ITT: Poor game design

ITT: Poor game design.

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That's not how you spell casual filter.

gitgut scrub

lol you're a faggot

The entirety of sen's fortress

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nothing wrong with this apart from maybe the the camera-blocking leaf sprites

That's not poorly designed. It's just hard and full of tricks. Capra Demon is poorly designed because the boss's extremely aggressive moveset doesn't go well with the hounds and the closed environment makes it easy to get stuck on corners and other geometry.
It's just weird to imagine that they designed this arena with this boss in mind. Dark Souls is generally really well designed and enemy groups are very well put together to make for interesting encounters. This is not such a case.

I know this is bait, but you have to be a real retard to fuck up in Sen's.

I think you posted the wrong image, OP. You posted Dark Souls 1, when you should've posted this PS2 game instead.

everyone's first time in sen's was a nightmare. but once you made it through, every other playthrough is a cakewalk

This. It's so fucked speedrunners can only pray to AI RNG gods here.

>"that's not poorly designed"
>proceeds to explain why it is poorly designed

Developers can be cheeky and put the player through hard shit without it being poorly designed though.

Dark Souls 2 is perpetual mediocrity.
Dark Souls 1 is kind of a masterpiece, but also holds the series' worst bosses and areas as well.

Bad game design =/= shitty graphics

>Capra Demon is poorly designed because the boss's extremely aggressive moveset doesn't go well with the hounds and the closed environment makes it easy to get stuck on corners and other geometry.

Your description can only be interpreted as a challenging scenario for an otherwise mundane enemy. When fought later, Capra Demon's are not even thought of as bosses due to where you fight them being incredibly open and able to abuse distance to avoid them altogether.

Meanwhile, the burg Capra Demon is a boss, with a health bar, because the scenario he is placed grants him enough of a challenge to be considered a boss.

Being bad at a game doesn't mean it is poorly designed.

>but also holds the series' worst bosses and areas as well.
All of the Souls games have bad areas and bad bosses.

It's a shame that DaS2 has both.

Very bad, but doable, if you come straight from Demon Souls, but this asshole however...

Bed of chaos is the worst souls boss of all time.

Couldn't you say the same thing about BoC? BoC is basically Dragon God with a little more jank.

>Ambling Pirates appeared!

Honestly, if it was just the Capra Demon in there, it wouldn't be so bad, but having to keep track of three very aggressive enemies at once with a camera that tends to freak out a bit in enclosed environments the fight is just bad and lazy.

It's really not that hard, just run up the stairs.

honestly if the dogs were taken out and they removed access to the stairs it would be a pretty good boss battle, but itd be really easy on your second playthrough

I will never understand so many people bitching about Capra, just fucking roll when you enter and then run up the stairs, kill the dogs when they follow you, then fight capra which is piss easy. Yeah it's shitty that he super slams you right when you go in the door but he's not a big deal at all.

>walk through fog
>stand still
>roll past jumping attack
>turn (because you don't lock on, right? Right?)
>attack
2 ded dogs and a chunked demon

>entire world is built around default jump height
>introduce a new class that can double jump and then glide
>you can now get out of bounds pretty much anywhere

Depends on your build and what the enemies decide to do as an opening move.
It's very likely to get stuck between the Capra Demon and have one of the dogs launch at you before you can get close to the stairs.
It's a poorly designed boss encounter, but that doesn't mean that there won't be people who had no problem with it whatsoever. It mostly depends on luck, which is a huge red flag.
There really is no ''Just do this and you'll be fine'' strategy.

You can't really kill the two dogs consistently like that. The angle at which they attack you will be different almost every time.

I have beaten Dark Souls at least twenty times and on every playthrough beyond the first I beat him first try by running up the stairs, it always works.

Except that it doesn't always work.

I've played through the game several times and never been stuck between them?
It really doesn't depend on luck, just because you die a couple times doesn't make it poor design.

On my first playthrough I've beaten him on 2nd try not even kidding. On every other playthrough on every other starting build I've killed him in 1-3 tries.
That's called casual filter and not poor game design.

>It's very likely to get stuck
no, it isn't. it's easy to get stuck if you insist on moving the same way each time.
there is a difference.

>dodge capra
>run up stairs a little
>kill dogs at chokepoint
>fight capra

what the fuck is so hard about this, it's common sense given the design of the room.

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But that's awesome game design

yes it does you shitter

I haven't read the thread but I'm certain nothing posted in here is actually poor game design and is just people making excuses for their inability to learn the lesson the game is attempting to teach to save their ego.

This. They should have just made the arena 3x larger with foam walls so you bounce off them if you get pinned due to bad movement and also remove 1 dog because 2 is too much of a poor design choice, also remove the stairs because i got stuck under them once and that is obviously bad design.

I think the poin being is that you don't know any of that the first time you walk in, it takes a several of times before you know what you are supposed to do, then to do it, and you can argue that it's the same for every boss, but in most cases you have room to dodge and see what the boss does.

I feel like putting the dogs in there as well was too much. The dogs don't even add anything to the fight, you either kill them in the first minute of the fight or you die. I think having the Capra Demon going immediately on your ass in the smallest boss arena in the entire game would have been enough to test the player's ability to react quickly without being seen as cheap.

Mad online™

I don't know about the rest but Bed of Chaos is atrociously bad game design and you have to be a gigantic contrarian to disagree.

the dogs teach the player the importance of environmental awareness and using the arena to your advantage. The staircase is clearly there for you to run up so the dogs catch up to you way before capra and you kill them, that's the whole puzzle of the fight. Capra by himself is an absolute fucking joke and if he had no dogs nobody would remember him.

Yes
>run in
>did the dogs stagger you? you died, try again
>did you manage to rng past the dogs? gz, you win

The fact that the dogs inside his arena respawn makes me think this areas was a regular level and they just threw Capra in at the last minute.

I'd take Capra with x2 health but not dogs compared to the clusterfuck we have now.

>wahh wahh wahh
shut up toddler

I adore this game but
>game has an item you can easily miss
>you won't realize that you missed something until a few chapters later
>unless you have multiple saves you have to restart the entire game

>game has problems with the camera flipping out when it's close to level geometry
>boss is inside a tiny arena with walls everywhere
>accompanied by 2 mobs that can push the player (and the camera) even closer to those walls
>good design
Soulsdrones out in full force tonight.

>The staircase is clearly there for you to run up so the dogs catch up to you way before capra and you kill them, that's the whole puzzle of the fight
That's hardly a "puzzle" considering that's what most people are going to do when they actually have the chance, the problem is on your first try the dogs are on your ass immediately before you have any chance whatsoever to get a bearing on what the arena looks like.

I'd probably be fine with the dogs if they just gave you a little bit of time after entering the arena before the aggro'd.

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These threads are always nice because they remind you that half of Sup Forums is mouthbreathers that wouldn't notice bad gamedesign if it shat down their throats

>and they just threw Capra in at the last minute
It seems that way, but the undead merchant even mentions the fact that he's there. I can't claim to know how the development went, but I don't imagine they threw the boss in and then brought in the guy to record a new line, which would then need to be cut, mixed and programmed in. None of that seems very "last minute" to me.
It's probably more the case that the dogs were the last minute decision.

That is the whole point of the boss. You sprung a trap, and you have to be able to assess the situation and deal with the pressure put on by the combination of them. And contrary to popular belief you have plenty of time and room to recognize and avoid them when you step in, it just doesn't take you out of all danger which is the beauty of the fight.
The floors could be a bit clearer visually about which will break and it could not push you so much with it's swings even if you block them. That's pretty much it really.

I stopped playing here.
I didn't bother to figure it out, fuck everything after anor londo.

>And contrary to popular belief you have plenty of time and room to recognize and avoid them when you step in, it just doesn't take you out of all danger which is the beauty of the fight.
They can jump you within a second if you get a bad roll

>which is the beauty of the fight.
Which you may not even see if you left your camera options at default.

>reading comprehension

>And contrary to popular belief you have plenty of time and room to recognize and avoid them when you step in
youtube.com/watch?v=LN74ocuBark
The dogs and Capra Demon are literally rushing at him before the animation for exiting the fog wall has finished. That is not "plenty of time", especially for a first time player.

>didn't bother to figure it out
You just hit two big bright balls

Capra Demon blows. Anyone who defends it is an idiot.

Certain parts of New Londo fucking suck too, like that one house with like 8 ghosts who can attack you through fucking walls.

It's to show how you've grown in power, at that low level a Capra Demon has a lot of health and will take many hits to kill, when you meet it lately you will most definetely have a better weapon capable of hitting harder

>it puts me out of my narrow comfort zone so it must have been a last minute decision
Sure wish people wouldn't be so militantly against fighting numbers that they complain about such an obvious premise.

>It's to show how you've grown in power
Too bad it mostly shows how poor the AI is outside of very player-unfriendly environments, where it is offset by limited space, additional enemies, and shit that gets in the player's view.

t. second adventurer

the only objectively hard bosses in this game are O&S and maybe four kings if your dps isn't high enough to avoid the gank

everything else may seem hard or bullshit but once you pay enough attention (die to them) you will realise their patterns and how simple this game is

sens fortress you can run through to the upper bonfire without taking a single hit and hitting r1 literally once given you know what you're doing

What? Capra Demon is in my top 3 boss list. Did you even read my post past the first 4 words?

Wait, really? I loved playing through this game when I was younger on rainy summer days.

There was a way to miss an important quest item in it? How?

It seems like a last minute decision because the arena where you fight Capra is clearly not designed to contain three enemies, one of whom is really big, and which is filled with tree branches and other garbage that obstruct's the player's camera.

Either it is last minute, or it's a plain case of a badly designed boss fight. You take a pick.

My main gripe with Capra is the camera. There is no proper way to keep track of all enemies while at the same time trying to run away from them. The camera automatically turns to face ahead of your character when you sprint and trying to manually turn it around feels like wrestling it against the walls.
There's also the problem that the dogs are usually faster than you are and can attack from two angles at the same time, with different timing making it extremely hard if not impossible to block them both. All the while worrying about what the actual Capra Demon is going to do.
If you run past the Capra Demon after he misses an attack, it's easy to have one dog launch at you, putting you in hitstun, then having the other come at you directly afterwards. This will give the Capra Demon plenty of time to launch another attack and you can easily get stuck in that left corner next to the door.
The idea is neat. Having such an intimidating and aggressive foe come at you immediately after you step out of the fog gate and in a claustrophobic environment is pretty novel and definitely invokes some panic on first-timers. But, it's just not well designed.

>DUDE BLOODBORNE LMAO

just run through the house user, they cannot get to you. new londo can take 5 minutes if you don't stop to fight every enemy

>pretty novel and definitely invokes some panic on first-timers. But, it's just not well designed.
Isn't that the entirety of Dark Souls?

He has a full two seconds of being able to see all the enemies approaching, and they only reach him after another second when he's begun moving out himself. That's hugely beyond the average reaction time for any normal human.

>lob two firebombs
>half of them just die
god DS3 is such trash

Not really. Other bosses don't have that same surprise attack feel.

I'm talking about the "good idea, but not well executed" angle.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=UL1_ht1EdAU

poor game design

It was more directed at the first post but you didn't say anything about actually liking or understanding why the boss was how it was and were still talking about it being last minute.
Sure it is, it's a tight fit but there's room for twice as many in there. It's supposed to restrain your movement. As for camera complaints you have full control over it and the video posted shows it only obscures the enemy when he's moved so that the big easily spottable tree is in between them and he's still locked on.

On the indiana jones guys mission (lindsey) you can miss the "Tier" rune that you need to make spells like summon trapper, summon zombie, and summon horror and you need those spells for puzzles later in the game. Most people won't miss it, it's pretty conspicuous, but it's still shitty design that you can walk right past it, complete the chapter, and then need to restart the entire game.

epic

>there's room for twice as many in there
Which would make the AI even more confused, and the player even less able to move about in the first place. You have to remember that DS enemies have massive, impassable collision boxes.
>As for camera complaints you have full control over it
That video actually has camera recovery turned off, which by default is turned on, and causes the camera to absolutely flip out nearby walls. It's just not well implemented. It still causes some glitching in the start of the video where it gets stuck on the fog wall.

How were you supposed to know that you'd get attacked and instantly killed if you attempted to walk over this bridge?
>Hurr burn marks
There's blood and shit all over the place. Doesn't mean anything.

Should have played Demon's Souls, PCtoddler :^)))

why does it even matter
>oh no I died whatever will I do everything is ruined

The dragon does not instant kill you, even if you're naked, SL1 as along as you're fully healed.

Dark souls is so fucking shit. Everyone says gitgud but it's just terribly designed artificial difficulty. I wish it had gameplay similar to the witcher.

Solaire is such a "bro" that he doesn't bother to warn you about the dragon that's been burning shit right next to him, it actually bothers me that he takes absolutely no notice of it.

More importantly, why does the drake's fire cause significantly more damage on subsequent attacks? If a player gets hit and sees how much (little) damage they receive from the first fire attack, they may try to risk it and run for the open gate. But then the fire attack deals a shitton more damage for some reason.

What gives?

I got my first invasion on this bridge and I was so caught off guard I just kept running onto the bridge to get to him while he just stood and watched me get incenerated over and over until I died. Didn't even gesture
Good times

You can also use the lock on or not sprint, on top of using audio ques, but I've simply not felt an issue of responsiveness with the camera on walls, and this is in a game series with bad input delay and awkward input queuing. Everything else you said is an example of why it's well designed, the movesets of the dogs and the Capra Demon compliment and cover each other and make use of the arena to bring out great pressure.

the only problem with this is you can get stuck on that tiny piece of wall to the right of the stairs. I dont even know how it happens, but the game refused to let me roll off once the dogs and capra were stuck at the top of the stairs

other than that, the fight is braindead easy

The fire attack has odd hitboxes.

>the fight is braindead easy
Doesn't that make it poorly designed? Souls games are supposed to be difficult.

Souls has a long history of piss easy bosses, II being the worst offender

spawn relief over the last boss and if it returns

I still don't know why so many people had issues against him or gaping dragon.
Sure, the dogs might catch you offguard the first time but afterwards it's simple what you should do.

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