What happened to execution heavy fighting games/fighting game characters?

\What happened to execution heavy fighting games/fighting game characters?

Even a couple years ago, in sf4, and other games, you needed really strong execution to play certain characters, or to compete at the top levels. In guilty gear accent core some characters like i-no required inhuman execution. Not to mention old fighting games with characters like KOF02 angel, mvc2 magneto, ST o.hawk, vf akira, and vampire savior bulleta.

Even the niche games like guilty gear have had huge buffers added and removed FRC points. It seems execution isn't rewarded as strongly or prioritized anymore. Why is this? I miss the days of really training my ass off to play a technical character.

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=iSgA_nK_w3A
steamcommunity.com/app/45760/discussions/0/619574421215191578/
forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/194239/walk-forward-straight-in-to-hadoken
capcom-unity.com/street_fighter/go/thread/view/7411/23980573/ryu-walk-up-cr-mk-hadouken-problems?pg=4
twitter.com/AnonBabble

Ease of use, duh.
Although a lot of them were not difficult by design but simply because of how their frame data interacted.

>Although a lot of them were not difficult by design but simply because of how their frame data interacted.
yeah but once they turned out to be technical the devs didn't remove their options, they rolled with it

nowadays everything is auto-unga

Well, there probably is more time spent working on balance instead of going with "doesn't crash the game, let's ship and then integrate feedback into the revision next year"

bulleta a cute

They still exist

>they still exist
give me an example

and don't say guilty gear because that's false

It's not, it's just character specific. Naoto in BlazBlue and Answer in GG spring to mind. Most fighting games take care to add at least one or two execution heavy characters.

Why is it false?

Stance characters will never be easy

execution in xrd is nothing

In comparison to what?

accident core

Well that's just false my dude.
Would give you a baxter gif but I'm phoneposting like a scrub right now.

Guilty Gear Xrd is still insanely technical, try playing Venom or Johnny and getting gud. Sure, there's no FRC anymore, but everything else in the game is still just as technical and hasn't been dumbed down.

They got more used to making games, technology got better. It probably just got easier to smooth shit out over time. Plus there's no need for the super gimmicky secret arcade boss shit in this day and age. The surprise would be ruined within an hour of release.
Execution was never the end all, be all anyways. I'm just surprised there are people who still refuse to learn this much, with all the easy shit we got goring for us now.

play tekken

Execution barrier is just another barrier to make people avoid fightans.

i don't mind execution for the risk/reward it has going for but most people don't like it i suppose.

I'm surprised anyone managed to get into Tekken 7 with the game working against you. The lack of replays really shits on your ability to properly learn from your losses and no rematch in playermatches are a detriment to learning matchups. I would have preferred a leaderboard so you can siphon tech from other player's replays.

Thank god for the resources available from the community but the lack of rematches/replays suck.

Companies are moving away from creating games that require hundreds of hours of practice on top of hundreds of hours to study. Removing this barrier of entry allows for more people to play, resulting in more sales. On the skill side, what are you worried about? If you're any sort of competent, all this means is that scrubs are going to be slightly harder to body. This gripe is the new hotness when it comes to scrub mantras. If you are leaning on your opponents being less informed, capable, or skilled, of course the reward is not going to be immense when shifts like this happen.

Remember, developers are trying to run a business and scaring away newbies before they even play is bad for business. Come to terms with slowly finding out that what you thought of as hot shit is revealed to be cold diarrhea.

This pretty much, although i think shit like auto combos with one button is kinda awful.

It's alright when they have a purpose like persona. In that game they did significantly less damage than the same type of combo just done through the game's system, but could still be used for meter gain or unique variants of block strings

Don't try to enjoy them for what they do, try to "enjoy" them in the sense that people who lean on them are now painting huge targets on themselves. Once you figure out how to combat a dial-a-combo, that player should never have an edge on you again.

Are you implying that just because Xrd is easier to play than XX, the game's execution barrier at high level isn't still huge? I-no may now auto jump install her HCL but hitting her optimal combos still requires extensive knowledge of every characters' weight, hitbox, and the starting proration vastly changes the enders you can even attempt. Oh boo hoo; RC has slowdown now. You still have a billion things to practice that require 1 frame links, and all her set play like high hover dash cross up fortissimo, FDC mix ups, blitz oses, fuzzy guard traps and unblockables. Oh, and this is practicing while accounting for every character's two different wake up timings.

This is literally only 1 character in a game with 20+, and said character execution barrier was lessened considerable so someone besides Koichi could play her. Guilty gear is still fucking hard as shit execution wise. Maybe some characters are harder than others execution wise but every character except Raven has hard shit. That's not even talking about how every character needs to practice defense, or if you wanted to really go that far and just talk about Blazblue, which has basically all of this with some new shit specific only to it. Come off it mate.

i'm pretty sure he is referring to SF5 what whatever other mechanic devs are adding to their games, it is not exclusive to xrd

Nah he's talking about xrd and i want to know what the fuck he thinks about it that makes it so easy he'd call it "nothing". I bet he's just a AC dickrider or something. Fucking blight on fighting games.

youtube.com/watch?v=iSgA_nK_w3A

inb4 something something pretentious voice something. There's actually a lot of good points in here about the way SF5 and the way a lot of modern fighting games handle themselves with supporting interviews and gameplay.

>Naoto
Naoto is hilarious because everyone and their dog just knew he was another Ragna clone. Only for him to be thumb bleedingly difficult because if you're not optimal then you're not getting shit. Which makes me think ASW did that on purpose just to fuck with everyone.

Tekken is still hard, even though they've implemented casual-friendly mechanics

I can't believe qudans won with such a technical character. I can't do half that shit at home and dude pulled it off in the most stacked tournament

Meanwhile Lupe Fiasco beat fucking Daigo

Bulleta is my favorite charge character ever.

well one day they'll bring her back and she won't be a charge character anymore.

i played the new MvC at a friend's place and i felt as if auto-combo -- or whatever it was -- was either turned on or the default. all i did was press a few buttons and jump, and my character gave like 10 hits to my opponent. what's the deal? i don't remember MvC3U being like this or was it?

>implying Naoto isn't cooler

auto was multiple buttons then. TVC had similar autocombos though

she's not even charge, literally only missiles are

it's like bishamon and his slashes

I sure hope they don't change Robo Ky like they did with Baiken

>You still have a billion things to practice that require 1 frame links
xturd has a 3 frame input buffer though manlet

Because gaming is mainstream now. That means games get reviews by mainstream "journalists" and blogs by mentally handicapped children who have need win with minimal effort. Execution-heavy fighting games become 'obscure' because a shit ton of retards buy them expecting an rpg but with punching then leave, and then shitters blame the game and then Sup Forums screams ded game. After that nobody takes it seriously anywhere and it stays niche. Pic related

He probably won't be the same as he was before, but that's fine by me. I just want them to capture what made him interesting to play as before, which they unfortunately didn't manage to do with Baiken.

I think this applies to any medium. Inb4 a shitload of greentexts but Game of Thrones perfectly exemplifies this. Because older seasons went out of their way to buck normal trends so even if it was shit certain parts were at least unexpected. Now it's basically Lord of the Rings

Bulleta needs to be in more things. Playing as her in Cannon Spike was awesome.

At least she showed up in Project X Zone 2 recently, but it would be nice if she were in a fighting game again.

It's default, its existed since MvC1 and I don't know why people are surprised by it. A shame they didn't give you the normal/simple option like 3 did

Well I for one hated playing against old baiken's guard shit, but on the other hand her new parries are super lame

It's funny because today I transitioned from +R to Xrd rev 2 and boy execution is easy

I mean, +R is remarkably execution heavy, and there are execution heavy characters on Xrd, but the difference is amazing

I still like Xrd tho

Because it's stupid and adds nothing to the game other than the amount of time you have to sit in practice mode doing the same motions over and over to imprint them into muscle memory.

get a full time job

t. Capcom players

Not really. There's actually a couple reasons for that but I doubt you'd actually take time out to have an actual dialogue with me about it.

>It's funny because today I transitioned from +R to Xrd rev 2 and boy execution is easy
people still play +R?

how do you get matches? I don't want to play xturd.

Wow, you sure make your side of the argument look smart and not retarded.

I have a couple of competent friends that play it, netcode is garbage, I play online.

And I'll never stop playing `+R, is my favorite fighting game.

there is no argument silly, everybody makes fun of executionless brainlets like you

Okay so let's talk. I'd like to start with a fairly straightforward one, inputs. Now I'm not going to say that a fireball motion is hard but even you have to agree that being able to slide your thumb forward and down while mashing the punch button to get out a fireball is dumb. It's dumb because the better you get at the game the more you get punished for it. The most common example being when you want to walk forward fireball but because the game's inputs are so lenient that it thinks you want a shoryu instead. You can say lol git gud but that's exactly the problem, the game's low execution actually takes options away. So why is that fair?

Fighting games need an execution barrier because I need a reason to actually play the game. Nothing is fun if there's nothing left to learn. If I wanted fighting games to be 100% mindgames, I'd play Poker.

tekken 7

So does that mean you want execution heavy characters to be top tier characters? I'm genuinely curious since I can see some people being upset with a top tier character having lenient inputs compared to more difficult ones.

Guilty Gear

>The most common example being when you want to walk forward fireball but because the game's inputs are so lenient that it thinks you want a shoryu instead.

That doesn't happen. And if you're arguing for execution heavy inputs, then you're being nonsensical since this would be a case of an execution heavy input where you have to do it in a very strict manner to get the desired result. Wow, you're dumb.

That happens very often in Street Fighter 4. If you don't believe me a simple google search would bring up tons of forum posts of people wondering why exactly they keep getting SRKs they didn't want.

steamcommunity.com/app/45760/discussions/0/619574421215191578/

forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/194239/walk-forward-straight-in-to-hadoken

capcom-unity.com/street_fighter/go/thread/view/7411/23980573/ryu-walk-up-cr-mk-hadouken-problems?pg=4

So yes that is a problem and it mostly comes from the leniency of the inputs.

yeah, input leniency in SFIV was hella retarded

>That doesn't happen
happens all the time

it even happens to me in kof98 and ST lol

>input is difficult to do
>it's too lenient!
That's not what lenient means. If you have to do something extremely precisely to get the desired result, then it's not lenient. Just because someone calls it a input leniency doesn't mean it is. What are you arguing for? Hard or easier inputs?

>Hai guys , was wondering if its possible to walk forward and fireball immediately instead of dragon punching and get punished
I don't know why but the way he worded this post is the funniest shit.

If the input for SRK is forward, down, diag forward but the game gives you one anyway for pressing forward and then a fireball motion then there's a problem. So yes I'm arguing for stricter inputs because if the game only gave the move you inputted then that wouldn't happen and walk forward fireballs wouldn't have been half the problem they ended up being.

>you have to precisely input things if you want to do the correct action and if you don't then you will get an undesired sequence of actions
>"it's not strict enough!"
Your cognitive dissonance is impressive.

if it happens to you outside SF4 you are mentally challenged

Except that's not the case. In any other game if you input walk forward fireball then you get a walk forward fireball. In SF4 if you have no choice but to completely halt all action before inputting the fireball, which costs precious time that can decide whether you win or lose a match. All because the game engine itself can't decide whether you want a fireball or an SRK so it just gives whatever. That is not fair.

>this input requires you to do something very specific to get it to come out right
>it's not strict enough!

You're talking in circles now
>Input = forward > QCF + Punch = SRK?

What are you arguing about? The topic is heavy execution aka strict inputs. Yes, input shortcuts in SF4 were stupid.
>if you don't do it exactly like this you will get an undesired result
That's the very definition of a strict input.

Except this isn't a case of user error. The user inputted everything correctly, it's the game that's interpreted the move incorrectly because that input above yours is NOT a shoryuken motion. The reason I brought that up is for two reasons. Firstly because the primary reason it's like that is so that more casual players can get specials with less accurate inputs, which relates to the topic in the OP, and secondly because it takes options away because walk forward fireballs, one of the most basic execution motions, is neutered because unless you intentionally gimp yourself your going to get a move you don't want. All because the game interprets inputs too leniently

>Except this isn't a case of user error.
It is. The game has a way it recognizes inputs. You messed up within that context and got an undesired input. That's textbook user error.

How is that possible though? Because if that's the case then the SRK motion needs to be changed to forward down forward which would be a more accurate representation of how to do that move. Except even to this day it isn't. And I've tested it in practice mode. Even when you input the motion exactly, 6236 in number notation, the game STILL recognizes it as an SRK motion. Which a straight up lie because the second the game recognizes that final forward motion the output SHOULD be a fireball. Since QCF, or 236 in number notation, is a fireball motion.

Xrd Pot
need those 6K loops to be on point

>How is that possible though?
You did an input but got a result you didn't want because you didn't do the correct input to get what you wanted. Are you mentally retarded?

And that input is not this input. So right back at you

Game devs fell for the meme that execution scares away scrubs.

are you retarded? if you go from a walk immediately to a fireball motion in sf4 it DPs

there's even an option select for o.ken in ST based off how the game willl give you DP if you complete it fast enough and have the stick forward

In SF4, there are two ways to do the shoryuken. That's how the game is designed. It's not some random freak occurrence. You are doing an input that does a shoryuken. Stop being mentally retarded.

Which is exactly the point I'm arguing because the way the game interprets inputs is not what's on the game's own move list. So the point is to fix the game's interpretation or change the input.

>I don't think like the input shortcut in SF4
This is the only thing you should have said, you mental retard. I already explained this to you.

Played SF4 until it's death and I can say the input lag was death inducing. Yes simple things like cr.MK, Hadou could and would fuck up in the heat of the battle.

You either had to hit your inputs multiple times or slow down your inputs to not screw up anything. The professionals made fighting in lag easy because they autistic execution, see Wolfkrone and his legacy of lag.

but epin 1f links!

>What happened to execution heavy fighting games/fighting game characters?

Nothing, Guilty Gear is more popular than ever.

yeah input buffers and no more execution requirements vs accent core

whoa really makes me think.

Honestly, yes. If we're going to admit that perfect balance is impossible, the easiest characters shouldn't be as rewarding as characters with much higher skill ceilings.

While in most games it's usually handled via matchup knowledge (nobody plays the hard characters meaning no matchup experience), in the higher level of play it's usually characters with more options that are considered top tier. More options typically means higher skill ceiling or harder to play, but once the skill difference in opponents is equal it all boils down to how the tools are used.

Look at SF4 top tier versus SF5 top tier. SF4 is actually difficult characters with a lot of great tools, and while "LOL ELENA" exists, she's still a high execution character with low damage in the easier combo routes. SF5 top tier is just TAP, vortex, or who has a more reliable AA jab.

I prefer super turbo rules, where the game has a high technical skill ceiling, but you can also win with only qcf+p

>ywn make Bulleta your housewife.

win at what level though

you're never getting to the top levels in that game without having great execution