Its not a bug its a feature !

>its not a bug its a feature !

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>they think fun-cancelling and wavecheating are intended mechanics

>yfw a smash baby goes on his rant trying to proof his button mash game is part of the FGC

>its not a bug its a feature !

>Competitive party game

Wavedashing? It's an exploit.

L-cancelling totally is intended, the 64 version had z-cancelling and if im not totally wrong L-canceling is even in the games manual.

Wavedashing is unintended though

>one button working differently is enough for players to quit the competitive scene

>Call game a fighting game
>It has digital inputs

I have no problem with platform fighters but digital inputs are literally cancer in a fighting game.

this

Z-canceling was in the manual ye, and also much better (not half lag, but zero lag)

double jumping isn't a bug at all what are you doing user

wavedashing was discovered before the game was released and they didn't remove it, so it's sort of intended?

in any case, combos were not intended in SF2, and Capcom embraced it and it became probably the most iconic thing in FIGHTING GAMES as a whole, while Hakurai ran away from wavedashing

>wavedashing was discovered before the game was released and they didn't remove it, so it's sort of intended?

I wouldnt say that makes it "intended".
They probably just wanted to save development time for other things and were like "meh nobody is ever gonna use this".
Sakurai probably never thought someone would play the game competitivly and thus just left it in.

Also, there was no internet and thus patching it later on was impossible.
You can bet he would have patched that shit out if something similar occured in smash4.

Are you French?

>thus patching it later on was impossible.
It was still included in the PAL version of the game, which did balance adjustments--think of it as a patch.

>tfw don't get to dair spike with marth

which version is used on tourneys? NTSC?

Super Smash Brothers is a fighting game; you know it and there's nothing you can do about it.

yes

>competitive shitposting

On non-international tournament, the local version is used.

Not an argument.

>Not an argument.
Not an argument.

You didn't present one.

>Project M is FUCKING AWESOME
>devs leave it to make their own game
>animations and sfx are shit
>shit character designs all around
holy shit I want to like this game, but they're making it so hard

Real talk though there is no reason to have L-cancel be anything but automated since there's L I T E R A L L Y no situation where you do not use them. No fucking clue why they got rid of it AND kept all the landing lag.

>and thus patching it later on was impossible.

you do know that video games have had multiple release versions for a very long time, with later versions having bug fixes among other changes sometimes, right?

>there's no reason why a game just shouldn't play itself. i want the skill gap lower

>402285279
fuck off

>there is no reason to have L-cancel be anything but automated since there's L I T E R A L L Y no situation where you do not use them.
same reason SF games have weird inputs for special moves instead of Smash-like specials

>No fucking clue why they got rid of it AND kept all the landing lag.
to shit on heavy characters, as always, I fucking hate Sakurai

It was discovered before the game released and intentionally left in. It also enhances the gameplay by raising the skill ceiling, so there's that.

Here's your reply.

you fucking idiot, the combo system that street fighter is known for started unintentionally in street fighter 2.
Skating in Tribes started as an exploit.
sometimes shit happens in games accidentally that becomes part of the metagame. get fuckin good.

>let's make Fox easy to play

Spy in TF2 wouldn’t exist if it wasn’t for game glitches

fox is for boys, falco is for men

If you close your eyes and rely only on your ears that raises the skill ceiling. Why does no one play it that way? Fucking casuals I swear.

yeah I don't think they realized how much important work (animations, designs, sound) they were skipping by using Brawl as their starting point. Icons could be an amazingly fun game and I still fear it won't take off because of how fucking shit the graphics are.

i'm not a smash fag but those comparisons are moot because other games in the series solidified those bugs/exploits as intended mechanics, and designed the games specifically with those in mind. sakurai intentionally gimped as much of that stuff as possible in the future. remember tripping in brawl?

it's not the graphics, it's the art direction, Smash 64 has way less polygons and looks and sounds way better

I mean, maybe that's what you meant, but I wanted to make it clear

>our collectives faces when a disgusting TechDog (tm) multishines past our aesthetic pillar combos

I hope you don't actually believe l-canceling is the only requirement to playing these games at high level.

SF has way more rigid movement though, and jumping is mostly if not entirely offensive in those game. Outside of 3s, most characters have to commit to jump ins with almost defensive options in the air, and with very little movement influence beyond things like axe kick and tatsus. If it had jumps like Smash they'd probably have to add landing recovery to every move or the 50/50 game would be comparable, or even scarier than an anime game.

Not talking in context of melee since obviously that has manual l canceling. He's far from a problem in the later games.

>combos were not intended in SF2
Really? So canceling normal moves into special moves was unintended? Interesting if true.

the intention is to increase the skill ceiling, not to balance things out

of course, Hakurai could made fast characters or fast moves require a somewhat hard to execute L-Cancel to try to balance shit out

correct, you don't even have a combo counter in SF2 vanilla
youtu.be/ZpZMAwdPyKk?t=86
>he got 1 jump in correct, I'm dead
of course, in the following iterations (SF2 champion edition or whatever, SF2T, SSF2, etc) they completely embraced combos and built the games on top of that, even adding Super combos in SSF2T

The combos in Street Fighter 2 were also bugs.

Wavedashing was discovered during playtesting and the team decided to leave it in because it was cool

Sorta. Combos were a design accident; lead producer Noritaka Funamizu noticed that extra strikes were possible during a bug check on the car-smashing bonus stage. He thought that the timing required was too difficult to make it a useful game feature, but left it in as a hidden one.

Basically it's the same situation as Wavedashing. Devs knew about the accidental creation of it, but felt it was too hard to practical be used.

The difference here is that those unintended things became standard features in later entries.
Wavedashing was completely removed from the next entry. I wonder what they meant by that?

literally no one in this thread plays fighting games

>He thought that the timing required was too difficult to make it a useful game feature
this is Michael Pachter levels of assessment, jesus christ

>what are auto canceled aerials
git gud scrub.
I never did fuck I wish I went above 2-2 at local for once in my life.
Fuck this shitty game and the autism it brings.

I don't care about balance. Smash is always a mess of balance. My complaint is that they thought L-cancelling was bad, yet still kept the high landing lag instead of rolling L-canceling into the game to do automatically. I don't care if it makes some characters more broken. I lived through Brawl Meta-Knight just fine. It just feels regressive, and for technical purists you could make a menu choice to make manual if people seriously care that much about showing off.

they meant to make the later entries less competitive, as stated by Sakurai himself

Not an argument.

>Not an argument.
Not an argument.

if you make people able to turn things off, it takes away from the game, not that you care or anything

The competitive scene exists as of today because of that very ability to turn things off like items, stages, tapping up to jump so you can fuck right off with that kind of logic.

Actually, you can't take off tap to jump, you have to fucking deal with it in melee. In addition, removing certain stages and all items isn't to reduce the skill floor like your suggestion of removing the need for L-canceling is, they're banned because they make the game way more unfair for the bottom tiers. Which your suggestion would also do because it would mean no one would want to play anything other than spacies because execution wouldn't matter as much and you could then start SHFFLing with ease.

>SF games have weird inputs for special moves instead of Smash-like specials
It's so they can fit more moves on the character you retard

Again, not talking in context to Melee. Read Melee is Melee. I'm not asking for the existing game to change not that any of it would since nobody is going to. Your arguments only work if I'm talking about Melee. L-canceling doesn't exist anymore.

>they meant to make the later entries less competitive, as stated by Sakurai himself

I laughed when Capcom tried to do the same thing with SFV and didn't even make it feature-rich to compensate

>metafaggotry

>mfw party games take more skill than "competitive" games

>Smash is a party gaem!!!!1

Get ready to get your mind blown. Smash is a platforming fighting game.

>same reason SF games have weird inputs for special moves instead of Smash-like specials
Wrong. They do that because actual fighting games have so many different command and input options that they have to use motion based inputs to fit them all as well as each special having different properties based on the power of the move you input. Stop saying this blatantly dumb shit like a retarded.

Real talk gitting gud at other vidya is easy af after playing melee.

>it's not a bug it's a feature
what is strafejumping
what is b-hop
what is the combo system
honestly so much cool shit happened through unintended means that it's bizarre how no new game made anything new or anything that stands out.

>With Smash the fighting genre takes a step forward in depth rather than remaining stagnant or adding multiple meters and mechanics to simulate complexity
>SFbabbies shit themselves with rage because it's not a reskin of SF2

you're full of shit because nowadays there are enough buttons to completely avoid doing that, so how about you keep this shithole you call a mouth shut before going around insulting people that know more than you?

>people comparing wavedashing to combos in traditional fighting games.
The difference is that the devs of traditional fighting games embraced combos and made them a central mechanic in subsequent games, whereas Sakurai removed wavedashing from Brawl & Smash 4. Why would he remove it from later games if it was an intentional mechanic? The reason why it wasn't removed from Melee is because it probably necessitated rewriting the entire physics of the game, which would've been too much work (people somehow forget that Melee was a launch window GameCube game, and only launched two years after Smash 64, so it was on a tight deadline). If patching existed back then, it would've been patched out, guaranteed.

>Why would he remove it from later games if it was an intentional mechanic?

Nintendo producers don't want you to have fun the 'wrong' way (in ways they didn't intend)

Not really that bizarre. People like shit so much they stop trying to innovate, and instead emulate. That's why most Smash clones just lift character playstyles. They want to play that game with the tweaks they want. That's also how genres grow besides innovation. People tweaking existing ideas and concepts over and over again until a new consistence is found, then that's the gold standard until a new one is found.

I don't even like smash and wish it would disappear as a fighting game, but so many games have mechanics that were discovered like this and later made legitimate.
Jump install in guilty gear for one.

Melee > PM > 64 > Brawl > Tr4sh

But the Melee tourney scene wasn't nearly as prevalent at the time of Brawl's launch as it is now. Why would Nintendo remove wavedashing from Brawl just to spite the couple thousand people that even knew about it in Melee at the time?

Fight sticks only have 6-8 buttons moron. Hell the same is true about controllers and 6 of those buttons are the dedicated power buttons (lmh) and the final two are reserved for multi buttons or special mode inputs. Please tell me how you fit each power of each special (characters typically having 4+ as well as EX), command normals, multi buttons, and mode commands on nothing but "smash" inputs in any way that is logical and intuitive. I'll fucking wait.

>brawl better than 4 by any means besides subspace
get your eyes checked

>know more than you?
Except you clearly don't. You're just a typical Smash player.

>Nintendo dont want you to have fun the 'wrong' way (in ways they didn't intend)
which is why we're so mad, sad and/or salty about it.

fair enough, but i still want a
>new
>fun
>competetive
game that no-one has been playing for atleast 10 years so i finally have a chance at gitting gud
guess you can only choose 2 of the 3 options.

finna test

Sakurai went on record to say that they discovered wave dashing during development, but they didn't think players would really do anything with it. It was removed in Brawl because Sakurai didn't want advanced players to have a major advantage over casuals by utilizing techniques like that. For the same reason Z-cancelling was removed, even though that was in the game since Smash 64.

But all of that is besides the point, anyway. If wave dash adds more depth to the gameplay by giving the players more options, then why make fun of melee players for using it? I don't personally play Melee, since the Cube controller is a piece of shit, but this whole "stop playing competitive party games" meme is just utter shitposting to me.

>Why would Nintendo remove wavedashing from Brawl just to spite the couple thousand people that even knew about it in Melee at the time?

You misunderstand - I said Nintendo producers, plural. The company getting mad at people not having the 'right' fun isn't limited to Melee, you see it in shutting down ROM sites (while using said sites themselves), C&D'ing fangames and mods, terminating YouTube channels for Unity recreations of N64 games - pretty much the equivalent of killing a fly with a nuke, especially when said fly makes them an actual popular trend on YouTube.

At least they gave a shit when they were making it

Unfortunately you're kind of fucked and last new IP fighter was Skullgirls, which more than half a decade old at this point. Everybody has to face the legacy problem nowadays. Your best hope right now for something distancing itself from legacy is probably Soul Calibur 6 but of course I don't know if you consider that series fun.

yeah a huge shit
>tripping

on SF4 you have 2 buttons even on fight sticks (and regular controllers have more buttons available) left for having a Smash-styled dedicated special button
example:
let's replace Ryu's special moveset with
Hadouken: Special button + punch or kick you want + forward
Shoryuken: Special button + punch or kick you want + down
Tatsumaki: Special button + punch or kick you want + back
EX moves: same but 2 punches or 2 kicks

now imagine the nightmare of infinite sonic booms and instant shoryukens on every fucking jump in

What exactly are you trying to say? Could you explain your argument and illustrate it with examples?

It's neither a bug nor an intended feature, it's more like an overlook

6(buttons for inputs)*6(directions standing/crouching) + 6(buttons)*9(directions mid-air) = 36 + 54 = 90 moves; and that's not even counting 2- or 3-button inputs
and while in smash, tilt left and tilt right are the same, for games like Street Fighter, they'd be different cause you're not platforming along with fighting, you get what i'm trying to say..

if you think you actually need all that time to play at a competitive level, you're never going to be good at anything. the only real advantage top players have is getting free rides to tournaments since that's what stops most people from competing.

>tfw smash doc ruined everyone's melee scene
now all we get are tryhard 21 year old pot smoking drop outs who think they're the next mango

Developer intention is meaningless. As a dev, it is no longer "your" game once the players get ahold of it.

is there a way to push Smash "forward" without just aping Melee

the way the characters scoot around the map like seizing retards looks terrible and makes every character seem like the play nearly the same

but Brawl and Smash 4 somehow managed to be way shittier in their own unique ways

They put effort into the game. Brawl had the most modes, the most creative newcomers, new stages of which none were drawn in MS Paint, all new music. Smash 4, on the other hand, couldn't even be fucked to not reuse Brawl's victory themes.

>Smash 4, on the other hand, couldn't even be fucked to not reuse Brawl's victory themes.

So Smash 4 reusing music is bad but Brawl reusing music is a good thing? Brawl doesn't even have that good a main theme compared to 4 or Melee

>imagine the nightmare of infinite sonic booms
why not do what Fantasy Strike did and have them have their own cooldown-like meter like youtu.be/-sUVNqNSo5M?t=6m59s

Brawl
>gives certain stages 1 Melee song

Tr4sh
>reuses Brawl's soundtrack with a few more jungle remixes thrown in

>now imagine the nightmare of infinite sonic booms and instant shoryukens on every fucking jump in

Don't have to imagine it mate

>Brawl
>covers a ton of old songs with FLStudio
>no shut up it's a big number so that means it's good

Regardless of how bad Brawl was, it at least had more effort put into it than 4.
>inb4 that effort doesn't matter because it was only a little

>its not dog shit its a smash player!

because it's a design choice, it's a conscious choice

I was trying to avoid mentioning that, but I guess there's no way around it