What went wrong?

What went wrong?

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jumped into moba

Instead of learning from the mistakes they did in DoW2, they doubled down on them.

>50% of DoW players prefer DoW 1 gameplay
>50% of DoW players prefer DoW 2 gameplay
>let's do something totally different and as simple and boring as possible
>it's shit

i'm still mad

And what mistakes was it that DoW2 did?

Has this game even been released?

>mobashit

>Let's take our game that sold like crazy because people like big battles and make the battles smaller, because obviously that's what people like now.

E-sports and market research killed this series.

Sega wanted it dead so they just took THQ's DoW3 assets and finished them.
THQ had already murdered the series with what they had planned to do, and now Sega can throw Relic in with the TW:WH guys on projects they can smooth out.

Genre change so they can get the moba audience.

>DoW2
>Moba
League of Legends wasen't even out yet so MOBA wasen't that big yet.

...

>League started MOBAs
I'm trying not to laugh.

Call it whatever you want. They changed the genre for the worse and alienated the people who liked the first game.
They did the same for DoW3.

>You know what RTS players like? MOBAS!

Certainly DOTA was a thing that existed, but it wasen't until League that the moba scene truly exploded.
>Call it whatever you want
A tactical role playing game?

...

Didn't DoW III only have three fucking starting factions? How many did DoW I and DoW II have at the start not counting the expansions?

Yeah, call it whatever you want. The point is that DoW2 was shit and DoW3 is even more shit.

League is literally a half baked attempt to copy WC3 Dota, which in turn took ideas from BW Hero Battle maps. League just shit itself out faster than Dota 2 since Valve and Blizzard were squabbling a bit over names after the former beat Riot to a pulp.
4 Each. DoW1 had Chaos (Which admittedly seemed to use numerous SM assets but with spikes, which makes sense), and DoW2 has Nids.

It's this harsh, stupid and arrogant "criticism" why nobody gives a crap about this site.

-Relic Dev

>all legitimate criticism
>ooh someone said an f-word, this invalidates everything said

What the fuck are you smoking?
Everyone and their mother is complaining about too many units in DoW3, not the other way around.

community.dawnofwar.com/discussion/15198/spam-of-units-becomes-more-acute

The real problem was the game fixed problems people didn't want fixed. "It sucks, but I like the way it sucks" kind of way.

Answer this, why did you switch genres to something your core audience hates, that also has a very over-saturated market?

>too many units in DoW3
because they made the game that defied RTS genre in the first place ?

Because the RTS audience is toxic and eiltest and this thread proves it. Also what games have you made recently, huh?

>complaining about too many units
>in DoW3

what are these lies?

Relic Entertainment didn't make Starcraft or the Command & Conquer games

>they're incharge of Age of Empires 4
It's doomed

I'm very sorry, I didn't know DoW 1 was moba

Nah, they made a game, in their usual fare, trying to correct the design flaws of RTS that make so many people playing them incapable of learning to play them properly. The main guy even took many suggestions from Wayward Strategists and other armchair RTS designers online.

In the end, most of the shit added was added to make sure shitters would stand a chance. Shitters still got destroyed and cried foul because they were not allowed to play their segregated safe space skirmishes against the AI. This, above all else, is what berried the game, IMO.

To me it looked like they tried to imitate a moba too much. Completely put me off from even trying the game.

I played the game during the free weekend.
I really disliked the time-gated hero mechanic; They should have made it so that heroes actually cost ressources, so that there is actuallly an incentive to fight around the hero point ressource spot instead of
>you get your useless piece of shit bot one minute earlier than the opponent
the time mechanic reminds me of overwatch ults desu

Dawn of War 2 taught me to avoid Relic games at launch. I loved the game but for the love of God they couldn't balance it worth shit.
Bad reception to the beta and not having any of my favourite factions (Chaos, Imperial Guard, Dark Eldar) pretty much sealed the deal.

I would have given it a shot during the free weekend but I ain't downloading a 30gb game just to see how bad it is.

What a stupid argument

>I really disliked the time-gated hero mechanic

It's pulled out pretty much directly from WC3. The removed resource requirements are simply because there are no creeps to farm, nor farms to build, which are the actions you'd take after you poured resources into a hero in WC3.

maybe they should have kept these mechanics then, would've made the game more fun.

I'll never understand the evolution of the DoW series. I mean, like, shit- the first game and it's expansions nailed the game perfectly. DoW 2 was, for some reason, a bizarre hero-based game, and it fucking SUCKED. Instead of something reasonable or fun like CoH or whatever other relic properties, they just made an unholy mix between 1's fun and interesting traditional RTS elements, and 2's weird shitty top-down hero game. Add in an esports attempt, and it turned into a clusterfuck.

They honestly could've just made reskins of DoW 1 with more/better assets and units, and everyone would've loved the goddamn series. 40k works itself really damn well to RTSes- and not so much for anything else.

>Creeping and leveling.
>In a game that is already heralded as the spawn of Satan because it's supposedly a MOBA.

They dug their own graves with this game.
Doing that would have practically been jumping into them instead of waiting for the community to shove them in.

>when every rts becomes tiberian twilight

You are probably just a code monkey
You havent made a game either just like a farmer isnt a chef

Talk to me when you actually have a say on the development

Moba of war.

I think the RTS audience is generally douchey
But more importantly high $$$ games inadvertently sell well to both genders (not to be confused with pandering)
I.e
Sims and/or lel

No fucking way do I see a Jane doe seeing the fun of c&c or dow

All people wanted was Dark Crusade with better graphics

>They honestly could've just made reskins of DoW 1 with more/better assets and units

That's the root of the issue and the main reason why they never did so.
They kept DoW alive for a long time. Far too long, in fact.
The game has a massive amount of resources behind it, crapload of races, boatloads of units, over a hundred maps AND tons of gigantic mods on top of it all.

If they made a simple copy of DoW1, it would get panned just as heavily for having no content whatsoever in comparison. DoW3 has more content than both DoW1 vanilla and DoW2 vanilla, and the "lack" of content was one of the more prominent issues voiced by the community.
A straight copy would get torn to shreds on the account of content alone. And while both DoW2 and DoW3 both had some premise to go into the future as providing something different but still fun, a clone of DoW1 would only be that game which will take one $60 game + 3 $60 expansion packs to get back on par with the original which everyone already plays modded with only God knows how much more content.

They should have stopped at Winter Assault. One expansion is perfect for an RTS game.
Then they would have been able to make Necrons and Tau the selling point of DoW2.
Et cetera. You get where I'm going with this.

>DoW3 has more content than both DoW1 vanilla and DoW2 vanilla
Both games had 4 races instead of 3.

It looks like shit. Look how much Total War: Warhammer nailed the look of the fantasy setting. By comparison everything in in DoW3 looks like glossy plastic.

>DOW I comes out, pretty good arcadey rts
>DOW II comes out, alienates DOW I fanbase with no base building, smaller scale of battles etc
>DOW III comes out, alienates DOW II fanbase by going for a more arcadey moba style of gameplay

Dawn of War just doesn't know what type of game it wants to be

>one expansion is perfect for a game
Fuck you I would buy a new expansion for red alert 2 at 30-40$ today if it were released
Some games have timeless visuals and gameplay

40K is about having huge armies of spess mehreens tearing and ripping infinite armies of xenos apart
The limited army size of DoW1 could be comprehended as at that time such type of games wasn't developed that much and pcs were weaker but making it even smaller was a huge letdown.
I don't wanna control a single spess mehreen squad, I wanna have an army obliterating swarms of greenskins, with tanks, aircraft and mechs.
Something like starcraft is but more grimdark and brutal. And proper basebuilding.

That's true, but they also had much shorter campaigns, no editor, DoW1 for the most part featured a straight copy-paste approach between Space Marines and Chaos (which is not possible today as modern Chaos removed or redesigned the common units between them). More maps and while the race count is lower, the amount of units and buildings in total is greater than in both of the previous games. Deffkoptas, niche Eldar aspects, the giant units,... The unit roster is much bigger and more complete than in either of the previous games.

They had Starcraft 2 pro players do the balance and they were the ones consulted for game design. That's why time to kill is so low for standard units. Then they threw in heroes because they wanted the moba audience that doesn't play RTS games.

You forgot the part about twirling mustaches and laughing at their genius plan of flushing millions of canadian dollars down the toilet.
Summoning demons in the backyard.

You know, standard "I am a game developer, it only makes sense I would want to make my game as big of a failure as humanly possible. Because it makes sense to people online."

Yeah their system of giving everyone access to multiplayer only limited to the races you've bought was fantastic for the players but not good for marketing over time

I'm not sure if I would let any of those women have sex with me.

>Loved Dawn of War + expansions and Dawn of War 2 + expansions for different reasons
>Expected something similar to one or the other or possibly a blend between the two
>got neither
>feels like starcraft-lite as the game encourages unit blobbing and everything dies stupidly fast
>removed cover all together
>put in an awful game mode that ensures snowballing occurs where whomever gets the most points first will win as they have an insurmountable economic advantage - this is also the only multiplayer mode


it was doomed from the start

How could they look at what they were making and think: "This is what people really want!" ?

>40K is about having huge armies of spess mehreens tearing and ripping infinite armies of xenos apart
So we are going to pretend that factions like Deathwatch, Officio Assassinorum and Sisters of Battle don't exist?

Not that user, but I like both vanilla and 2 due to their differences.

Vanilla has fights similar to those in the lore while 2 is focused more on smaller skirmishes and hero units you can customize to your liking (thing 40K's Kill-Team where you have characters with attitudes and have them be bad enough dudes to kick ass left and right).

My beef with DoW 3 is that while the graphics aren't bad, they made the game too micro-oriented and closer to StarCraft (SC II in this case), whereas DoW 2 wasn't this heavy on micro and the vanilla one was more macro-centered.

Those, and the whole cover system combined with idiocies like the first play-mode for skirmish and multi that clearly was MOBA.

Not only the devs downright ignore people telling them what the hell is wrong, they instead release new skins instead (and three new elites with the previous update).

Dawn of War is going the same path what EA did with Command & Conquer by releasing the abomination that was Tiberian Twilight.

Which pains me to see a pretty good series going out this way...

This, DoW factions eere great because if you like swarms you have imperial guard, orks, tyranids etc. But if you prefer smaller elite forces you have space marines and the like. The variety was excellent

>the vanilla one was more macro-centered.

Do you even know what macro is? Because a game without any resource gathering whatsoever is hard-pressed to be called "macro-centered".

If you want to see a macro-centered game to the max, that's Starcraft. If you can keep your economy running and keep up with increases in production, you can quite literally throw whatever the fuck you want at the enemy and win.

killed the warhammer 40k brand, the only way to bring it back is a SPESS MUHREEN SEQUEL

PLEASE
SEQUEL WHEN

All factions are swarm centric in DoW1, less so but still in DoW3.
All factions are small elite forces in DoW2.

If they aren't, you're simply playing the game wrong.
It's one of the reasons why so many people herald a mix of DoW1 and DoW2 as the next coming of Christ. Because it would feature elite armies of the 2nd duking it out with the horde armies of the 1st.

>Dawn of war 1: great starting point, 4 factions, decent map count and campaign
>Winter assualt: Adds IG, lets you play the campaign as multiple factions
>Dark crusade: Adds 2 factions, introduces a brilliant and somewhat dynamic campaign
>Soulstorm: Adds 2 more factions, has the most content and the best MP balance
Great series with each X-Pac expanding the game and adding something significant
>Dawn of war 2: Introduces the Tyranids, reworks the campaign to be an enjoyable quasi-loot based experience. Adds some mechanics from CoH while improving graphics
>Chaos rising: adds chaos, introduces fun last stand mode, another quality campaign with lore fan service
>Retribution: adds IG, makes the campaign playable with all factions, another fun last stand map, most content in dow2 series
Another great series which took some steps backward but had plenty of new features and content to justify purchasing
>Dawn of war 3: one game mode, tiny map count, short campaign which switches between factions and serves as a glorified tutorial, smallest number of factions, cover removed, no alternate content, doctrine shit, denuvo
So why buy dawn of war 3? I don't want the series to die but I don't think expansion packs can fix it, which would require Sega approving dawn of war 4 despite poor sales

The brand is arguably more popular than Warhammer fantasy (though it seems fantasy has the better videogames out now).

If I recall, The Last Stand was a thing before Chaos Rising.

But there was no resource gathering.

There were listening posts you build over captured strategic points and you also build power generators (like the same way you build in Impossible Creatures).

And no, that is not resource gathering since you don't have any resource gathering units. DoW never had these...maybe except for the DEldar builder unit and Talos who could gather souls to power-up your abilities and allow for use of powers you unlocked after researching new tiers and building the Soul Cage.

So no. The resource management system was similar to TA or SupCom (or any other game with similar mechanisms), which left you with other things to focus on.

You might be right, wasn't the end of the first last stand map basically a teaser for chaos rising?

Its not up to SEGA, its whether Games Workshop wants more 40k videogames. 40k is their biggest franchise. WFB may have the better videogames but 40k has tons more branded shit (novels, comics, etc) and sells more models. If sega doesn't want to, some other studio will try to get the license to do something else.

I don't agree on DoW1, at least in the case of the 1v1s I would play there was definitely a difference in quantity between the factions, but yes in the drawn out games I could see everyone having swarms

Not that user, but yep.

Final round is you, your buds and Blodletters led by a Chaos Lord. One really big teaser to Chaos Rising.

Yeah but they can be implented as special units for one big faction of the Imperium of Men.
For example (for infantry) you have cheap T1 cannon fodder imperial guard, then strong T1.5 spess mehreens and T2/3 assassins/terminators.
Making 20 factions is nowadays too unrealistic (especially to balance) but making a big faction with many units would be much more interesting.
Perhaps add some missions for single player campaign with small elite forces of Grey Knights etc.
So you will have for example:
>Imperium of Men (with multiple factions from DoW combined)
>Orcs (the usual, maybe add some more new interesting units
>Chaos (with units from all chaos gods, probably even make T3 upgrade where you pledge to some god to make certain elite units)
>Eldar (also with more unique units)
For the beginning this will do. Being able to make huge armies and also some specialists that can hurt the economy will make this game much more interesting, you will have your DoW 1 and 2 combined.

>Only 3 factions
>Too MOBAfied
>Shoddy voice acting in comparison to the first two games
>Incredibly micro-intensive
>Encourages you to pump out units and throw them into blob vs blob engagements
>Hero units pretty much control the flow of battle
>Released with only 1 gamemode with it taking TWO months to add in Annihilation
>Campaign is a glorified tutorial for the multiplayer
>Relic actively spat in the faces of fans who voiced their concerns
your death will weigh on my soul, Relic
as will your folly

E-Sports are the Hammer on Kikes.

But they did try to rectify it, they tried putting in annihilation and made the game less about unit spam. Its not much but they obviously figured out from the sales and concurrent users that it wasn't what people wanted.

I don't recall current-relic putting out hit peices about old fans of the game either.

I think its painfully obvious they were making a MOBA, then tried to change it into an RTS again at the last minute.

Played DoW1 a fuck load when it came out and even still play it now and again. Put maybe 100 hours into dow2 even though I think 1 is way better. Managed to play dow3 for about 30 minutes. I was rather disgusted to see such a great series fall so low.

Reminded me so much of CNC, a good franchise that got good additions to it as time goes on but at last dies due to terrible corporate decisions and mismanagement

youtube.com/watch?v=0ROk7Mgh13w

>they tried putting in annihilation and made the game less about unit spam. Its not much but they obviously figured out from the sales and concurrent users that it wasn't what people wanted.
yeah, they put in annihilation a whole month after everybody stopped playing the game
if they actually wanted to save the trainwreck that is DoW3 then they should have followed a consistent update schedule with all of these maps and new modes coming in within 3 weeks - 1 month after release, with the elite units releasing 2 weeks after that and following up with a faction pack in the form of necrons
however they soon probably realized that the damage done from the "DoW3 is a MOBA" smear campaign was irrevocable and thus relegating DoW3 to a skeleton crew was a financially wiser choice

>I don't recall current-relic putting out hit peices about old fans of the game either.
youtube.com/watch?v=h_QBkq1uMs4
tell me what this interview is if not blatant disrespect towards old fans of the game
>"lmao dude these kids keep whining about the stuff you're doing in DoW3 aren't they such crybabies"
>"yeah dude like Gabriel's terminator jump is completely fine-- it's a world where you have talking mushrooms and magical space elves, just let it be WACKY sometimes xD"
pair that together with Relic's decision to entirely ignore any and all negative feedback on their youtube videos and on their forums, and it's clear they didn't give a damn about what their old fans thought about the new entry

If this isn't a troll, how blind can you be to cut out your core, stable audience which you had already established for a demograph who are already too occupied buying luxury goods (bags, shoes, clothing)?

The whole "aim for women/more diverse customers" sounds nice on paper but in practice you're attempting to compete their attention away from decades worth of marketing from the fashion industry. Girls already not interested in games on average as well as the competition of fashion is a losing battle for video games. You were insane to diverge away from the core audience you already held.

If this is a troll, well done in getting me to reply.

Not much really. Solid game but needs more content.

>What went wrong?

almost everything

>shit voice actors
>jumping termies, animations sucked in general
>retarded gameplay
>that skull system was an abomination
>laughably bad campaign( ok dow 2 wasn't that good but it was passable)
>3 factions

all they had to do was dow 1 with with some dow2 mechanics,better graphics, some quality of life changes and throw in a generic 40k story for the campaign and it would have been fine. instead they worked pretty hard to alienate both dow 1 and 2 veterans by putting in shit that almost nobody asked for

Trash campaign. I don't care about multiplayer, but I'd fucking kill for another Dark Crusade style campaign. A DoW2 style one would also be nice.

>tell me what this interview is if not blatant disrespect towards old fans of the game

I mean, I'd be disrespectful as well if I were the lead designer of Dark Crusade and some shit online told me that I should be fired and they should get the person who lead the Dark Crusade team instead.

entirely correct :)

because it sure is a good idea to let things register on an emotional level when you're an important advocate for an upcoming release

honestly, fuck him-- I have a hard enough time as is believing that somebody like him pulled off Chaos Rising and I'm sincerely glad he's out of Relic now
though I doubt his departure is going to fix anything

Looks like there was a huge playerbase spike over the weekend into 6k or so. What happened?

free weekend

...

Free weekend.

everyone in this thread is fucking retarded thinking mobas had a fucking blip on the radar when DoW2 came out. It's a company of heroes but with WC3 style unit abilities and hero characters.

DoW3 units feel like uninspired toys and the gameplay has little tactical depth. It doesn't have the character of 1 or the superior tactical gameplay of 2 and so it has nothing going for it making it a forgettable mess

Also RTS is fucking dead cause no one wants to spend the time to get good at the hardest genre when they could go play one of the 50 flavor of the month games that came out instead. If someone wants to make an RTS people will actually play it needs to be focused around really fun comp stomps that way people with lower than 200 apm can actually enjoy the multiplayer

Free weekend just after a patch of decent size.

Ah right, that makes sense. Well, funny thing is that Dow3 on average before that had less players than Blood Bowl 2. Which is a niche within its own genre (tabletop games). That's pretty impressive.

>>Relic actively spat in the faces of fans who voiced their concerns

how? i never paid attention

there's more incidents than that one which weren't quite so aggressive but rather dismissive and incredibly out-of-touch (HEY dudes we have angry joe and a lot of other cuh-RAZY youtubers playing our epic game; won't you buy it? :D)

>>>Relic actively spat in the faces of fans who voiced their concerns
I think its an exaggeration. They did brush off criticism towards the Terminator front flip slam as there being a bit of an Avatar in his armour which was a bit half assed but nothing bad.

Also in general they supposedly were not very responsive to fan criticism but only realized near the end (again supposedly) that they were about to hit a brick wall so changed gear to add more RTS elements.

to be fair most fans are fucking retarded and have no idea what made 1 and 2 good in the first place

What about all that "mobashit" user is talking about? I've just played a campaign for like three missions at the free weekend.

The only part of warcraft 3 I hate is MOBAS!!!!!

Harsh way of saying it. I think fans are alright considering they are your life blood. The only problem is deciphering what part of their criticism is legit and which is chaff.

>(HEY dudes we have angry joe and a lot of other cuh-RAZY youtubers playing our epic game; won't you buy it? :D)
Why did they think this would work on fans of Dawn of War?