I got into an argument with my friend over whether loot boxes can be considered gambling and he says that they aren't...

I got into an argument with my friend over whether loot boxes can be considered gambling and he says that they aren't and i say they are. He also says that gambling should be completely legal for all ages, and i heavily disagree with that. What do you guys think? Do you guys think Loot boxes should be considered gambling and that gambling should be legal for all ages? I'm asking you guys because are argument was based around the lowest common denominator and you fucks fit the bill.

Loot boxes are not gambling but they are still shitty.

>gambling should be legal for all ages
Libertarians are retarded

Not gambling unless you can exchange your winnings for other goods, or credit.

>Loot boxes are not gambling

what did you mean by this?

>Gambling
>You put up some money and you may or may not get something in return

>Lootboxes
>You put up some money and always get something in return
>Usually shit

There's a difference. They're dogshit but they're not gambling.

The second you pay for a "chance" at something you are gambling. Simple as.

As for age, I do think there should be some kind of restriction. Kids are too easily taken advantage of.

underage

If you can use real money to purchase a chance to win something, it's gambling,

Don't all these games have marketplaces through Steam or whatever where you can trade items for other games or sell them for money?

This. If you don't do like the odds, then don't do it. If you don't want your kids to do it, hide the credit cards. It's that simple. It's not the government's job to police and parent your children, it's your's.

So would a slot machine not be gambling if every time you put 25 cents in you got back at least 1 penny?

What the fuck is "vhs" trying to parody? Can't think of a single console with abrivattions close to vhs

/thread

Everyone go home.

of course gambling should be legal at all age
some people just want to burn and become miserable, just let them

>gambling should be legal for all ages

You should have discarded his opinion at that point, and also his friendship.

Kids are far too susceptible to that shit, this sort of shit has already gone through the wringer on mobile and it resulted in kids spending thousands of dollars on some shitty mobile game before their parents realized what was going on, this sort of shit is results in governments stepping in to regulate it, and then you have 60 year old men who don't know what an internet is making laws about video games.

It ruins it for everyone at that point so these companies should really not be toeing the line, self regulation is better than having the man step in and do it in the most heavy handed and non understanding way possible.

They should be considered gambling as much as shooting someone in Call of Duty is considered violence.

I don't give a fuck either way as long as we can find a way to force these faggots to keep them out of their games I will call it gambling all day long.

*blocks your argument*

>You put up some money and always get something in return

Irrelevant. You're still gambling on getting something good. If there's any element of chance it's gambling.

Loot boxes are not gambling because you always win something. It's the sample principle as them machines that you put money into and they give you a toy in a plastic ball only more expensive and virtual.

As for gambling for all ages: I think the gambling age should be lowered to the age of which that country finishes school. For example i'm a Britbong and you can leave school and get a job at the age of 16 though the legal age is 18. As long as you're earning your own money then you're responsible enough to spend it in any way you want to.

Yeah but no one is buying loot boxes and the keys for them because they want the shit items, they're obviously buying them because they want the advertised top-rarity items.

People often compare them to baseball cards or MtG cards, but those are physical goods you actually get something in return for your money and not just make-believe pixels and polygons.

but you spend real money on loot crates, you don't shoot real bullets at people in Call of Duty

Thats betting or wagering.

Gambling is to take risky action in the hope of a desired result. In most cases people will want something specific from a loot box, getting that item is their desired result. If they get another item, that is not their desired result, in which they have lost their gamble even though they gained something.

Well, one might argue they aren't gambling because you always get something of value when you use them, whether that value is 3 cents or a thousand dollars. Unlike gambling where you bet and can lose ALL of your money.

Also, Loot Boxes aren't gambling because if they are, Card Packs for Pokemon and Magic the Gathering and shit are.

You are not getting money from loot boxes. Loot boxes give you digital items that the community give value to, yet they hold no "real" value. A dollar is always a dollar but a $500 awp skin could be worth a penny to someone who has no interest in CS or video games.

true. but that would be the same as buying a mystery bag at a store, selling whatever you got to a pawn shop for change and calling that gambling.

Poor bait. Try again.

if anything it's worse than gambling, when you gamble you at least have a chance of getting something.

Loot boxes are more like, you go into a store, and buy a TV, then the store clerk pulls out a pair of dice and says he will actually give you the TV you paid for if you roll boxcars.

too bad! snake eyes! have a toaster of significantly less value as a consolation prize.

Keep beating that dead horse.

>. Loot boxes give you digital items that the community give value to
How is that different than any fiat currency or anything that has value? A Nintendo Switch only has value because the community (video game buyers) gives it value.

Let me pose an argument to you in the form of a question.

If Blizzard shuts down Overwatch tomorrow, do I have anything of real value I can get out of it?

If Wizards of the Coast shuts down Magic, do I have anything of real value I can get out of it?

I don't see how that's relevant to my point.

Also this comparison is stupid anyway, casinos often use tokens and chips in place of currency which you then turn into currency when leaving. Those tokens ONLY have value as long as the casino is in business and only have value to the casino because the casino is saying that red chip is worth $20.

Lootboxes are borderline gambling. They are not gambling. If lootboxes could be considered gambling, then you may as well make illegal all card games, gumball machines, and anything else that randomizes rewards for money.

In order for something to be considered gambling, it is required that the activity potentially reward nothing. You can argue "nothing" in this context as virtual, non-existent items, or "things you already have", but it's still not gambling.

The best thing to do is simply to not purchase loot boxes and wait for the fad to die.

see: It's also the way that they're advertised. Cards are just cards and same as plastic toys (called gacha in Japanese). A pack of hockey or Magic cards aren't advertised as SUPER ULTRA-LIMITED EDITION DELUXE LIMITED TIME ONLY FEATURING THESE THREE SPECIFIC CARDS (and a bunch of shit).

As it stands, loot boxes do not fall under the legal definition of gambling. The prize must be a material good, or money. The items from loot boxes CAN be sold for money (though many games forbid this with the TOS) but then we have to start considering digital items as material goods, which opens a whole legal can of worms up.

Here's a reality check for you, sweetums
>Go to store
>Buy TV at retail price and not complain
Or
>Go to store
>Want to buy TV
>Store clerk has a mystery box on the counter
>"You can buy the TV, or pay me 5 bucks to try and win it with the mystery box"
>Go with mystery box
>You open to find it's a TV remote
>"dude wtf"
>"You chose the mystery box, buddy."

If your argument that a digital item with no in-game value and no resale value is the equivalent of a physical item, then how is losing a wager at a casino also not something? You gain from the experience of that loss and got to engage in the thrill of the wager, that's not nothing.

no.
Digital purchases are not long term investment.

You could say the exact same thing about food.

did you know: television stations have to schedule toy commercials so that toys related to the currently airing show DO NOT AIR
there is a government regulation preventing a show's merchandise from using advertisements in the same timeslot

videogames should fall under the same regulation, a game should never be able to advertise within its play sessions that you are able to spend additional money inside the game

>If Blizzard shuts down Overwatch tomorrow, do I have anything of real value I can get out of it?
No.
>If Wizards of the Coast shuts down Magic, do I have anything of real value I can get out of it?
Yes, because it's not an online game and you can still play it.

Man, isn't that kind of fucked up? I've spent like $100+ on Street Fighter 5 season passes and shit, and it won't be relevant if SF6 comes out and they shut down the servers for SF5. It's literally impossible for them to shut down the servers for SF4 because it's hosted on steam.

>If Blizzard shuts down Overwatch tomorrow, do I have anything of real value I can get out of it?
no
>If Wizards of the Coast shuts down Magic, do I have anything of real value I can get out of it?
yes because people pay stupid amounts of money for a piece of cardboard

Thanks user for ending the argument. I'm the nigger in question that he was talking about. I mention Pokemon cards to attempt to make him see the light. Also I never said that Gambling should be legal for all ages

/thread

Do you have the option to directly purchase every item you can win from loot boxes? Because if not, your scenario only makes sense if the mystery box is the only way to get a TV.

Yeah, but I don't need digital purchase to live.

Not even going to (You) all the memers talking about physical card games.

Card packs aren't marketed like loot boxes, and they're physical goods with a real-world worth that don't depend on game servers that will get shut down in a year or in a decade.

I have Magic cards from 20 years ago and their worth has only increased since then, and I can still use them to play.

why bring the argument about card packs then?

I suppose then the difference is how many people consider the thing to be that valuable. See, for example, the top-tier CS GO skins priced in the thousands. If nobody ever buys them that means they're not worth the asking price.

They're not gambling because you always get something. Same reason pokémon cards aren't considered gambling. Or Kinder Surprise for that matter.

The company behind Kinder Surprise is one of the most powerful corporations in the world so there's no way in hell their shit will ever be considered gambling in any country.

And they may be even larger if Trump follows trough and make them legal in the US. If that's the case, the US is beyond fucked.

>Also, Loot Boxes aren't gambling because if they are, Card Packs for Pokemon and Magic the Gathering and shit are.

Well yes of course they are. But it really depends on why it is you are buying them. You are not taking a gamble if there is nothing specific you wish to get from the mystery box. You are always going to get what you want because what you want is anything and everything the box can provide.

You are taking a gamble if you want something spesific because there is a chance you will not get it.

Its a gamble for some and not for others.

"Resale" value is high subjective and dependent on other parties having any interest in purchasing your item. There's no guarantee your item has any resale value, physical or not.

What is objective is that you obtained a virtual item in game that had some value to either you or in the context of the game. You are, essentially, paying more money to play the game, similar to DLC. That is the endgame for lootboxes after all. You are attempting to unlock content you didn't have.

If lootboxes ever began to reward absolutely nothing, you would have an argument for gambling.

no but nourishment like enjoyment is a temporary investment.
i didn't i was just responding.

Because you rebuttal have fuck all to do with it. Saying something isn't gambling because you can resell it later is retarded for obvious reasons.

>If lootboxes ever began to reward absolutely nothing, you would have an argument for gambling.
Voice lines and ugly sprays. Sure is something.

Physical

there's a huge difference between physical and digital loot
>paying for data

It's a non-issue. If a credit card is required, then the age gate is already in place and anything else is adding more hoops than necessary. Vote with your wallets and let children be children.

Dude yeah just buy an Burning Captain directly from the TF2 store

The random element means you gamble your money if hope of getting something valuable.
If you dont get something valuable whats the next step? Gamble more?
Obviously the system can be replaced with selling digital items with no gambling element at all, why not do so?

People aren't buying Kinder because Kinder advertises specific toys in super-limited ultra-rare editions. They buy it because it's not-bad chocolate and it gives you something to do after you've eaten the chocolate.

With pokemon cards, or any other cards, the card packs aren't aggressively marketed as ultra-rare limited-edition only. A card pack is a card pack.

More importantly, you do something out of it that has real-world worth. it's not going to be completely worthless once the servers shut down.

It isn't truly gambling as defined but it is still a manipulative anti-consumer practice designed to target addicts and should be regulated to the same degree.

Dictionaries exist. That's not a legal definition, but it is gambling, period.

Lootboxes aren't gambling, they're prize-pool goods (much like CCGs, baseball cards, etc,). You're always guaranteed certain things in a lootbox, but no such guarantee is extended to government-regulated gambling (binary win-loss states with binary exchanges).
Lootboxes are gambling by definition, bit if you're willing to do that, you might as well say it's a "gamble to buy food because you risk food poisoning."

...

>Lootboxes are gambling by definition, bit if you're willing to do that, you might as well say it's a "gamble to buy food because you risk food poisoning."

It's more like buying a dozen donuts, and 11 of them are filled with AIDS-cum while just the one is filled with tasty cream.

Again... content. You are paying to unlock content. It's no different from DLC. If this EVER becomes an issue, they can simply write this bit into the EULA.

It is not gambling unless you have a chance to receive nothing. Even the bits of in game currency that you get for already having loot in Overwatch is something.

Who cares if it's legally gambling? Loot boxes are shitty because they're post-purchase monetization. When I sit down and play a video game after a long day at work, I want to enjoy an experience that was crafted to be fun, not to milk my wallet.

I think it should be legal but only because I know I could exploit others and make a good amount of money from it. All my reasons go against the idea of a healthy community and mindset. Deal with it faggot, capitalism is my shit.

The key problem to all these bad practices these days is the entanglement of EULA's that perhaps a single percent of people take the time to read through.

How do we fix that problem?
Typing out the an abridged version of the agreement would be an interesting idea.
Several common clauses in the agreements of many games can boil down to the following:
>You technically don't own the game, we're just letting you borrow it for as long as we allow you to.
>Don't mess with the game code.
>Everything you get in-game is actually ours, and we can take and/or give it away at any time.
>You can buy in-game stuff with real-world money, It's not actually worth anything outside the game, though.
>If you don't like this agreement, you can stop playing.

This is a better example of something that's borderline gambling versus "Gambling"™, much better than lootcrates.
Lootcrates have more variables than your example. Is paying to get into the audience of the Price is Right gambling?

>Is paying to get into the audience of the Price is Right gambling?
If there's a chance you are instead given a "seat" outside the studio and watch it on a plasma screen hung up outside, yeah.

Yes. I wouldn't consider people buying these donuts to gambling in the traditional sense, but boxes of infected and good donuts. Exact same thing as a CCG/sports cards/pogs.

>Unlike gambling where you bet and can lose ALL of your money.
Except in the case of certain penny slots, where you're guaranteed to win anywhere from a penny to $100+ per credit.
Doesn't mean it's no longer gambling.

Tickets to the PIR are sold based on seating as far as I know. The bonus is you can potentially be a contestant.

buying card packs is no the only way to get them, you can buy the card you want for a fixed price and many card games let you use duplicated cards, meanwhile in videogames with lootboxes there is no point in getting duplicates except for getting a small amount of currency and the amount you get is random

So what exactly is the definition of gambling.

Cambridge dictionary puts it as.
>the activity of betting money, for example in a game or on a horse race.

Marriam webster:
>to play a game for money or property
>to bet on an uncertain outcome
>to stake something on a contingency

Collins dic:
>Gambling is the act or activity of betting money, for example in card games or on horse racing.

It kind of depends on which definition you use if loot boxes are gambling or not. And its easy to see how some people think they are while some think they are not. However even if you cant define them as gambling they should still fall under the same control as gambling.

Gambling is controlled because its an extremely easy way to lose lots of money and people can get addicted.

Lootboxes are also clearly addicting and can also lead to huge losses of money.

Sure its stupid people doing both, but they should not be treated any differently because one of those two gets a skin for a weapon rather than nothing. Hell if thats how it worked any casino would be able to offer all players who lose something that costs the casino pretty much nothing, say those customers are actually "winning" and dodge gambling laws.

>i-it's gambling and it's bad for children
>I actually believe this I'm not just saying this because I want to spend less on micro transactions, which I buy because I'm an idiot

>All the people ITT who've never used a slot machine
Fucking hell you people are stupid.
Being guaranteed to win SOMETHING doesn't suddenly make it not gambling you underageb&s.

I'm saying this because I don't want microtransactions in my paid to play games, especially shit that encourages grinding like loot boxes.
The only people who defend this shit are whales.

It's gambling if there's no skill involved. Carnival games are not gambling, opening loot boxes is.

It's not about deffinition, it's the situation.

If you buy a pack of cards just wanting any pokemon, thats not gambling.

If you buy a pack of cards hoping for a certain pokemon, it's gambling because there is just a chance of you getting it.

Gambling is not limited to money btw.

CCG:
>every card is valuable, you can build effective decks with pretty common cards
videogames lootboxes:
>no point in using a "common" if you already have a "legendary" of the same category

Doesn't matter because it was of value when you opened it.

If you win money today and tomorrow our system is destroyed, then your money wont be worth anything.

then don't buy them

This.
The key problem with stuff like Lootboxes is the same problem with Gacha systems in so many mobile games: There is no hard limit to the amount you could spend, and it can easily reach into far beyond what most people would ascribe as reasonable.
If Overwatch had a system whereupon you could pay a single, fixed, price all the skins of a particular event, or for all current and future skins of a certain character, it wouldn't be nearly as bad.

Literally only manchildren think lootboxes are gambling

>Exact same thing as a CCG/sports cards/pogs.

No.

this guy lays it out

...

>He also says that gambling should be completely legal for all ages
He's right. Now get the fuck out of here, you dumb statist

It's a very scummy practice that has no good ending for us.
>gets regulated
>now have excuse to regulate other shit too

>nothing happens
>lootboxes in almost every AAA game
Fucking jews, man.

Yeah its got exactly the same problems and issues as gambling. Even if you cant define it as gambling its still pretty much just as bad.

Should have to follow the same regulations.

>purchasing them requires a credit card or income for gift cards
>either of which require parent involvement or a job
They are already regulated by parents for children.

Not the jews (business mans) fault. It's the fault of the consumer and the regulator.

>No!
It's closer to this then it is to traditional gambling. Just because you need way more units in a CCG doesn't make it much different really. In sports cards you arguably want a valuable card or something to complete your collection, this isn't much different then lootbox.

I know you are but what am I

Loot boxes are fucking terrible and if anyone supports them then they are part of the problem..i can't wait for the gaming industry to crash

What if, in that mystery bag that costs 2 dollars, there is a .05% chance for you to get an item worth hundreds of dollars in credits

>legal for all ages
Kids will buy the dumbest shit if they're allowed to. Most of us fell for the Pokemon card scam.

I hate people who argue that gamblin should not be a thing because some people cannot help it
it's like putting a ban on everything because some people cannot help X