Defend the fact every shrine looks the same and convince me it's better than unique temples...

Defend the fact every shrine looks the same and convince me it's better than unique temples, like the ones in previous 3D Zelda titles.

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OP there is like about 120 of them
Don’t you have any idea how huge this game is?

I can’t.
At the least, they could have used different design elements depending on what region it was in or type of monk it had.

Temples are usually the worst part of old zelda games.

Dungeons like BotW and Zelda 1 are better.

Why?

Because in BotW you get your important abilities right away so you can explore the world right away and play it how you want.

Previous Zelda games block access to an area until you get a unique item, which will get most of its use in 1 main temple and then proceed to be useless. Repeat this pattern with a new item and temple.

As puzzle games the old Zeldas are much better. As an adventure game BotW is much better.

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All the dungeons from 1, 2, and LTTP all has similar aesthetics, but were still awesome. LTTP kind of started making them more unique, but that wasn't really done until Link's Awakening.

So if anything, the Shrines looking the same is a throwback to the original dunegons.

Shrine don't replace the dungeons from the previous games though. The divine beasts and Hyrule castle did. The shrines were just the holes or islands from previous games.

There is no defense, and its not better.

I don't think they're better, but that doesn't mean I don't they're not fun. Chill out, OP.

Shrines are fantastic concept because they are a mean to reward explorations. While in a vacuum they offer nothing special, in the context of the opn world they work incredibly well. Not only do they add enclosed levels to the game, something many Open World lack, but being actual puzzles means that by exploring the player is rewarded with gameplay instead of simple collectibles. Also, they work as visible landmarks and quicktravel points.
They should indeed have more themes and be accompained by longer, unique classic dungeons, but they are a great addition to the series and I hope they keep them.
Something like six unique dungeons and 60 shrines would be perfect.

Fuck off, Shrines are nothing like dungeons in Zelda 1. Zelda 1 dungeons had actual thought out into them rather than the copy paste bullshit that is Shrines.

They built them as a test to the hero of time and to train.

Why wouldn't they have the same visual style?

Also yes I would have liked more actual dungeons myself.

>Defend the fact every shrine looks the same
they look pretty nice
>convince me it's better than unique temples
I wouldn't try to convince you on something I myself don't believe in

Honestly, this would fix shrines for me:

Have a different look and BGM depending on which region they're in.

The divine beasts, especially that new DLC one, have way better puzzles than most "puzzles" from past zelda games. The shrines also tend to have great puzzles. In past Zelda games the themed dungeons would give variety to the world, but BOTW's massive hyrule already does that.

It's not better, only different. If each zone that didn't have a divine beast had an actual dungeon instead the game would almost be perfect.

Temples look and feel nice but they're all pretty fucking basic.I'd be more in favor of temples if the next Zelda jazzes em up a bit

Large temples wouldn't have been a good fit for the world they were shooting for.
Nintendo wanted to make an open world where you can go anywhere at any time, so to break up the monotony of travel and encourage exploration, they essentially split up dungeons into shrines so you can have a short puzzle break in your journey. Even more so the relief of a warp point if the player decided, "You know, this icy mountain sucks, I wanna go to the volcano" the shrine has essentially saved the player's progress and provides an easy point to return to, as well as its primary feature as a short puzzle for a reward.
Is it better than having unique temples for a smaller world? No
Is it worse? No
It's just something different

I guess I'd like you to defend why unique temples are better to begin with first.

The worst part about the shrines is how many combat shrines there are, as well as the worst shrines of all: the shrines that just give you a reward for finding them. Absolutely unforgivable.

>Defend the fact every shrine looks the same
They have different puzzles.

>Defend the fact every shrine looks the same
It's a standarised area as per the lore.

>convince me it's better than unique temples, like the ones in previous 3D Zelda titles
I can and will not.

>Defend the fact every shrine looks the same
They're fun and gameplay is more important than graphics
>and convince me it's better than unique temples, like the ones in previous 3D Zelda titles.
No because they're not

LBW was able to do non-linear dungeons without sequence breaking. No excuses.

Is the look so important?

ALBW didn't have a robust overworld as its core feature.

Shrines aren't a direct replacement for temples. Shrines are something to fill the overworld. They have puzzles that the player can solve to get a reward. If you want to compare them to something in past Zelda games, they're the equivalent of those houses you could enter by burning bushes in LoZ, or those hidden holes you could fall into in OoT and MM or the optional islands in WW (and they are a lot more interesting than either of those).

The closest thing BotW has to classic temples/dungeons are the Divine Beasts. This is something that the older games do better, but BotW broke away from the classic Zelda formula and dungeons weren't the core focus of the game like they were in previous games. BotW was more exploration-driven rather than story driven. In older games, you visit a certain area because the story requires you to retrieve a magical object from there. In BotW, you only visit certain areas because you, as a player, want to. It's a different approach and placing more of an emphasis on shrines/additional areas compared to temples/dungeons made sense for this game.

Shrines are shit AND temples are shit. They're nothing but braindead puzzle rooms for retards.
Should have had some more fucking content on the empty ass overworld.

And every dungeon was piss easy because of it.

I guess the point is that old temples/dungeons were thematically integrated into their environments. The tilesets and textures were appropriate. It made the lore more interesting. BotW's shrines could be rearranged, placed anywhere. Nintendo could've done a Metal Gear Solid: VR Missions entirely of shrines and people would've thought it was a neat spin-off. They're just so... disconnected.

Its similar to Majora's Mask in that the majority of the content is side content.

They are the portal puzzles of the poor.
Wish BoTW had real temples. Shame really.

What if getting into the shrines is the point of them? The shrine itself is pretty much just the treasure/triforce room. After you get inside, if there's a puzzle or fight, it's because finding/opening the shrine was not the actual challenge.

1 at least swapped the palette of the dungeons and considering it was on the NES, it might as well have been a completely different aesthetic.

Both would be the best option but would infuriate casuals

Something about physics puzzles and solving it your way, but to me the latter reeks of lazy puzzle design.

Then why are you comparing them?

Please refrain from shitposting with pictures of XC2. Thanks.

>convince me it's better than unique temples
They can co-exist.

>Because in BotW you get your important abilities right away so you can explore the world right away and play it how you want.

I thought this was BotW's very undoing. With all my best abilities given to me at the beginning it put a damper on my will to explore knowing that odds are I'm not gonna find anything as cool as what I got in the first 3 hours of the game.

The blue color tint and design is a stark contrast to the overworld, so it's less noticeable.

The shrines could have had themes. Even just changing the glowing highlights would go a long way in differentiating each shrine and making them feel like a part of the greater world: red shrines in the mountains, yellow shrines in the desert, the normal cyan in Hyrule Field and the Great Plateau, etc.

I'll fix it for you OP.

Shrines are now connected under the surface, making a great intricate metroidvania labyrinth.

I agree with this. Having everything needed to access the whole world so soon really put a damper on the mystery and fun of exploration, especially when you then realise most adventures lead to a shrine (which don’t have any exploration or distinct aesthetic themselves, it’s always a square room).

I’m aware that it works within the lore but exploring only to find things made for Link isn’t fun for me, I’d like to go into things that are part of the world itself, like with Hyrule Castle. Akkala Citadel would have been great as a larger mini dungeon and so would the Forgotten Temple.

Shouldn't you be off playing Asscreed or doing your 5th playthrough of Witcher 3 or something?

>all of the shrines are underground
>there weren't any shrines above ground that were destroyed/in ruins after Calamity Ganon's attacks mangled the terrain around them
wasted opportunity

>They built them as a test to the hero of time and to train.
Consider Portal 1 and 2. The main point of the rooms is also to test and the early rooms all share the same aesthetic. But whenever you get deeper into the plot, the rooms show wear and interaction with the greater world.

The problem with the shrines in BotW is that they feel completely disconnected from the rest of the game world. The entrances and getting into the shrine is interesting. But once you're inside, you might as well be playing a different game. If there were moments where the broader game world and the inside of the shrine directly interacted or meshed together, then they would be much more interesting.

The testing rooms in Portal 1 became more interesting when when you were able to get out of them and into that orange industrial plex. Another layer is added, when you get back into the testing rooms in Portal 2 and see that they are all broken down and nature as started to take them over; more so when GLADOS starts to actually repair the rooms.

Maybe there could have been an earthquake that cracked one of the shrines in half and one of the tribes started a city inside of it. I don't think there was ever a point where the external world actually references the *inside* of one of the shrines. They might give you hints as to how to get to the entrance, but not the actual shrine content. The only exception I can think of is the one that used the skybox for part of the puzzle.

tldr:
I wish that BotW had tried to integrate the shrines better with the broader world.

If temples are the worst parts of Zelda games what do you actually like? Talking to people in towns? Combat in Zelda is pretty braindead unless you're doing a 3 heart challenge.

Defend the lack of enemy variety in BotW and convince me why this fact shouldn't have removed at least 5 points from BotW's metacritic score.

They are just small puzzles to level up, nothing more. They are not the games core, and you can pretty much do everything in the game doing less than 10 of them. In other games, you grind. Here, you grind puzzles because zelda. Any other question?

I'd fucking love that.

it is an inevitable tradeoff if you want a game on a scale like botw. it would be idiotic to deny that the shrines lack the individual character of unique dungeons, but there are an order of magnitude more of them. clearly attention was paid to create thematic designs in individual regions, the divine beasts and hyrule castle.

the positive argument in favour of shrines, therefore, has to involve an endorsement of the open world. i believe it made the game extremely absorbing in a way at which the last few 3d zeldas had been getting successively worse.

this is the only problem i have with the game
its just reskin and bigger health bloat enemies

an open world game like BOTW could have been so much more exciting if there were a fuck ton more enemy types

>Don’t you have any idea how huge this game is?

is that supposed to be a good thing?

Yes, this one

The enemies in TP were shit though. Their AI was garbage and they didn't react to anything. All you had to do was do whatever move the game wanted you to use on them to progress.

The enemies in BotW aren't hard and they're very predictable. Their difficulty comes with the fact it'll deal 5-10-15 hearts of damage instead of 1. Wew.

>Defend the fact every shrine looks the same
Well, they were built using the same weird Sheikah mystic tech nonsense so it makes sense to make them all consistent with the established lore and setting.
>convince me it's better than unique temples
I won't because I don't believe it is. I will say, however, that they don't actually seem to be ENTIRELY replacing the concept of larger dungeons. I do agree that they are in part why the dungeons suffered because puzzles that could have been part of longer dungeons were instead used as shrines but ultimately, the shrines seem to be replacing how things like heart pieces and such used to be found, such as in small caves or given as quest rewards. I will say that I do like the puzzles in shrines but I don't like how they are self contained pocket dimensions versus being integrated into the actual world and they really do make quests feel pointless because the abolishment of heart pieces strips most of the rewards down to rupees.

I just started a new playthrough on Master Mode with jap voices, this is the first time I'm playing the game again since April.
Does it get better? Right now its just not worth it fighting enemies, aside from getting destroyed (which is to be expected, this is hard mode), the rewards for fighting enemies really don't compensate for the amount of resources you put into fighting them, I found myself reloading a bunch of times to optimize my assaults so I don't waste as many arrows/weapons.

I think its cool that it forces you to think more, I didn't know you could just bomb the arms off the Talus to force him to go down, I used to dodge them in normal.

I'd have loved they added another giant dungeon like Hyrule Castle, with its own music, tons of passages, hidden weapons and stuff.

it doesn't play a better game.

It allowed for the mass production of puzzles that are, on average, higher quality in mechanical design.
Most shrines are made of prefabricated objects that only needed to go through an art pipeline once early on in development. Unlike most games that try this, the game actually does well within the limitations of the art design.
Being great in number and of a good quality means they can be used as a consistent exploration incentive.

Depends on what you mean by better. what I usually do is wait until enemies start sleeping and then sneak in and pick them off one by one. It's usually a one hit kill on the weaker guys, the stronger ones might survive if you use a weak weapon but if you've gotten the rest of them they shouldn't be too rough.

They all look the same because they're all built for the same reason by the same people using the same technology. They aren't better than the unique temples, which is why we have the Vahs, the outdoor dungeons and to a lesser extent the entire overworld having various terrain and challenges to compensate.

At some point it gets better. I don't remember how, because I dropped master mode for several months before picking it up again.
Maybe after I started using buffs from cooking extremely consistently. I also abuse the hell out of the archery bullet time.

>off the while they sleep
I started doing that, but it just feels like cheesing the game.

There's a context sensitive button prompt for doing it, I wouldn't really feel guilty about it.

They look similar to preserve the Sheika aesthetic, which is pretty nice. They don't all look the same, though. They aren't, but they're certainly better than getting only dungeons and jackshit to do on the overworld like in previous games. The sequel should have a mix of the two, but with more emphasis on the dungeons.

You could always drop metal crates on them alternatively you could whip the container from afar and send them into the horizon.

Being sneaky is not cheesing the game. You trade in the excitement of fights for slow approaches.

Nah man, if they didn't want you to do it they wouldn't of made them fall asleep or given you the prompt. Besides, I don't think Lizalfos sleep so you won't be able to do it forever.

Good idea.

*enters test of strength #18*

21 are test of strength and 29 "empty" shrines
And much more than half or the rest are fucking short and awful

Not op, but
>what do you actually like? Talking to people in towns?
yes, that's why MM is the only other zelda I like.

Lizalfos don't sleep, but some of them go into stealth and you can get them if you approach them from behind, and really quietly.

Shrines were fine, I thought the divine beasts were a weak point. They would have been better off as segments of a larger dungeon, where they had a shorter simple puzzle and were more in the vein of a "pre-boss room" from traditional Zelda titles.

That aside I thought the overworld was pretty fucking awesome.

This. XC2 is the one game you do not shitpost with.

Defend the fact that every temple's puzzles were "insert item you just received here"

They needed to be a lot bigger and have actual new enemies in them. You know, be proper dungeons.

Agreed. In some ways it made some sense narratively for them to be the way they are, and you certainly had the main pitch that they took a back seat to the overworld, but I'd still consider them the weakest point of the game.

Hyrule Castle is fucking awesome though.

Will we get more DLCs? I want a huge Hyrule Castle-esque dungeon, maybe a new town/area as well

No, because they just aren't. They were the weakest link in that game for me by far.

Protip: You can't

I agree to some of your points, but shrines being the only reward for exploration get really boring quickly. Every cool place you see you can be sure that there'll be a shrine at the end of it. It loses any surprise and excitement.

Maybe if the shrines themselves were visually and thematically different one from the other it would be much better.

>Hyrule Castle is fucking awesome though.
It certainly is. I hope we get more like that next game.

What are the divine beasts mini-boses?

You're ignoring the fact that Shrines don't replace dungeons, and they're great for what they are

Nobody thinks that, OP. BOTW was great but the shrines got old fast. Fuck the fact that the DLC was just a bunch of new shrines using the same old assets.

The "Empty" shrines have an overworld puzzle

So? Other Zeldas had whole dungeons locked behind overworld puzzles. The divine beasts in this very game are locked behind overworld puzzles.

There are also full shrines WITH overworld puzzles.