. So you either have trouble with reading or simple graphs. Which one is it?

You're retarded
(You)

don't reply to that fag, he's baiting

please tell me how losing nothing on death is less forgiving than losing max hp on death

>tfw almost replied to the retard.

@394339921
i am intentionally botching this quote link to your post so that your 4chanx extension does not do the thing where it says (you) after the post number
treat this like a "downvote" of your post

I'm sorry you all had to see how long he strung me along for

>thread seems interesting
>some retard shits it up and ruins it
errytime

nice argument

@394340217
i am doing this again
i want you to know how bad i think your posts are by doing this

nice argument

@394340302
i will continue to do this until you either get bored and drop the discussion, or until this thread is archived

>Shovel Knight's pretty middle-of-the-road in terms of difficulty
While I can't speak for the game in its current state, the game I played at launch was piss easy. I am not good at videogames, I struggled to get through classic Sonic games. But I can safely say I did not die once in shovel knight.

im sorry you're so mad your graph is shit user