Is a summon

>is a summon
>becomes the fayth of another summon
How does this shit even work? Could they not just create an infinite loop of summons to avoid sacrificing real people?

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>Questioning JRPG logic

Pyreflies.

Nobody really controls pyreflies. It's a bit like consciousness creates reality theory.

That is potentially infinite energy. Pyreflies are said to make real the thoughts and dreams of the person they pass through (the summoner). There must be millions of more practical applications than summoning sexy beasts.

>There must be millions of more practical applications than summoning sexy beasts.
Nobody had much interest in researching them with the threat of a flying rape whale coming for them as soon as they started any sciencey or magicky shit

FFX has one of the dumbest stories possible. It helps if you just avoid trying to follow it. Because if you actually think about the story even a little bit, you realize literally everything falls apart. Especially the ending where Yuna's love "wills" Tidus to become a real boy. Since that mechanic exists, literally any one of the Fayth should have been able to come back. Tidus' dad, Yuna's dad, Seymours mom, etc. All of these people had much stronger feelings for a lost loved one than Yuna's weak teenage crush for Tidus. It also makes sending and Yu Yevon completely pointless.

>He accepts X-2 to be canon

>infinite loop of summons to avoid sacrificing real people
For all ethical purposes, summons of people are real people. It would defeat the system in place anyway, summoners travel with companions to grow stronger and by the time they are strong enough they have enough of a bond with a guardian to do the final summoning. And while they say faiyth to not complicate it, it's not a fayth like the others, otherwise the body would be enshrined and could be called upon by other summoners later.

Been a long time since I played it but iirc a fayth just decides it can keep summoning up Tidus for a normal lifespan as a thanks to Yuna for what she did for them.

Only for him to die of an exploding blitzball.

>Been a long time since I played it but iirc a fayth just decides it can keep summoning up Tidus for a normal lifespan as a thanks to Yuna for what she did for them.
Was this explained in FFX-2? Because the ending of FFX didn't say anything about that. They made a huge deal about how Tidus was destined to disappear and the brown boy explains it is out of his control, they are just dead people. Then at the end, you have Yuna standing on a ship saying "I know I'll find him someday..." and then he appears out of nothing. It's total cheese symbolism. But the only way that symbolism works is if Yuna "wished" him to life with her "love".

Squaresoft said that was an accident and that they're sorry.

The fayths didn't really care, they were simply tired as shit but were forced to continue summoning the whole Zanarkand by Yu Yevon, when you defeat Yevon they stop, so Tidus is dismissed too. They are supposed to be free to finally go to the farplane but some bullshit happens in x-2 (I don't really even remember what honestly) and their essence or whatever gets locked out of the farplane. I think it was that original Tidus guy that did it. Anyway Yuna saves the day again and she's like "pretty please" so one of the fayths just summons up Tidus again. X-2 is pretty stupid.

>X-2 is pretty stupid.
So is the first game. FFX-2 was actually trying to come up with a slightly logical conclusion to a story that was braindead retarded. Kind of like Star Wars Episode 3 trying to clean up Episodes 1 and 2. FFX-2 had an impossible task.

Not really, the story in X closes nicely. The fayths fuck off and Tidus is gone. That end bit with him swimming upwards doesn't have to mean he came back, could even be anachronic, just him waking up on Besaid at the start of his adventure. It's just to leave the player with a hopeful "what if" note.

So what you're saying is the symbolism at the end and the entire Yuna plot was pointless. That's the opposite of the game closing nicely in my opinion. But it is par for the course for Final Fantasy.

>Have dozens of spells and dots
>dots become useless at mid- and endgame
>90% of the spells become obsolete at mid- and endgame
FFX has shit balancing.

What? How is pointless? She's spent her whole life cultivating the dream of being a high summoner, she literally falls in love with a dream (Tidus), she finds her dream of being a high summoner is bullshit but decides to go on with it anyway and prevails, Tidus goes poof but she decides to keep hoping to meet him again someday and the game tells you "who know, maybe she does?". It's a nice character arc.

>Especially the ending where Yuna's love "wills" Tidus to become a real boy

If you weren't a complete mong you'd know that Tidus was a creation of the Bahamut Faythe and it was nothing to do with the power of love and everything to do with the Bahamut Faythe deciding to keep dreaming for one more lifetime as a Thank You.

>She's spent her whole life cultivating the dream of being a high summoner
She spends about half her life trying to become a summoner to follow in her fathers footsteps, as that is what all the people around her and pretty much all of Spira expect her to do. But it is a big point in the story that she doesn't really want to do it.

>she literally falls in love with a dream (Tidus)
She has what is equivalent of a teenage crush with Tidus. She thinks he's hot, talks with him a couple times and then they kiss in a pond. This is hardly a strong love story. This is weaker than the love story between Squall and Rinoa.

>she finds her dream of being a high summoner is bullshit but decides to go on with it anyway and prevails
Again, that's not her dream. And she doesn't go along with it. First, she tries to get out of doing it by marrying Seymour. Tricking herself that it will help the people more if she is a symbol. But then she learns how evil Seymour is and tries to send him, which of course fails. After this, she very reluctantly goes back to her pilgrimage, until a few hours later Tidus (finally) is told what this whole trip is about. And of course he jumps in there and tells her how stupid it is and she shouldn't go through with it. Yuna, already looking for an excuse to get out of it and blindly infatuated with Tidus, jumps on his plan to find a way to kill Sin instead of perpetuating the cycle of summoning.

>Tidus goes poof but she decides to keep hoping to meet him again someday and the game tells you "who know, maybe she does?". It's a nice character arc.
But that character arc is totally meaningless if her love wasn't the thing that made Tidus real.

See The game never explains that. The game IMPLIES with a cutscene that Yuna's will or love calls him to life. Now, if that's not actually what is going on, then it means him coming back is either the doing of the Fayth (which is never explained or shown) or just totally random and has no meaning at all. Which Final Fantasy has been guilty of both of these in games preceeding FFX.

Don't forget that all bosses now have the ability to instakill summons, rendering them moot outside of Hail Mary overdrive spam.

I think you underestimate Yuna's resolve. In fact, I think she has a martyr complex going and feels she HAS to die in order to be fulfilled.

>The game IMPLIES with a cutscene that Yuna's will or love calls him to life

No it doesn't. Tidus' connection to the Bahamut Faythe is made extremely blatant. he was the dream of a kid who died young, Bahamut is even the first person you interact with when you start the game.
It also ties directly in to his character, his daddy issues and his idealized sportsball persona. He's literally the dream of a child, in the figurative sense.
Are there seriously people who just up and missed all this?

Wait so Tidus was never a real person? I thought all people in the city were real people who died but were Dreamt of and thus existed in suspended animation as a copy

Tidus is different to the others in Zanarkand, they're summoned by the Faythe on Gagazet. Tidus is an Aeon.

>is a summon
>becomes fayth of another summon

He is just pyreflies. Him "becoming a fayth" is just a change of his pyreflies

>Tidus is an Aeon.
Wait what. Since when?

Since the very beginning. That's why he can see the people who became the Fayths when only Summoners are supposed to.

Infinite energy. Enter Shinra and the lifestream.

You remember the character in X-2 named Shinra who founds Shinra Co. using a machine he invented to draw power from the Farplane?

I didn't miss any of that. But you bringing it up doesn't change any of the points I made. The brown kid, who is a representative of all the people Zanarkand and not just himself, never says he is going to bring Tidus back to life. In fact, he says that once Yu Yevon is defeated, Tidus will disappear. I don't know where you're getting this idea that the brown kid is the one who revives Tidus, because he never stated that at all in FFX. Now, maybe it happened in FFX-2. But I never got through that JPOP disaster.

This leaves three possibilities. One is that Tidus comes back to life because of Yuna's "love", which is very much what they seem to be implying by the International ending of FFX. The second possibility is that the Fayth did revive Tidus at the end, despite the brown kid saying the exact opposite. The third option is that it's some open ended symbol or vision. All of these are very weak. But the only one that makes even a bit of sense is that its tied to Yuna somehow. The other two would be totally empty symbolism with no ties to the story.

Both Tidus and Jecht were dreams or mental projections of the combined people of Zanarkand, who were being used to try and stop the cycle of Yu Yevon. This sets up a whole host of other problems tied to Auron. It makes the whole opening of the game make no sense since Auron shouldn't have the power to go into the dreams of Zanarkand and "call" Tidus to the future. But then, nothing about Auron or the whole story makes sense. Not only can Auron conveniently pull Tidus into the future (when he isn't even a tangible person), but he also conveniently hides the specific stuff he would need to know to complete the very mission he called him to do.

He's not an aeon in the way the game makes you think aeons are i.e. summonable monsters but yes hes technically an aeon since aeons are just dreams of the fayth. Thus all of dream zanarkand is an aeon and sin itself is an aeon

I'm convinced the stuff Auron hides is intentionally left out so that the final twist of the Final Summoning is too much of a shock and the group doesn't have enough time to convince Yuna that they're okay with one of them being sacrificed as well. He also wanted Yuna and Tidus to fall for each other. It's patently obvious in his dialogues with Tidus.

Yeah, I know about the ultimania tying the X games to VII. I just didn't want to type out paragraphs about it.

I think they said the Aeon version of Zanarkand is an actual place you can go to out in the middle of the ocean or something. It's just nobody else would know where exactly it is and the threat of Sin would make going there not ideal.

Auron is an unsent. They have eerie powers.

>And while they say fayth to not complicate it, it's not a fayth like the others

Yes it is, Anima was originally meant to be Seymour's final summon. Obviously the Fayth is just consumed somehow when a new Sin is made.

>It makes the whole opening of the game make no sense since Auron shouldn't have the power to go into the dreams of Zanarkand and "call" Tidus to the future

You are a total brainlet. Zanarkand at the start is a physical place. It wasn't in the future. There was no time travel, the city itself was a reproduction out in the middle of the ocean, guarded by Sin.

This would be fine, except the story never explains that. We just get one line about how Auron didn't tell Tidus anything because "he wouldn't have believed it". But this implies that Auron planned everything to happen the way it did. Which there's no way he could have. He had no way to know Tidus would even meet Yuna, let alone fall in love with her. And even if that was his plan, he dropped Tidus in the fucking water halway across the world from Besaid. The only reasn Tidus found his way there was by one of the worst plot conveniences in gaming history, falling off the Al Bhed boat on route to Al Bhed (which if you look at a map, they would have had to go completely out of their way to even sail next to Besaid from the sunken temple they found Tidus in).

But let's assume he planned ALL this convoluted set of circumstances somehow. It still doesn't explain that once Auron finally meets up with Tidus hours later, he still hides all the important information he needs to know. Not just about why he brought him to the future and Jecht, but even just basic culture and protocol about living in Bedsaid. Instead of helping Tidus, pretty much everyone on the team just sits back and lets him ask stupid questions and disrupt the entire religious/political system. Then chastise him for it afterwards.

This story is a fucking mess. It's actually hurting my head recalling all these stupid inconsistencies. And the fact that I even care about them.

If Auron went into the actual past to the real Zanarkand, then Tidus didn't exist there. He was created after Zanarkand fell, within the mind of the citizens. This means either Auron went into the memories of the Fayth and "called" Tidus as a spirit or that the games developers derped and fucked up their own story by having Tidus alive in the past.

Things get even more stupid when you realize how dumb it is that the Fayth created both Jecht and Tidus. Despite sending Jecht to try and stop Yu Yevon first. Why was Tidus even made? Some kind of backup plan? Man they didn't have much faith in Jecht or their plan then.

Obviously the real answer to every one of these things is that Tidus was written into the story first and everything else was added later during development. And with so many new things being added, the games developers lost track of every plot tangent.

Do you get why this story totally falls apart yet?

>now
What do you mean?

>If Auron went into the actual past to the real Zanarkand, then Tidus didn't exist there

Auron never went into the past. Tidus-Zanarkand isn't the real Zanarkand, the ruins you visit at the end of the game are. How is that hard to understand? Tidus didn't jump a thousand years into the future, there is no time travel.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Try reading the whole post, where I specifically pointed out that Auron was most likely going into the minds of the Fayth. But a previous post I made points out that this creates a whole other set of story breaking issues.

Nice

waste

Tidus was the one they wanted. He was the one based on an IRL legendary hero.
Either Jecht was an unintentional escapeee, or they wanted him to become Sin first thinking he would be more likely to hold back against Tidus (the chat command to deplete his super meter) compared to some random stranger that never met Tidus

But Auron doesn't go into the minds of the Fayth, you're literally just making shit up to create problems for you to have with the plot. The Zanarkand at the start is in an uncharted part of the Ocean. Auron gets there by riding Sin, who is Jecht, who still has some limited Agency over his actions. Auron takes Tidus into Sin, who takes him back to the mainland. At some point he gets washed out and picked up by the Al Bhed. Sin attacks the ship and retakes Tidus, dropping him off at Besaid.

This isn't speculation.

WE LIVE INSIDE A DREAM

Jecht escaped by accident. He went out on a boat for his Blitzball practice and probably got picked up by an Al Bhed ship.

I still want my answer, tho.

But seriously read some indian mythology, they created all that stuff

good fucking thread guys. pretty rare these days no matter the board.

Don't talk like it's over. There's plenty of fun to be had still.

Really stylish bottles.

I'll bring myself to finish X one day.
Yuna makes me angry, though.

Why? She's great. I honestly don't know why people call her a doormat considering how hard she BTFO's Donna.

The material underpinning reality is wholly plastic. There isn't any separate ''Tidus'' anymore than there is a separate ''Yuna.'' They're expressions of them same material, the same energy underpinning all of Spira.

I got stuck at that dragon when you're going to rescue Yuna from her wedding.
I couldn't be arsed to see Auron get petrified and then shattered another time.

Sorry, but while that makes a little more sense than the mess the story provides, it is still very situational and a mess. And I don't recall them explaining that. But who knows, maybe I missed it.

>The Zanarkand at the start is in an uncharted part of the Ocean.
Where in the story is this explained? Zanarkand is always in the north area of the map through the whole game.

And you're saying Auron goes to this tangable Zanarkand somewhere in the middle of the ocean. But Tidus isn't living in a "real" place. He's a manifestation in the mind of the Fayth. Which means Auron would have to make some kind of contact with the Fayth to see Tidus. Which would be at the big wall in Zanarkand, which is the final destination for the pilgrimage.

>you're literally just making shit up to create problems for you to have with the plot
The one who seems to be making stuff up is you, trying to say there's some second Zanarkand in the ocean. Which is even more ridiculous than saying Auron went into the dreams of the Fayth in Zanarkand. You're adding a whole new convoluted element, which still doesn't explain how Auron was able to contact Tidus. Now Sin or the Fayth willing Tidus into reality makes a little more sense. But where the fuck does Auron come into it? How does he even appear in the dream Zanarkand? Is he a pawn of Jecht or the Fayth? That would work, but the story never explains that.

In the end, Auron showing up in dream Zanarkand just seems like an excuse to have a cool FMV.

yeah i will still come to Sup Forums but the days were i could browse for days on end and be entertained while also learning alot are over (for me).

>FMV
I can't for the life of me come up with what that means. Farfetched Masturbatory Vision?

She has the worst voice acting out of the whole party, apologises for every little thing, and generally does fuck all until it's time to poledance the pyreflies away.

Meanwhile Rikku saves Tidus's life, makes rad bombs and salves, and even customises all the party's gear.

Yeah, same here. I can't afford to slack off in my classes like I used to. It's time to move on to bigger and better things.

>But Tidus isn't living in a "real" place. He's a manifestation in the mind of the Fayth

Like an Aeon. Aeons are physical things. The entire city is being summoned by the Fayth on Gagazet. The entire city is a physical summoning just like an Aeon, just like Sin. That's what the Fayth do, they create physical manifestations out of minds and souls.

Auron rode Sin to the summoned Zanarkand, he says that outright. There's no room for debate here, this is all confirmed in plain language in the game.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_motion_video

Final Fantasy was one of the biggest users of FMVs. It was the major selling point for FF games since VII.

thats what i meant. feels good to be understood.

You're confirming what I already said then. And it creates host of problems in the story. But at least we got one answer. Auron got into this dream Zanarkand by riding on Sin.

This is how you can tell someone is nu-Sup Forums

Is it true that Tidus canonically becomes a real person but ends up getting decapitated by a blitz ball land mine or something, so Yuna basically wasted all that time and energy bringing back to life for nothing?

I don't remember having any trouble there. I did get bored right after the temple though, trying to grab everything was a fucking ordeal.

yeah son

If you believe FFX2.5

>You're confirming what I already said then.
I think you may be unable to read, because he's directly contradicting you.

She also doesn't do anything unless the "group" suggests it or demands it. And the one time she doesn't do what the group suggests is because she does what Tidus suggests. So she never really feels like she has any will of her own. In other words, a doormat.

Then in FFX-2, she becomes some outspoken, brash bimbo, like Rinoa in FFVIII. Which makes no sense at all. I mean, its better than being a doormat. But there's zero transition. And it just makes it feel like her whole role in FFX was pointless.

>pretty rare

not really. your standards have just shifted. it's the same as it always was.

>tfw you realize you are Yuna

Feels bad man

Was Yuna the proto-Lightning all along?

Not that guy but Dream Zanarkand is a place in the middle of the ocean where its part reality and part magic dream being held up by the faith on the mountain

Auron being dead and having relations to Jecht was able to enter dream Zanarkand without Sin trying to outright kill him

Sin exists to protect dream Zanarkand because if the old bevelle finds it they might be able to destroy it since zanarkand was on the losing side of the war

When I saw this design I knew FF was dead instantly.

>Then in FFX-2, she becomes some outspoken, brash bimbo, like Rinoa in FFVIII. Which makes no sense at all.

It makes perfect sense. Yuna's whole thing was dying to become a Matyr so everyone else can be happy, then Tidus comes along and becomes a Matyr so she can be happy. The only way she knows how to respond to this is by living it up in her naive, sheltered girl way.
Her character in X-2 is how she deals with grief, she tries to live the way she think he'd want her to live, the way she'd wanted others to live after she died.

He first said that Tidus was living in some other Zanarkand in the middle of the ocean. I said this couldn't be true and Tidus was living within the "dream" Zanarkand. Which is a real place, but only accessible to the Fayth and Sin. Which he then confirmed. It isn't "somewhere in the middle of the ocean" like he was saying. And Auron couldn't just go there. He had to hitch a ride with Sin to get in there. That's the one part I didn't get.

Why did Auron need Tidus anyway? I totally forget

Auron only needed Sin because nobody Sails that far, Sin guards the summoned Zanarkand and prevents people getting close.

No, Lightning is Cloud. Yuna is basically Rinoa and Rosa combined into a character. You know, with any good qualities removed.

I'm more referring to how both characters some crazy how managed to get more than one game, when they're both awful characters and clearly someone's dream girl on the team.

That (was) the heart of this argument. But got lost when people started arguing over how Auron got into Zanarkand. No one seems to be coming up with explanations for The very short answer is that Auron needs Tidus to confront Jecht, who is merged with Sin. But in order to get Tidus to confront Jecht, there's about 30 hours of facepalm worthy circumstances and conveniences that makes Star Wars Episode I look good.

>Sin guards the summoned Zanarkand and prevents people getting close
But also to swim around the planet and nuke people as part of a big prank to have Bevelle keep sacrificing people for no reason.

I don't think Auron planned all the circumstances. He merely tried in every instance to manipulate circumstances to the best of his ability so that Tidus would eventually get to Sin. Meeting Yuna was convenient because she has a reason to be going after Sin being the summoner that was supposed to defeat it, so he figured he'd play along with that and eventually it would end with them going after Sin.

It's a defense system and the guy controlling it is a decayed Husk who has nothing left but his prime directive. Yu Yevon isn't even sentient anymore by the start of the game.

Why didn't the people just live away from the ocean to avoid sin?

Sins do fly.

Sin is still partially sentient at the beginning. Jecht brought Tidus to Besaid intentionally. Heck, it might have even been tacit between Jecht and Auron that the two similarly aged youths would have to work together to undo the cycle.

Yu Yevon has no dialogue in his single appearance, so his personality is unknown. Accepting the doom of the original Zanarkand's he sets forth in creating and maintaining the dream Zanarkand's memory through the surviving citizens. In some respects, he can be considered a tragic character as he is incapable of stopping what he is doing.

His appearance is a mystery as he is never shown in human form. Yu Yevon appears as a bizarre, floating creature with hooks and a glowing emblem of Yevon for a face. The nature of this form is unexplained. It may be that transplanting his soul from each Sin to its successor has diminished or destroyed his true physical form, leaving him in a parasitic, bug-like state. Yu Yevon also may have taken on this form intentionally, perhaps to facilitate his ability to possess aeons. Another possibility is this form is his appearance as a fiend; this is unlikely though, as he retains the ability to summon Dream Zanarkand.

That's a fine explanation for some parts. Like how he meets up with Tidus after he's part of the pilgrimage. But there's still dozens of other issues that make no sense. Like why Auron doesn't explain anything to Tidus. Which Tidus himself gets angry at Auron for late in the game. But Auron has no good explanation for hiding everything from him. It's just bad writing, done because the game would have been 5 hours long if Tidus knew his goal from the start.

"Now" meaning the half-way point I was responding to. Starting from I believe it's Seymour 2, all major bosses have that Banish ability for Aeons.

Yunalesca was batshit crazy by this point, I don't think she cared about actually stopping Sin. Story was pretty dumb, but it fits. Yu Yevon was desperate to try and preserve Zanarkand in someway, fucked up the original summoning for him, went insane and lobotomized himself and actually became Sin, proceeded to bend over Spira for a couple of millennia to get it nice and fucked. I just got up it's too early to dissect a JRPG story dammit. Tidus and Yuna were cute and that's what mattered.

There's a reason the game gives you a million Al Bhed Potions in Bikanel. Check the descriptions.

GO NOW
IF YOU WANT IT

ANOTHER WORLD AWAITS YOU

Why didn't they just live in underground vaults?

>Like why Auron doesn't explain anything to Tidus.
Tidus is a crybaby and wouldn't have the balls to do what he needed. He would've just broken down crying like he always did.